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My Grey Picked Up A Little White Dog Like A Chew Toy


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I have never seen my dog ever posturing, snarling, or barking for any reason so using that as a sign that he is about to defend himself against another dog would never work for me. Most greyhounds that I know don't bark. I know they can though. I just do not believe he was acting in a prey-driven way. But everyone has there own thoughts on that and I asked for comments. Thanks to everyone who did comment. It was very much appreciated.

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Exactly.

Maybe, but Leo's fear aggression (which has now progressed to nervousness and an understanding that we will always get in between him and any other dog and that mommy and daddy are tough), started with him picking up a small white yippy thing not on a leash, that came at him (and then of course started squeaking when he picked it up).

 

Now I'm wondering if that triggered the fear aggression or something, because it sure looked like prey drive at the time, but 2 years later, clearly, he is terrified of non-greyhounds. We went from there, to flat out aggression towards any non-greyhound, to understanding he's afraid. He's still slowly but surely making progress though, he ignores our dog sitter's small dog, loves her lab, and now seems to be fine with all chocolate labs and is considering yellow labs as maybe okay.

Beth, Petey (8 September 2018- ), and Faith (22 March 2019). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know.

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Maybe, but Leo's fear aggression (which has now progressed to nervousness and an understanding that we will always get in between him and any other dog and that mommy and daddy are tough), started with him picking up a small white yippy thing not on a leash, that came at him (and then of course started squeaking when he picked it up).

What I was thinking, that Brandiandwe got at is that a dog picking up an animal in its mouth and shaking it back and forth is predatory behavior, plain and simple. It was obviously triggered by the charging dog, but the relevance here - to me, and I was trying to address the OP's original question about whether she now needs to worry about his interactions with small dogs - is that the owner now knows that the potential for this level of predatory behavior exists and thus, does need to keep a careful eye on interactions with other dogs. Normal, or maybe I should say "appropriate" defensive aggression is barking, snarling, snapping, and posturing to tell the much smaller dog to back off. Obviously this is a breed of dog with a higher inclination toward predatory behavior, and not always well versed in "normal" dog body language since they often aren't socialized well to other breeds at a young age, but the bottom line from my perspective as a trainer is that this wasn't an appropriate response to the situation and therefore wasn't something to just be dismissed as a dog defending itself and never thought of again. Was the other dog the instigator? Yes. Is the owner a bad person? No, of course not. Is the dog a bad dog? No, of course not. But it's worth understanding what happened and the OP filing it away so that in future situations where there's any question about how her dog might respond she can just err on the side of caution.

 

As far as Leo's fear aggression goes, I pretty strongly suspect the anxiety about other dogs was always there on some level, it was just the response that changed after that incident with the dog. And frankly your experience is yet another reason for the OP to be more cautious moving forward until she sees whether it has an effect like that on her dog.

 

By the way, I'm saying all of this only because I know you appreciate discussion about these sorts of things and brought up an interesting point. The OP has clearly dismissed the comments that didn't suit her and that's her prerogative, but I'm going to bow out of the conversation gracefully (?) since I have clients who will actually pay me for my input and believe what I tell them. :P:lol

Edited by NeylasMom

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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As far as Leo's fear aggression goes, I pretty strongly suspect the anxiety about other dogs was always there on some level, it was just the response that changed after that incident with the dog. And frankly your experience is yet another reason for the OP to be more cautious moving forward until she sees whether it has an effect like that on her dog.

 

By the way, I'm saying all of this only because I know you appreciate discussion about these sorts of things and brought up an interesting point. The OP has clearly dismissed the comments that didn't suit her and that's her prerogative, but I'm going to bow out of the conversation gracefully (?) since I have clients who will actually pay me for my input and believe what I tell them. :P:lol

 

Thank you, I hope I haven't bothered you too much, and you know I do always appreciate your input and you made a huge difference in Leo's life. I was more thinking about whether we had done something wrong after the white fluffy incident to trigger his problem, not disagreeing with you.

