How Long Before It's "safe" To Let Them Off Their Lead?

[Guest GreyOrchard]

 

There are dogs not suited to being off leash. There are dogs that can be suited to it in the appropriate situations. I have never advocated that anyone ELSE off leash their dog. My point has always been that most dogs aren't going to have a constantly worked on recall that is appropriate to being given off leash privileges, but that does not mean that *greyhounds* in and of the fact that they are greyhounds cannot be. Considering most people feel that blanket statements aren't good, it's amazing how well this particular one has taken a deep hold. And that is fine in the sense that most dogs have no business being off leash, and maybe this is just an easier way to ensure that fact, but when it results in people of one opinion guilt tripping those who don't prescribe to that particular train of thought... that is not okay.

 

Regardless, of the off-leash debate, it is extremely rude to point blank suggest that someone is going to cause their dog's death. That wouldn't be appropriate in any situation, and the off leash/on leash debate is no exception. If you want to say that you don't feel comfortable with that for your own dogs, that is a very fair thing to say. If you want to say that it would give you a heart attack and you would always be worrying and so you won't do it, that's fair. If you want to say that if anything happened to your dog while it was off leash that YOU would feel responsible, that is fair. An opinion would be to say "I think it is safest to keep dogs on leash as a lot can happen when they're free, some of which is out of your control and it's always possible for something bad to happen, no matter how careful you are being" vs "I just pray that you never have to post a heartbreaking post that your dog met an untimely death that could have been prevented." That's not an opinion, it's a judgement, and it's uncalled for. If you want to think it in your head, that's fine, but there's no need to voice that. Everyone on this forum loves their dogs, and I'm sorry if you don't agree, but I think it's rude to suggest otherwise. Every single person on this forum is going to make different choices and decisions for their dog in all aspects of life, and no one has a right to judge those decisions (at least in written form, what happens in your head is your own business) whether they are about off leashing, treating or not treating for osteosarcoma, or feeding kibble vs. raw. We all make decisions for OUR dogs based on what we feel is best for them overall. We all take certain risks with our dogs that we have decided are acceptable to us given the benefits that the dogs receive from it. I might try to counsel someone that my opinion is that raw is not the best option to feed (just as an example, since I don't actually have a strong feeling on this particular topic) because of x, y, z. But it would be rude for me to tell them their dog is going to die a preventable death from food poisoning or intestinal obstruction because they decide to feed raw. It's not an opinion at that point. Hey, maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but I really don't think anyone here would appreciate that if it was turned around.

 

 

No, of course not. It's never safe to let a dog off leash near traffic. And of course, even if you have a solid recall in other situations it can always fail. And of course there are always dogs that will not have as strong a recall under any circumstance. I simply used your example because it's a very common accident that everyone on here fears, and while recall may not work at least if you have one it's an option.

 

"These dogs" have been off leash for two thousand years and more and our greyhounds are descended from them.

 

They are, in fact, particularly well suited to being off leash IF they are properly trained.

 

Seven hundred years ago, let's say in France, if 4 nobles went out on a 3 day hunting party, each bringing let's say 30 greyhouunds each, HOW do you think they got them back? Clicker training? Extendable leads?

 

No.

 

They trained them to heed the hunting horn and the huntsman's call. They did not "train" them in organized classes with poodles and Labs....they conditioned them to respond to certain things.

 

They did not just go gallopping off with 90 greyhounds and hope the greyhounds all followed, all got along with each other, and did not attack other people's livestock or the king's deer. .

 

They trained them. But not like we are trying to train them today. They were better at it, smarter at it.

 

If you don't want to train or condition your dog in recall, that's fine. That's your choice. However, to say they are "not suited" to being off leash is completely the opposite of the historical record. They have in fact only been in "confinement" for about 100-150 years.....before that? About 1800 years and more of not being confined.

Edited September 9, 2015 by GreyOrchard

[Guest GreyOrchard]

We rarely use a leash regardless of the situation. I see the whole thing as very simple. It all comes down to what motivates the dog and the character of the dog. If the dog would rather be beside you then 100 yards away then you have a chance. If the dog is just as happy wandering off in the opposite direction than I wouldn't risk it. Take the dog to a fully enclosed area. Let it go and walk away. Does it follow you? When it runs, does it run around you or at you? Introduce other dogs. After checking them out does your dog come back to you? These are good signs. Good recall is nice to have but it is not enough to keep a dog safe. I feel safer with a dog that has a natural tendency to make the right decisions.

