We Can Sit But

[Guest xengab]

I've been using the tuck/fold method with my hound, I can now push lightly on his butt and he will sit down. BUT he then leaps into the air when I tell him to come.

I've tried to get him to sit before crossing roads and ppl give him a weird look because of the leap at the end. LOL Yes this is the same dog who WONT jump into a car.

 

He still wont sit when I say the word. Treats are given, pats are given, but he wont do it without me touching his butt to give it a light push.

He will go down, when I say down, but that too ends up with a dog leaping in the air.

 

He's 3yo so not a puppy, has abit of energy to spare compared to other greyhounds.

 

IS this a greyhound thing or just my boy? Any tips on how to fix this without him thinking I dont want him sitting?

[3greytjoys]

Assuming your boy is a retired racing Greyhound, he is preconditioned to leap forward (e.g. when the racing box door opens at the track, Greyhounds are supposed to leap forward to gain full racing speed within 3-5 strides). He is happily and appropriately responding to your call for him to "come".

 

Please read this recent post re: this subject: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/315030-teaching-to-laysit/?p=5868147

[Guest xengab]

oh wow thanks! That makes sense. Glad I didn't tell him NO for doing it and confusing him.

[Guest xengab]

I can get him to do the sit and lay down, just not with words yet. Which he then leaps up to be at my side even from the laying position.

[3greytjoys]

Take baby steps and don't expect too much from him too soon. Learning obedience training is a completely new concept to a racer. You'll have better luck using the capture methods I mentioned in more detailed link/s above. (Two brief snippets copied below.)

 

First, he needs to learn the verbal cue by connecting the word to the natural action. Reward for his good behavior even if his action only lasts a second or two. In time, he will relax more and offer the behavior longer. Three years old is still young for a Greyhound. Since he's young and eager, he'd likely relax more after a little exercise. Keep training opportunities very brief (less than 5 minutes) and fun. If he struggles to understand, stop and try again another day.

 

Brief snippets of my training capture methods:

 

Teaching Down

Be ready with treats.

Watch for dog to do the action naturally (e.g., dog getting ready to lie down after standing for meals or potty breaks).

Capture the dog's natural movement giving it a verbal cue name "down" and immediately provide treat + happy verbal praise.

Practice only when the dog offers the natural movement during the next days/weeks, etc.

 

Teaching Sit

This is highly effective once the hound trusts their human.

Watch for hound to walk towards their bed (or carpet) to lie down naturally.

Get ready with treat in hand, and quickly move closer to the hound.

When hound's rear end touches ground/bed, calmly move over to stand in front of hound to block hound into a natural sit while preventing dog from lying down. Immediately say "sit" + treat, and praise, praise, praise.
Practice periodically when the dog goes to lie down naturally, and the hound will learn "sit".

 

I don't ask Greyhounds for sits on uncomfortable hard surfaces outside, or hard floors inside due to Greyhounds unique body physique, as they're not built for sitting. Some Greys should never be asked to sit due to previous injury.

 

[mansbestfriend]

Hi. Teaching verbal cues "Wait' (when you pause/stand still, before crossing) and "Let's go" (when you begin walking across) is appropriate for walks.

[Guest LazyBlaze]

This is not particularly helpful, but I think the leaping thing sounds totally adorable! I love these hounds and their goofy ways.

 

[cleptogrey]

i find they learn sit from a down position much faster. try this, your dog is in a down- lure him up to a sit and then back down to a down. at classes we call this puppy push-ups. once he is comfortable w/ the sit then keep him in that position a little longer every day. the physical space, form of his body starts to make sense with the word sit. then try a sit from a standing position, luring his head back(do this in a small space so he has to figure out how to sit). WATCH OUT FOR HIS TAIL! he may be holding his tail straight out behind him and that pushes him up and forward. i gently move the tail to the side, it then tucks under the hocks or near them.

 

my female has the fastest sit in the west....my males takes forever and i believe it's related to his size. he just needs to find his bottom and get comfortable. both of mine sit for their meals, treats, etc. but it did not come over night as it does for a smaller breed. i do the wait at corners, with felix's slow sits i would never get to my destination on walks.

[GeorgeofNE]

Expect it to take MUCH longer than with a "regular" dog.