 

Edited because I can't type.

Edited by PatricksMom

Beth, Petey (8 September 2018- ), and Faith (22 March 2019). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know.

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Unfortunately I will never again be around little dogs without keeping a very close eye on my dog, and will try walking him by avoiding other small dogs. I do understand that what happens once can happen again so it is better to be safe for the sake of both my dog and other dogs. It is the responsible thing to do.

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The thing is that prey drive is manageable and not a disaster. One of mine used to fixate on other dogs at 300-400 metres with full whistling, shaking, frothing at the mouth, before an attempt to hunt them down and an explosion when that was frustrated. She now rarely fixates, can be distracted with treats, and while is nowhere near safe around any small animal, is certainly a lot better than she was. But it is about awareness. I'd suggest, instead if avoiding all small dogs, to start the 'look at me' game and the 'what's that?' game with him using particularly awesome treats.

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Sorry but trying to distract your dog and play LAT or whatever if the small dog is loose or on a flexi and aggressively charging your dog right inits face is not good advice IMHO.

 

That's reasonable if the other dog is behaving well and not constituting a bodily threat right in your dog's face.

 

in the situation like the OP was in, where a small dog is out of control and aggressive then - if you will not allow your dog to deal with it howsoever it feels is appropriate to keep itself safe -:then YOU have to deal with it, which in the split second knee jerk reaction is probably going to be a boot up the backside that may well cause more damage than your greyhound would do. I have had to do this myself unfortunately when my neighbours 2 terriers got loose and attacked my on leash dog. They got shouted at and when one came back again, it got kicked by me.

 

But quite honestly if people allow their dogs - small or otherwise - to aggress and potentially attack your dog ( and how exactly are you or your dog supposed to know whether the dog will actually attack given the extremely bad approach?)then their dog will just have to take the consequences ?

 

i will just add that if your dog is attacked or perceives that it's likely to be attacked in one bad incident unfortunately thay can affect YOUR dog's future behaviour around unknown dogs and make them nervous. So it may not be the reaction of 'picking the dog up' that caused the anxiety but that your dog felt unsafe.

Edited by Amber
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Loca used to pick up little dogs and shake them. I have no doubt that she would have killed them, had there not been intervention, despite the fact there there were one or two little dogs that she ignored. This doesn't seem like defence to me. I suggest you be very, very careful around small dogs.

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Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19.

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IF the small dogs are attacked by someone's greyhound when they are minding their own business and not trying to aggress at or attack the greyhound then yes that is definitely prey drive and completely unacceptable. And i am not saying that picking up and shaking an aggressive dog is acceptable either but it is POSSIBLE the grey is doing it because it's being attacked or perceives that it will be. That is what happened when my old greyhound WAS attacked and bitten multiple times by a jack russell. The JRT walked off looking puffed up totally uninjured (after being in my grey s mouth for about 20 or 30 seconds) . It attacked her for no good reason, she retaliated, she still came off worst.

 

at no other time in the 10 years i owned her did she ever attack or have another dog in her mouth. Therefore i know that it was self defence and believe me if it was prey driven, she could easily have killed that jrt in seconds, she killed rabbits and cats. But she did not predate on small dogs, she picked it up to defend herself whilst being bitten. She did not injure it . So to me that is acceptable for a dog to defend itself. It's not just black and white.

 

But every dog is individual and each situations is individual. Blanket generalisations and statements do not always apply, especially when none of us have ever even laid eyes on this dog or know anything about it.

Edited by Amber
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Sorry but trying to distract your dog and play LAT or whatever if the small dog is loose or on a flexi and aggressively charging your dog right inits face is not good advice IMHO.

That's reasonable if the other dog is behaving well and not constituting a bodily threat right in your dog's face.

in the situation like the OP was in, where a small dog is out of control and aggressive then - if you will not allow your dog to deal with it howsoever it feels is appropriate to keep itself safe -:then YOU have to deal with it, which in the split second knee jerk reaction is probably going to be a boot up the backside that may well cause more damage than your greyhound would do. I have had to do this myself unfortunately when my neighbours 2 terriers got loose and attacked my on leash dog. They got shouted at and when one came back again, it got kicked by me.