 

And before letting the dog go in an unfenced area the assumption is that the location is safe from traffic and dangerous terrain, and that you have spent a great deal of time bonding with your dog on long walks in many different locations (this can take months, maybe years).

 

And under all circumstances, anytime any dog is off leash there is a risk that it could end in tragedy. I have made the conscious choice that the risk is worth giving my dog greater freedom. If you can't accept this risk as a reality then don't do it.

 

I have posted these videos before on this forum. This is what I mean by the right character. The behaviours exhibited are in no way trained. "They are natural". In fact we don't do any training at all. My dog has never heard the word "heel" despite the video titles. This is just what he does.

 

https://youtu.be/u7PVpaplIfI

 

https://youtu.be/txIBV957OQU

 

 

Fabulous post. Greyhounds have it in them to follow, to stay with the pack, to be utterly biddable. Racing has interfered with that. These dogs were selectively bred to do so, and this was then further impressed upon them through a kind of training that does not happen in sterile, controlled, organized little training classes today.

[Guest GreyOrchard]

You should know that most groups in the US require adopters to agree to never let their hounds off leash in an unfenced area, so there are a lot of people here who will say "never, no exceptions ". Just wanted to throw that out since I don't remember seeing it specifically mentioned. That's not to say you should disregard the people saying never, just know part of where it comes from. We've had it hammered in that it is not something we can ever, ever do because of the nature of sighthounds.

 

The "nature" of sighthounds has never been fully explored by any author of any greyhound book that I know of.

 

The myth of offleash greyhounds is fear mongering based on lack of knowledge and lack of experience. To put it another way, it is NOT based on the experience of taking groups of greyhounds - carefully prepared greyhounds - off leash in vast fields. It is based on fear.

[Guest GreyOrchard]

I'm in the "It depends on the dog" category. My Henry never lets me out of his sight or hearing and I trust him off leash in quiet areas. Bree has very selective hearing plus a stubborn streak and I would never trust her.

 

GreyOrchard's book, "Understanding Greyhounds, Our Companions Through the Ages," is fascinating and clearly links our modern grey's behavior with their 2+ thousand year history of working with people. The section on recall is great. My only concern about the book is it is written about UK greyhounds and some things are different in the USA, so if you are in the States you need to be alert to the differences.

 

I do let both my greys run off leash at a beach near my folks' home on Puget Sound. The beach is enclosed by cliffs, a headland and a deep stream so they can't go far. Plus, I can see the entire beach to make sure there are no small dogs or toddlers around. The dogs love it, but never seem to learn that salt water is not good to drink.

 

I'm in the "It depends on the dog" category. My Henry never lets me out of his sight or hearing and I trust him off leash in quiet areas. Bree has very selective hearing plus a stubborn streak and I would never trust her.

 

GreyOrchard's book, "Understanding Greyhounds, Our Companions Through the Ages," is fascinating and clearly links our modern grey's behavior with their 2+ thousand year history of working with people. The section on recall is great. My only concern about the book is it is written about UK greyhounds and some things are different in the USA, so if you are in the States you need to be alert to the differences.

 

I do let both my greys run off leash at a beach near my folks' home on Puget Sound. The beach is enclosed by cliffs, a headland and a deep stream so they can't go far. Plus, I can see the entire beach to make sure there are no small dogs or toddlers around. The dogs love it, but never seem to learn that salt water is not good to drink.

 

Thanks for buying the book! I spent a lot of time on that recall chapter precisely because of the fear that is out there. The book is not really written about UK/Irish greyhounds, but all greyhounds. They are all from the same stock that went out on hunts through European forests and are descended from the dogs that came back, that stayed with the pack, that listened to the huntman's horn or his call, that wanted to be with their people more than they wanted to hunt on their own. THESE are "our" greyhounds.

[Guest GreyOrchard]

Today I just looked in at the forum for a brief glance, never expecting to get involved in several replies.

 

I feel enormous sorrow for the dogs who will never know what it is to run on a beach, to stretch and run and feel the speed of their streamlined bodies and their hearts pounding and their lungs working.

 

Every greyhound has their limits as to how much and where and when they can be safely off leash. Part of this depends on your relationship with your greyhound, and part of this depends on taking the time to train your greyhound. Part of the training problem, especially in the US, is that typical recall classes are just not going to work. These are sighthounds, they are wired differently (has anyone here ever read Ray and Lorna Coppinger's groundbreaking book?) , and they need to be approached differently in terms of recall.

 

If you don't have a good close relationship with your greyhound, and you can't be bothered to put the time in, then absolutely don't risk letting your greyhound off leash.