 

I've been training dogs for over 40 years, and I actually gave up on my first Greyhound he was so completely and throughly disinterested in the entire concept!!!

 

Buck (current hound) is somewhat better. He will sit and lay down and it was actually pretty easy to teach him. But when we're outside he is far too nervous about the world to focus on me. So I just work on safe leash walking (not jumping into the road, etc.) cause that's all he can handle.

[XTRAWLD]

IMO it depends on how motivated they are to please you, and to do things for food!

 

Also, their anatomy isn't necessarily built for sitting, so part of the reluctance there would be it hurts to do so, or to do so for a long time. Kasey would sit, and not for very long, I think it actually hurt him to do so, putting pressure on his knees. Ryder however will happily sit there for an extended period of time without a worry.

[Guest xengab]

We do "Stop" and "Walk" on the street already, which he does obey. He also has learned to walk on the green walk signal at the stop lights. (do they use lights when racing??).

 

I had a trainer tell me that long as he is leaping into the heel position to just leave it alone.

 

And yes I am used to regular dogs, heck I taught both my cats to sit, lay and stop on command (verbal and hand signals)..LOL

 

I'll stick with DOWN, and get that into his head firmly. We go out places and having him lay down would be best.

 

AND we FINALLY found his high value treat.

[jetcitywoman]

Even though both of my hounds have learned sit, I don't require it for basic obedience and managed to get them Canine Good Citizen certificates without it. In my opinion, if they're capable of standing calmly and quietly at my knee (and they are, greyhounds are good standers and naturally calm) that should satisfy the "good behavior" criteria. Our CGC teacher took one look at how my dogs stood calmly waiting with me while she dealt with the other uppity dogs in class and told me "good enough, they don't need to sit".

 

Also, the leap thing sounds familiar. Not actually a jump, but my two both interpreted the release command as "launch". LOL!

 

BTW, a 3 year old greyhound is technically adult, but I've found that they still do have some puppy energy. Especially the boys! I think the boys are late bloomers, part of their charm, though.

Edited September 24, 2015 by jetcitywoman

[Guest xengab]

Yes, he still has the puppy energy..LOL But we love it and play with him as much as we can. He fetches balls and toys.

Launch is the right word for what he does, like the space shuttle taking off.

 

If left to his own free will, he just stands with his head leaning against my hip. He will skip along beside me while on walks, always at heel so I dont tell him off.

[Batmom]

As long as he stays sat for the amount of time you want him to, I wouldn't try to dampen his cute response either.

 

My first greyhound learned to sit quite nicely and could do a 4+ minute sit-stay. In class, when we did the longer-distance recalls, no matter how quiet or deadpan my "Come" command, he would gleefully barrel down the ring, and in place of the last few strides he would leap into the air and bump my midsection with his chest ... and then land in a perfect sit in front of me. Who knew obedience could be so much fun?

[XTRAWLD]

Loved the post by Batmom. Awh!

[Guest GreyOrchard]

Many greyhounds find sitting uncomfortable and never choose to sit . I would say maybe 8 out of 10 I have had through my sanctuary over the years never chose to sit. A greyhound vet told me it had more to do with muscles and ligaments than skeletal reasons.

[Guest xengab]

My grey sits on his own when outside, that was the reason why I knew he could do it. He sits a lot on his own in the car too. Gave him a bath in a kiddie wading pool and he sat then too.

 

So I just let him now be, he leaps out of Sit, and Down to be at my side. Sure over time and age that will lessen.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

I respectfully disagree that a greyhound with a previous injury should never be forced to sit. Or that you should never use the hug and tuck method for a greyhound. Remember greyhounds have been handled their entire life. At the track they are handled on a daily basis. Race day they are taken to a room where people pull up their tail, open their mouth, check inside ears, lift up paws, etc. They are extremely used to people picking them up, hugging them, moving them (when they move from track to track in a hauler). There is nothing wrong with gently using the hug and tuck method for teaching a greyhound to sit. I would actually say its safer on a greyhound than any other dog because of the extensive handling they receive during their racing career. You should evaluate your hound's comfort level with you and gently apply pressure. If your hound exhibits any stress behavior, relax the training and try again another day.