 

Did I suggest that when another dog was out of control that the best thing to do was distract my dog? No. But the OP was saying that she would avoid all places with small dogs. This is unrealistic, so the best thing to do is to work with her dog to make sure that when another dog is seen, she can get her dog's attention.

 

When other dogs are out of control, I do deal with them when I can. I swing all of my (4) greyhounds behind me, and put myself between them and the dog. I then shout, kick, do whatever to send the other dog away. I would also add that three of my four greys are muzzled by law. Two of them would definitely kill a small dog, which is much more damage than anything I would do. So I must defend them because they cannot defend themselves.

 

But I stand by what I said. Given the way the conversation had developed, LAT and distracting is the way to go so that the OP can take her dog out and about while managing potential prey drive.

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"But every dog is individual and each situations is individual. Blanket generalisations and statements do not always apply, especially when none of us have ever even laid eyes on this dog or know anything about it. "

 

Re the above, my dog, my grey, is very gentle, well-liked by everyone, not aggressive in any form, never barks or disturbs things, never takes food unless invited to, etc. He is well mannered and well trained, gets along with other dogs, and I do believe he was defending himself in this situation with the white fluffy. I really don't think it was prey-driven in my heart of hearts.

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Guest GreyOrchard

I would certainly not call what your dog did "prey drive." I would call it a reaction to an aggressive little dog.

 

IF IT WAS true prey drive, your greyhound could have easily killed the dog in a few shakes, and your greyhound would have been diving towards the dog to begin with. From what you describe, he waited until the dog was close and verbally threatening. I suspect that small dog might think twice before ever approaching a larger dog like that again.

 

In the meantime, teaching your dog a bit moe self control and the "leave it" cue/command could help in the future.

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Guest AmberGusDad

"But every dog is individual and each situations is individual. Blanket generalisations and statements do not always apply, especially when none of us have ever even laid eyes on this dog or know anything about it. "

 

Re the above, my dog, my grey, is very gentle, well-liked by everyone, not aggressive in any form, never barks or disturbs things, never takes food unless invited to, etc. He is well mannered and well trained, gets along with other dogs, and I do believe he was defending himself in this situation with the white fluffy. I really don't think it was prey-driven in my heart of hearts.

 

Precisely. Only you know the specifics of your situation.

 

Please do not waste your time trying to get the "experts" to abandon their blanket statements re behavior or anything else.

 

My expertise is in human behavior which I practice for pay, but mostly pro bono. It adds credence to the above.

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"But every dog is individual and each situations is individual. Blanket generalisations and statements do not always apply, especially when none of us have ever even laid eyes on this dog or know anything about it. "

 

Re the above, my dog, my grey, is very gentle, well-liked by everyone, not aggressive in any form, never barks or disturbs things, never takes food unless invited to, etc. He is well mannered and well trained, gets along with other dogs, and I do believe he was defending himself in this situation with the white fluffy. I really don't think it was prey-driven in my heart of hearts.

Only you know your dog. I wasn't there and it's true, he could have killed the dog if he wanted to.

siggy_robinw_tbqslg.jpg
Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19.

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in the situation like the OP was in, where a small dog is out of control and aggressive then - if you will not allow your dog to deal with it howsoever it feels is appropriate to keep itself safe -:then YOU have to deal with it, which in the split second knee jerk reaction is probably going to be a boot up the backside that may well cause more damage than your greyhound would do. I have had to do this myself unfortunately when my neighbours 2 terriers got loose and attacked my on leash dog. They got shouted at and when one came back again, it got kicked by me.

 

Prey drive issues aside, I'm sorry, but the person won't be potentially euthanized for protecting their dog against an aggressive but smaller dog, whereas unfairly, the greyhound might. That's the risk the other owner ran when they choose to let their uncontrolled dog of leash become aggressive.