 

However, please don't fool yourselves and say "they can't be trusted" or "I went to training classes and it didn't work" or "all greyhounds are dangerous off leash" -

 

Rather, it is humans in the 21st century who can't be trusted to figure out how to do it. On top of that, we are having to "un-do" some of their individual conditioning they got at the track, and bring out what their core temperament is.

 

Have you ever noticed anyone posting something like this: "my greyhound got out the front door...we all went crazy looking for her....and 30 minutes later she was back home! Boy were we lucky!"

 

No, they were not lucky. That dog was "listening" to its homing instinct, its reflex to "stay with the pack/family." Sure, a few sniffs around the neighbourhood but then that pack instinct kicks in. "I better go home...." she thinks.

 

But what about the greyhounds who get loose and are gone for many hours or days? Those are greyhounds who still have not yet shed what racing conditioning has done to them, who are not yet feeling attached enough to the home pack. Of course there are instances where a greyhound gets loose in an unknown and frightening area....but that has nothing to do with recall!!! That has to do with instinct taking over and them becoming semi-feral in trying to survive.

 

Being off leash is not "all or nothing". It should happen in small steps, tiny tiny baby steps. If you don't take baby steps, then you could be taking risks. Over time, I learned that some greyhounds in my care needed more off leash training than others. Some were excellent, others not. Every dog is a little different.

 

I do think it is high time we stopped blaming greyhounds for being innately "bad", however, and really start blaming ourselves for not being better.

Edited September 9, 2015 by GreyOrchard

[Guest GreyOrchard]

On Facebook there is a group of greyhound and lurcher owners based in Dublin. They have formed a sort of walking group called the Sighthound Social Club. It's a closed group, but ask to join and see how they do leashed and off leash walks in the city of Dublin. Sometimes they have large group walks, and sometimes someone will post that they will be in a certain park at a certain time and would anyone like to join her....there are lots of photos!

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1503590756585822/

 

and here's the intro:

 

This page is about celebrating, enjoying, learning, organising dog walks and sharing stories and photos of greyhounds, lurchers and other sighthounds as pets. All posts should be positive and /or informative.

Feel free to discuss health issues, diet, behaviour, first aid, supplements, illnesses and injuries but of course be aware that serious medical issues should be resolved by a vet.

All of us here have rescued sighthounds and obviously care about their welfare. We have all seen hounds in awful situations. I am very happy to share pictures of hounds looking for homes when someone is actively looking for another hound to join their family. However I don't want people to feel upset, pressurised or guilty etc.. by photos of cruelty, neglect, rescue/foster pleas etc... So I very respectfully and politely remind everyone that this is not a rescue page or an anti-racing page. We're here to celebrate what great pets sighthounds are . Therefore please do not share any upsetting posts as they will be removed.

Lastly, I'm not keen on advertising on the page. I don't mind chatting about home boarding, food suppliers and that kind of thing, but if you want to advertise a hound related service then please contact me before posting.

So please enjoy the page! Feel free and don't be shy to start conversations, ask questions, organise walks, share photos and enjoy everything to do with sighthounds. If anyone has any questions or if there is an inappropriate post, please let me know and it will be sorted.

Thanks everyone, It's the whole group that makes this page what it is

[Guest DarkHorse]

Today I just looked in at the forum for a brief glance, never expecting to get involved in several replies.

 

I feel enormous sorrow for the dogs who will never know what it is to run on a beach, to stretch and run and feel the speed of their streamlined bodies and their hearts pounding and their lungs working.

 

Every greyhound has their limits as to how much and where and when they can be safely off leash. Part of this depends on your relationship with your greyhound, and part of this depends on taking the time to train your greyhound. Part of the training problem, especially in the US, is that typical recall classes are just not going to work. These are sighthounds, they are wired differently (has anyone here ever read Ray and Lorna Coppinger's groundbreaking book?) , and they need to be approached differently in terms of recall.

 

If you don't have a good close relationship with your greyhound, and you can't be bothered to put the time in, then absolutely don't risk letting your greyhound off leash.

 

However, please don't fool yourselves and say "they can't be trusted" or "I went to training classes and it didn't work" or "all greyhounds are dangerous off leash" -

 

Rather, it is humans in the 21st century who can't be trusted to figure out how to do it. On top of that, we are having to "un-do" some of their individual conditioning they got at the track, and bring out what their core temperament is.

 

Have you ever noticed anyone posting something like this: "my greyhound got out the front door...we all went crazy looking for her....and 30 minutes later she was back home! Boy were we lucky!"