 

As far as a hound with an injury (leg break i am assuming you are referring to since the majority of injured greyhounds have a rear right hock fracture), i again disagree. I only foster broken leg hounds or behavior issue hounds (30+). I have taught each and every one of them to sit. I am not having them sit for more than 3-5 seconds, but they all learn to sit. They also learn to go up and down stairs. This includes the two tri-pods that I have had in my house as well. I had one hound that had a hock break and we called her our little "Sentry" as she would sit in the back yard on a mound for 30 minutes plus watching the other hounds mull around the yard.

 

I say if you want to teach your hound to sit, then go ahead. If your hound had an injury, let it heal for at least 6 months before you try to train sit, but after that, have fun. One thing i do agree, greyhounds typically wont hold a sit for very long. Some are not normal greyhounds and will sit as long as any other breed, but at the end of the day they can be taught a reliable sit with 5-10 seconds of hold in place.

 

Chad

[3greytjoys]

I respectfully disagree... that you should never use the hug and tuck method for a greyhound.

 

Here's an example by Pat Miller, CPDT,:

 

"Why not just push the dog into a sit, or “tuck” him into a sit by pressing in gently above the hocks?

Some dogs are reluctant to sit due to back or joint pain, and need to learn to find a way to move into a sit that doesn’t hurt; your push may cause excruciating pain.

 

Other dogs resent being physically manipulated. That may or may not be the reason I had a recent client whose Scottish Terrier caused serious injuries to his prior trainer when she tried to push him into a sit. He resisted her first two push-sit attempts, and on the third try went up her arm with his teeth."

 

Source: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/9_3/features/Training-Your-Dog-Using-Shaping_15792-1.html

Edited October 1, 2015 by 3greytjoys

[Guest xengab]

Thankfully my boy enjoys being hugged, he will even wiggle around if I am kneeling on the ground to get hugged. He loves being loved on and seeks it out.

Plus there is nothing stopping him from moving away from me. One hand goes behind his knees with light pressure, my other hand is on his chest, he could easily turn and walk off. He is also off leash during this training so really nothing more then his willingness to be with me and wanting to please me is getting him to sit.

 

I've pushed on his butt a few times and yes that gets him to sit too but for the most part Ive used the other method. (with leaps happening for both methods:)

[Batmom]

Have used hug-and-fold with many dogs, have never had an "excruciating pain" incident or anything like it. Isn't the only way I've taught the sitting position but it's sure useful. Would also say that if the dog is extremely resistant to human contact, there are other things I'd work on before sitting .....

 

xengab's post above is a great example of Kathleen Gilley's approach -- dog has become accustomed to human contact and enjoys it.

[Guest normaandburrell]

I was taught the tuck method by a UKC trainer when I took Iceman to basic obedience. Once Iceman started sitting for the tuck, she taught me to place my hand on his back and slowly slide it over his butt and down the back of his leg. Sure enough, he eventually began to sit just for the touch on his back, and eventually just for the hand command. And teaching him to sit took only 12 excruciating weeks!

He still doesn't sit well for the verbal command, still does not stay in the sit for long, or do it too often. However, now that he knows how to sit, sometimes he will do it spontaneously, which I think is adorable. I'm sure his thought process is "Does she have a treat in that hand? Will I get it if I sit?

[Ragsysmum]

Have never seen the point of making/teaching a greyhound to sit unless it is one that chooses to do this on it's own. We have had lots of greys and I walk them at a greyhound kennels too, and I have not seen more than a handful sit of their own volition. Why is there any need to make them sit apart from proving you are the boss?

[Batmom]

Ragsysmum, we have taught sit as an amusing thing to do, nothing about proving we're the boss. We also teach things like lie down, shake hands, pounce on the toy, take a bow, etc. -- things to do when the weather isn't conducive to playing outside or when we want a little mental exercise. I don't personally see a NEED for a dog to sit on command, but it is something that most can learn and have no real trouble with.

[Guest xengab]

Mine sits a lot. I brush his teeth every night and without fail he sits for me while doing this. He sits when we bathed him too. He sits when at the coffee shop on the edge of his bed. He sits when he sees the cat doing it. We knew he sat before we got him as the foster mom showed us a photo of him doing it.

 

I am focusing on lay down mostly now, vet said that's most helpful when dealing with dogs. Stop, wait are things he knows now and does 80% of the time. He also walks on command when jogging with me but I think he knew that from the track.