 

Yes, I'd feel badly if I injured someone's dog, but it's my job to keep Leo safe physically (and as mentally safe as I can), and I have and will continue to place myself between him and other dogs. Fortunately, around here the other dog parents respect that he's afraid and steer clear (and leash their dogs appropriately). We encounter one other fear aggressive dog routinely and she used to growl, but both know it, stay well away from each other, and calmly reassure our own, leashed dogs while moving on.

Beth, Petey (8 September 2018- ), and Faith (22 March 2019). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know.

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I'm going to say it one last time and then I'm out. Picking up a dog and shaking it back and forth is predatory behavior. It's not up for debate, that's what IT IS. The problem here as I see it is that people assume this is a derogatory statement about the dog and become defensive. It isn't. I'm pretty sure we all knew when we adopted these dogs that we were adopting dogs that were bred specifically to have high levels of predatory behavior. And, unlike herding dogs for instance, who were bred specifically for the earlier parts of the predatory sequence (stalking/chasing) these guys were bred specifically for the later portion of the sequence (chase, pounce/catch, shake and sometimes, kill). I don't doubt that the OP's dog felt threatened by the small dog, but the bottom line is that the small dog charging toward the OP's dog triggered a prey response.

 

We don't really need to get so hung up on it. It doesn't mean the dog can't safely be around other small dogs in the future in controlled situations. It does warrant caution anytime small dogs are involved, or if her dog is ever threatened by a loose or even leashed but out of control dog again, which the OP has already said she'll practice. Great!

 

 

Precisely. Only you know the specifics of your situation.

 

Please do not waste your time trying to get the "experts" to abandon their blanket statements re behavior or anything else.

 

My expertise is in human behavior which I practice for pay, but mostly pro bono. It adds credence to the above.

I fail to see how your expertise in human behavior qualifies you to talk about aggression in dogs. I'm going to say that my education in dog behavior and training and extensive experience managing play groups and working with aggressive dogs actually does qualify me to talk about it. I also happen to think that that CPDT-KA after my name lends some credence to what I say.

 

 

ETA: To the OP, I just want to clarify that I'm in no way picking on you. I don't think you or your dog did anything wrong and I hope that I've made that abundantly clear. I normally would have bowed out of this thread long ago, but I am just tired of seeing people mislabel or dismiss predatory behavior in these threads. I've seen people post asking for advice because their dog went after their cat with responses that amount to "Don't worry, it probably won't happen again". The problem is that if it does, it's not the people sitting in front of their computers having never even met the dog or seen the behavior in person who are going to suffer the horrible emotions that come with knowing your dog has hurt or killed another animal. So please don't take all of these digressions personally - this is how GT goes sometimes. Those of us who have been on the board for a long time can get fired up and things can occasionally get a little out of hand. ;)

Edited by NeylasMom

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest AmberGusDad

I'm going to say it one last time and then I'm out....

 

No need for further discussion.

 

 

 

Didn't you promise that before?

 

No need for further discussion? The infallible expert has spoken.

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That comment did come across as dismissive, which isn't how I intended it. I edited my response to remove it.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest GreyOrchard

Sorry but trying to distract your dog and play LAT or whatever if the small dog is loose or on a flexi and aggressively charging your dog right inits face is not good advice IMHO.

 

That's reasonable if the other dog is behaving well and not constituting a bodily threat right in your dog's face.

 

in the situation like the OP was in, where a small dog is out of control and aggressive then - if you will not allow your dog to deal with it howsoever it feels is appropriate to keep itself safe -:then YOU have to deal with it, which in the split second knee jerk reaction is probably going to be a boot up the backside that may well cause more damage than your greyhound would do. I have had to do this myself unfortunately when my neighbours 2 terriers got loose and attacked my on leash dog. They got shouted at and when one came back again, it got kicked by me.