 

No, they were not lucky. That dog was "listening" to its homing instinct, its reflex to "stay with the pack/family." Sure, a few sniffs around the neighbourhood but then that pack instinct kicks in. "I better go home...." she thinks.

 

But what about the greyhounds who get loose and are gone for many hours or days? Those are greyhounds who still have not yet shed what racing conditioning has done to them, who are not yet feeling attached enough to the home pack. Of course there are instances where a greyhound gets loose in an unknown and frightening area....but that has nothing to do with recall!!! That has to do with instinct taking over and them becoming semi-feral in trying to survive.

 

Being off leash is not "all or nothing". It should happen in small steps, tiny tiny baby steps. If you don't take baby steps, then you could be taking risks. Over time, I learned that some greyhounds in my care needed more off leash training than others. Some were excellent, others not. Every dog is a little different.

 

I do think it is high time we stopped blaming greyhounds for being innately "bad", however, and really start blaming ourselves for not being better.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is just as rude and unnecessary as saying that anyone who lets their grey off-leash is automatically putting it in extreme danger.

 

Not all dogs are the same. Not all situations are the same. People should choose what is right for them and their dogs and definitely should not feel like their dog is missing out just because it is never off-leash in an unsecured area.

 

I will not willing let my dogs off-leash when uncontained. I have done seven years of progressive training with Dexter, exactly the baby steps that you are talking about. And I still won't let him run completely free.

 

He gets plenty of running, let's be clear about that. He runs in our big back yard several times a day. During good weather, we go to the dog park once or twice a week, where he can tear around a space much bigger than any dog track. One park even has a little beach area and a pond. He's even been taken down to the river on a long-lead for swims. Hell, I've taken him lure-coursing at a secure course (which he didn't care for and decided to poop instead of chase the lure).

 

Dexter's recall is fairly good. Not perfect, but we still work on it and he's steadily improving. But I still won't let him loose, because even if he seems perfect, I don't want to trust that and have the one time it fails be the one time he gets hurt. Because he hurts himself enough as it is in contained spaces where I can manage the dangers. Because we're almost always in cities and usually less than a minute away from a busy street, and even him knowing his pack and wanting to come back to it won't protect him from getting hit by a car if he feels the need to play "come catch me" for even a minute. Which is what happened with Dexter, despite him knowing his pack so well that he always circles us and checks in with us even in a very full dog park.

 

Does this make me lazy or stupid about my training? I don't think so. I've done a lot of work on it, which is why he does stick with us at parks and always comes at his whistle when we're in contained spaces. Does it mean he's some poor dog who needs to be pitied? I also don't think so. He's happy and healthy and gets plenty of fun, adventure, and exercise.

 

So let's try not to throw stones at one another. People who off-leash their dogs are not uncaring idiots who are just asking to lose their pup. People who don't are not lazy and uninformed idiots who are denying their pup an essential experience. Both can be, sure, but most of the time, they are loving owners who have assessed their situation and their dog(s) and made what seems to be the right call to them. We can explain our respective positions without ad-hominem attacks on one another.

[Guest GreyOrchard]

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is just as rude and unnecessary as saying that anyone who lets their grey off-leash is automatically putting it in extreme danger.

 

Not all dogs are the same. Not all situations are the same. People should choose what is right for them and their dogs and definitely should not feel like their dog is missing out just because it is never off-leash in an unsecured area.

 

I will not willing let my dogs off-leash when uncontained. I have done seven years of progressive training with Dexter, exactly the baby steps that you are talking about. And I still won't let him run completely free.

 

He gets plenty of running, let's be clear about that. He runs in our big back yard several times a day. During good weather, we go to the dog park once or twice a week, where he can tear around a space much bigger than any dog track. One park even has a little beach area and a pond. He's even been taken down to the river on a long-lead for swims. Hell, I've taken him lure-coursing at a secure course (which he didn't care for and decided to poop instead of chase the lure).

 

Dexter's recall is fairly good. Not perfect, but we still work on it and he's steadily improving. But I still won't let him loose, because even if he seems perfect, I don't want to trust that and have the one time it fails be the one time he gets hurt. Because he hurts himself enough as it is in contained spaces where I can manage the dangers. Because we're almost always in cities and usually less than a minute away from a busy street, and even him knowing his pack and wanting to come back to it won't protect him from getting hit by a car if he feels the need to play "come catch me" for even a minute. Which is what happened with Dexter, despite him knowing his pack so well that he always circles us and checks in with us even in a very full dog park.

 

Does this make me lazy or stupid about my training? I don't think so. I've done a lot of work on it, which is why he does stick with us at parks and always comes at his whistle when we're in contained spaces. Does it mean he's some poor dog who needs to be pitied? I also don't think so. He's happy and healthy and gets plenty of fun, adventure, and exercise.

 

So let's try not to throw stones at one another. People who off-leash their dogs are not uncaring idiots who are just asking to lose their pup. People who don't are not lazy and uninformed idiots who are denying their pup an essential experience. Both can be, sure, but most of the time, they are loving owners who have assessed their situation and their dog(s) and made what seems to be the right call to them. We can explain our respective positions without ad-hominem attacks on one another.

 

The fact that your dog gets plenty of running is great. My impression here is that many greyhounds don't, and this is due to a view that has permeated the pet greyhound community. My impression is that the "never ever" mentality is based on fear and lack of knowledge. One of the more popular pet greyhound advocates in the US I know insists on "never ever". The crazy coincidence is that I am from the US and in fact used to live very close to her. I used to go out riding for miles with a sighthound alongside us.

 

Am not trying to throw stones, but to raise awareness that under certain circumstances, and taking things step by step, people would be amazed at how reliable their greyhounds can be. Blanket statements like "greyhounds are not suitable" is not an informed statement.

 

The reality is also that sighthounds ARE wired differently than other dogs. If we adapt conventional recall training to sighthounds instead of getting sighthounds to adapt to typical non-sighthound recall - and then, rather oddly faulting them when they "don't get it" - many of us would have a lot better experiences.

 

If all our greyhounds are assumed to be rotten at recall, I suggest that we have been doing recall in a way that needs to be improved. The way it gets taught generally is not sufficient for sighthounds.

Edited September 9, 2015 by GreyOrchard

[Guest GreyOrchard]

Of my six I only let Harley off lead and that was at the country club where I worked when it was closed, on my friends ranch where there were fences acres away or at select places where directions began with "turn off the paved road".

 

Sometimes when my mind is wandering around I marvel at the difference in off lead acceptance in the US and UK. While I totally understand that they are sighthounds and hard wired to work on their own I sometimes wonder if the US upbringing might somehow make them less responsive to recall. Here they can be whelped on one farm, grow up on another, be sent to a finishing farm then go on to multiple tracks, trainers and kennel helpers. To the best of my knowledge that isn't how it works in the UK.

 

I am not in the UK, I am in Ireland. Big difference.

 

The raising and training of greyhounds in Ireland and the UK makes them no more able for recall than the US ones. Some of them are very institutionalized and don't even wag their tails. Some I have had were so "switched off" that it took months just to learn their names. Ireland produces just about the same amount of greyhound annually as the US, and Ireland is a country of only 4 and a half million people. It can be very institutionalized here. And in the UK. I should say the UK and Ireland have different systems.

[JohnF]

And isn't it the case that North America has so much more true wilderness and open spaces into which they can get lost. Here in the UK the only truly open and unfenced place Peggy goes free is on the beach. Never on Dartmoor or other open moors as she could chase sheep as well as getting lost. To me, letting her off leash in a fenced field where there is permission is actually 'letting her free'.

[KickReturn]

 

"These dogs" have been off leash for two thousand years and more and our greyhounds are descended from them.

 

They are, in fact, particularly well suited to being off leash IF they are properly trained.

 

Seven hundred years ago, let's say in France, if 4 nobles went out on a 3 day hunting party, each bringing let's say 30 greyhouunds each, HOW do you think they got them back? Clicker training? Extendable leads?

 

No.

 

 

As a committed off-leasher this is exactly how I look at the issue except for one major detail you overlook - seven hundred years ago a greyhound was not in danger of being squashed by a truck going 100 km/h!! We actually have to be better then our ancestors if we want to keep our dogs safe. Most of us live in urban environments with a host of dangers of which our ancestors couldn't have dreamed.

Edited September 9, 2015 by KickReturn

[Guest Amber]

The other big problem apart from traffic, is that by and large we (modern pet owners ) don't want them to hunt and kill prey. Or be hurt in the chase e.g. by barbed wire or large/ fierce quarry, such as deer or foxes. Or worse, get in with livestock - though Irish bred greyhounds that I've known seem to be quite respectful of large stock, sheep and lambs less so ie show interest in lambs whilst on leash

 

I do agree with trying to train greyhounds to off leash if the dog has the right temperament, but it is difficult to find good areas free of prey animals and through mistakes I've become more cautious.

 

Edtited to add : these issues would be a concern with any breed of dog that has a high prey / chase drive. I have seen other breed dogs chasing deer though and they give up and return to their owners very quickly, without the speed or intensity of a greyhound giving chase.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Amber

[Guest Kryspen]

I'm another 'never', unless you're in a totally enclosed area.