 

But quite honestly if people allow their dogs - small or otherwise - to aggress and potentially attack your dog ( and how exactly are you or your dog supposed to know whether the dog will actually attack given the extremely bad approach?)then their dog will just have to take the consequences ?

 

i will just add that if your dog is attacked or perceives that it's likely to be attacked in one bad incident unfortunately thay can affect YOUR dog's future behaviour around unknown dogs and make them nervous. So it may not be the reaction of 'picking the dog up' that caused the anxiety but that your dog felt unsafe.

 

Your answer is the best on this thread! I would add that while he still is likely to be fine around other small well behaved opr well socialized dogs, it is not the size of the dog he really was reacting to, but the behaviour, the body language. And yes, I agree, if one's own dog does not get the feeling that his owner is not going to deal with a threat or is able for a threat, they will indeed do what it takes to alleviate themselves of the threat. In this case, he grabbed the dog and shook it, and did not bite down. Bravo for GreyBoy's greyhound. Now he just needs a bit of training and the owners need to learn how to take over a bit more in such situations.

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My husband once had our girl at the vet's and was standing (with a short leash) at the counter when a tech walked behind them with a small white dog. In a micro second Phoebe had turned and picked up the dog in her mouth! I am not sure who was the most shocked, DH, tech, or small white dog! Luckily she dropped it immediately when told but this also told me to never, ever trust her with small dogs or cats. Maybe she would be fine, maybe she thought this was an extra special treat for going to the vet...who knows.

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Didn't you promise that before?

 

No need for further discussion? The infallible expert has spoken.

 

She's not infallible, but in this case she is right. Folks are free to disagree but it won't make her comments on predatory behavior any less accurate.

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To OP, in your position I would be worrying about another situation like that. In time though, I would just adjust to this knew knowledge of my dog's possible behavior and automatically take precautions. Your dog is totally normal and was well within the canine definition of proper behavior. Unfortunately, we all have to live within our human definition of proper behavior which includes not grabbing obnoxious people & shaking them half to death. That seems a pity sometimes. ;) Try to relax without getting too complacent. Walks can be a joy again, as long as little yappers aren't nipping at your heels or charging you. You'll just learn to automatically call your dogs attention to you & do a calm body block as a just in case. And if necessary you may have to boot kick a little fluffy, but hopefully it won't come to that again.

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Guest mom23greys

To OP, in your position I would be worrying about another situation like that. In time though, I would just adjust to this knew knowledge of my dog's possible behavior and automatically take precautions. Your dog is totally normal and was well within the canine definition of proper behavior. Unfortunately, we all have to live within our human definition of proper behavior which includes not grabbing obnoxious people & shaking them half to death. That seems a pity sometimes. Try to relax without getting too complacent. Walks can be a joy again, as long as little yappers aren't nipping at your heels or charging you. You'll just learn to automatically call your dogs attention to you & do a calm body block as a just in case. And if necessary you may have to boot kick a little fluffy, but hopefully it won't come to that again.

 

Agree completely with Kudzu! Had a similar experience, however it was in a hotel hallway in Dewey with my boy Nemesis who is not cat or small-dog safe. Unfortunately, the three men on other end of the retractable leash paid no heed to my warning. Fortunately, the little fluffy was not injured. My boy did slip his collar, but didn't get out (thankfully!) I immediately went out and bought a harness, plus a double-clip leash. I know this could happen again — so being aware and taking precautions is my best defense.

 

BTW, Nemesis did catch and kill an unsuspecting groundhog that thought grazing in our fenced in backyard was a good idea. Guess the critter missed the "Greyhounds at Play" sign ^_^ I felt terrible, but I know my boy was just doing what he was born/bred to do.

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Once again, I am not going to punish my beautiful, calm grey for the inconsiderate behavior of another dog owner. My dog's behavior was not prey driven. I am absolutely convinced of that now. We were out for a walk this morning and a rabbit hopped right across his yard and he did absolutely nothing. He was protecting himself from an aggressive dog. We are not "weak" dog owners. Our dogs are welcome anywhere because they do display good behavior.

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