 

I remember that years ago I read a book by a professional dog trainer. They said that their dogs were always kept on leads when out in public because the dogs, are dogs and could well forget themselves if they saw some sort of distraction. And those dogs weren't greyhounds, either!

[Guest GreyOrchard]

And isn't it the case that North America has so much more true wilderness and open spaces into which they can get lost. Here in the UK the only truly open and unfenced place Peggy goes free is on the beach. Never on Dartmoor or other open moors as she could chase sheep as well as getting lost. To me, letting her off leash in a fenced field where there is permission is actually 'letting her free'.

Are you saying the only truly open and unfenced place in England, Wales or Scotland is the beach? Or just in your immediate area?

[Guest GreyOrchard]

 

As a committed off-leasher this is exactly how I look at the issue except for one major detail you overlook - seven hundred years ago a greyhound was not in danger of being squashed by a truck going 100 km/h!! We actually have to be better then our ancestors if we want to keep our dogs safe. Most of us live in urban environments with a host of dangers of which our ancestors couldn't have dreamed.

 

Having grown up in a highly populated part of New Jersey, I actually have not overlooked the concept of traffic, and I would never advocate anyone letting their dog off leash in traffic. Am not sure where I said that greyhounds should be let off the leash near traffic. Our ancestors had other sorts of distractions to watch for, including their own lives if their hounds were caught killing the king's deer.

 

Another harsh reality is that if people do engage in a bit of SAFE off leash recall training, then if their dog ever does get loose in a difficult area, they will have that background to possibly fall back on rather than getting themselves into a panic. There are few things that feel as bad as watching your greyhound bound away from you due to a snapped leash or collar, heading towards traffic, and few things that feel as good as when you clap you hands and call his name to get his attention, then shout (for example) "let's GO", start walking so he can see your silouhette moving (remember, they react to and are drawn towards movement) and he comes bounding back to you. Good recall training will save any dog's life someday....after all, you can't chase a greyhound.

I'm another 'never', unless you're in a totally enclosed area.

 

I remember that years ago I read a book by a professional dog trainer. They said that their dogs were always kept on leads when out in public because the dogs, are dogs and could well forget themselves if they saw some sort of distraction. And those dogs weren't greyhounds, either!

 

I don't necessarily disagree - if a person has a dog off leash in an area where there are distractions he is likely to react to, then that's not a very wise owner who let's his dog off leash.

[Guest GreyOrchard]

The other big problem apart from traffic, is that by and large we (modern pet owners ) don't want them to hunt and kill prey. Or be hurt in the chase e.g. by barbed wire or large/ fierce quarry, such as deer or foxes. Or worse, get in with livestock - though Irish bred greyhounds that I've known seem to be quite respectful of large stock, sheep and lambs less so ie show interest in lambs whilst on leash

 

I do agree with trying to train greyhounds to off leash if the dog has the right temperament, but it is difficult to find good areas free of prey animals and through mistakes I've become more cautious.

 

Edtited to add : these issues would be a concern with any breed of dog that has a high prey / chase drive. I have seen other breed dogs chasing deer though and they give up and return to their owners very quickly, without the speed or intensity of a greyhound giving chase

Yes, I am acutely aware of greyhounds, livestock, prey drive etc. In Ireland, if a dog is even found in the same field as livestock, the farmer has a right to shoot them.And they do. All the time. For example, I know of a workman leaving a gate open and 3 pet greyhounds got into a field of sheep and killed 9 in 15 minutes. They were all shot and killed. So yes, I am very aware, painfully aware, of what greyhounds can do. Once one of my adoption greyhounds got loose and I found her in my neighbour's field amongst cows with newborn calves. I was mortified to see my neigbhour driving towards me the moment I saw her in the distance. I ran up to him, apologizing profusely. Fortunately he is a decent guy and he just laughed and said "no problem, those cows will take care of her" and I looked up and they were chasing her out of the field. She came running to me, scared out of her wits. Really big animals intimidate a lot of dogs, and not just Irish dogs.

 

Will say it again - training your dog to be off leash is a very gradual, step by step process. It is not to be taken lightly. It is not to be done next to busy roads, in parks with squirrels all over the place, in fields full of lambs, or around a lot of rusty barbed wire. I can't rewrite my whole recall chapter into this thread, but different greyhounds will have their limits as to how far you can take them. When I took on a feral sloughi several years ago, I never at that time imagined I could ever let him loose. He was wild, and had fended for himself for at least 3 yrs. Yet he became my own dog, and became totally and utterly reliable off leash.

 

Most of them are more capable and biddable than we give them credit for.

 

Think about this: if thousands of young greyhounds every year are killed because they "won't chase", that means there are a lot of greyhounds out there without the very high prey drive we are assigning to all of them.....

Edited September 10, 2015 by GreyOrchard

[sobesmom]

 

"These dogs" have been off leash for two thousand years and more and our greyhounds are descended from them.

 

They are, in fact, particularly well suited to being off leash IF they are properly trained.

 

Seven hundred years ago, let's say in France, if 4 nobles went out on a 3 day hunting party, each bringing let's say 30 greyhouunds each, HOW do you think they got them back? Clicker training? Extendable leads?

 

No.

 

They trained them to heed the hunting horn and the huntsman's call. They did not "train" them in organized classes with poodles and Labs....they conditioned them to respond to certain things.

 

They did not just go gallopping off with 90 greyhounds and hope the greyhounds all followed, all got along with each other, and did not attack other people's livestock or the king's deer. .

 

They trained them. But not like we are trying to train them today. They were better at it, smarter at it.

 

If you don't want to train or condition your dog in recall, that's fine. That's your choice. However, to say they are "not suited" to being off leash is completely the opposite of the historical record. They have in fact only been in "confinement" for about 100-150 years.....before that? About 1800 years and more of not being confined.

Well said.

 

May I remind everyone - the OP asked for advice. Perhaps we could give advice, and not flat-out judgement.

 

The fact is - LOTS of greys are trained to be off-leash. TRAINED being the operative word. The OP is probably asking for TRAINING advice! Let's not scare off a new member with judgment. Let those with advice offer it. Of course, they're probably scared to do so.

Edited September 11, 2015 by sobesmom

[mansbestfriend]

I like GreyOrchard's very good step by step advice/post for training recall to Greyhounds. There are some different priorities in there, compared to teaching recall to 'normal' pet dogs.

 

Of course appropriate safety precautions are important for any dog.

[Batmom]

OP's first question was, "is it ever safe...."

 

Every opinion is a judgment.

[JohnF]

Are you saying the only truly open and unfenced place in England, Wales or Scotland is the beach? Or just in your immediate area?

 

There are of course the National Parks but restrictions apply, especially in bird nesting season. There really isn't the huge amount of bush adjacent to cities like there is in Australia and America. All of the farmland here is owned and mostly enclosed, and the common-land has restrictions. I'll not let a Grey off leash where there are livestock, though one of my Borzois was able to be trained to walk to heel everywhere and only run when told, so I suppose training might be possible. Not with Peggy though as she has a rather 'cussed' or independent mentality.

[silverfish]

those cows will take care of her" and I looked up and they were chasing her out of the field. She came running to me, scared out of her wits. Really big animals intimidate a lot of dogs, and not just Irish dogs.

True. Our first greyhound, Jim, was also our first dog. We made a lot of mistakes with him, but he was a great dog, very intelligent, and very forgiving. One mistake I made was to walk him through a field of bullocks before his recall was solid. He took off chasing them - just for fun, but still not acceptable of course. One kicked him, and he never again took off after any large animal. Instead, he'd take a wide detour around them or stick very close to me as we walked through. We don't have many sheep around here, but when I discovered that he also wanted to chase sheep to make them run, I took him to a place we knew and walked him into a fairly tight enclosure of sheep on the leash. Well, one old ewe was right up by the gate and she stood her ground and stamped at him, and began to move forward. That was enough for Jim - he never again looked at a sheep either! Caution is necessary. Know your own dog is necessary. Training is necessary, but with the right dog and the right training, it can be done.

 

 

Think about this: if thousands of young greyhounds every year are killed because they "won't chase", that means there are a lot of greyhounds out there without the very high prey drive we are assigning to all of them.....

That's very true, too. There are a lot of greyhounds with no prey drive or very little. They really have no interest in chasing and killing. Our Jack would chase rabbits only to playbow to them when he caught up (which he did also with hedgehogs), and Renie might possibly break out into a trot for a few paces if a rabbit popped up in front of us, but then she'd drop back to a walk as if to say 'Oh, it's too much trouble'. I think they simply took her by surprise!

 

I train mine to come when I call them from various rooms in the house, then in from the garden. At that point I move the training outside, but it's more a matter of creating a strong bond between us and a wish to be a part of the pack and to keep up with us than formal training in the sense that most people mean it. Calling them between two people is a great way to do it - making it a game - but mostly it's just responding to their behaviour and rewarding as appropriate. That's just what works for us.

 

 

As to how long is it, well, how long is a piece of string? Three weeks is too early. You need to work on the trust between you, and letting your dog know s/he is part of the family. I also make a habit of giving a small treat every single time we come in from a walk or any kind of trip out of the house. This conditions them to the fact that coming home is a good and desirable thing.

 

When you think you are both ready, try it first in a safely enclosed field - and never, EVER punish by word, deed, impatient look or even a sigh, if your dog does not come back when called. Simply go and fetch them without a word and pop the leash back on, and try it again later.

 

 

By the way, we have had one dog with a killer prey-drive who wanted to kill everything which wasn't greyhound shaped. She was not a good off-leash candidate for obvious reasons. And Jeffie (in my signature) wasn't a good candidate either because he was a clumsy dog (later we found he had degenerative myelopathy) and so easily spooked that a bird-scarer could have sent him running blindly. When he got old and a slow, he got to go offlead. He was partially deaf and wouldn't have been able to run far if he'd wanted to. I was so pleased for him that he was able to have a short off-lead period in his life.

Edited September 11, 2015 by silverfish

[smurfette]

Colin had a simliar adventure with a pheasant. I let him off lead in an enclosed field and he started to have a little run. A pheasant sat on the field and Colin nearly stepped on it. The bird went up with a loud squawking sound. Col came back at a full run because of that scary monster.

Some days later we were walking in the woods shortly after dark and another pheasant fell off a tree directly behind Col. It made the same sound.

That did it. Whenever we encounter these mostly walking birds Colin looks the other way. When I don't see them - they don't see me. I am safe.

[Guest Amber]

It seems to me that if your grey has any sort of chase/ prey drive or is likely to spook and run (and many, many fall into one or both of those categories ) the location of any off leashing is key. A lot of people don't have access to safe, open locations, away from traffic. Where i live in north scotland, deer are the major problem. They send my dog wild and we have had one chasing incident in a woodland that i mistakenly tbought to be deerfenced....it was not deer fenced on one side. She was wonderful on this walk until a deer popped up and whoosh, off at high speed to the other side of the woods. Fortunately she stopped chasing when she met some other dog walkers and their dogs also gave chase and then all the dogs gave up and the deer got away. I was running after her very worried, i can tell you!

 

So i know her limitations now, anywhere with possible deer is no use and that is most areas here, even one of the large urban parks has deer in it. Because there is a lot of development and new housing being built now in greenbelt, the deer are being driven more and more to the city parkland and riverside areas that are impossible to build on.

 

It is difficult but i do think greyhounds should have the opportunity to run free, be that in a fenced in area or otherwise. If the garden/ yard is large enough, or a secure fenced field if not able to off leash in open, that's fine.

 

I do still off leash, mainly at beach or river area that is free of deer and bunnies. Never in woods now unless i was totally sure 100% deer fenced.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Amber

[Guest GreyOrchard]

It seems to me that if your grey has any sort of chase/ prey drive or is likely to spook and run (and many, many fall into one or both of those categories ) the location of any off leashing is key. A lot of people don't have access to safe, open locations, away from traffic. Where i live in north scotland, deer are the major problem. They send my dog wild and we have had one chasing incident in a woodland that i mistakenly tbought to be deerfenced....it was not deer fenced on one side. She was wonderful on this walk until a deer popped up and whoosh, off at high speed to the other side of the woods. Fortunately she stopped chasing when she met some other dog walkers and their dogs also gave chase and then all the dogs gave up and the deer got away. I was running after her very worried, i can tell you!

 

So i know her limitations now, anywhere with possible deer is no use and that is most areas here, even one of the large urban parks has deer in it. Because there is a lot of development and new housing being built now in greenbelt, the deer are being driven more and more to the city parkland and riverside areas that are impossible to build on.

 

It is difficult but i do think greyhounds should have the opportunity to run free, be that in a fenced in area or otherwise. If the garden/ yard is large enough, or a secure fenced field if not able to off leash in open, that's fine.

 

I do still off leash, mainly at beach or river area that is free of deer and bunnies. Never in woods now unless i was totally sure 100% deer fenced.

 

Here is a thought for you. For several months, try long-leashing her in deer areas, using one of those 15 or 20 ft long tacker leads. In this way, she gets accustomed to/gets in the habit of staying near you when she sees deer, and the more often she sees them the more seeing them becomes normalized. It does not mean she will have no reaction to them at all, but that it can begin to dilute or lessen the degree of her reaction. It is while she is on the long leash and near deer that you can begin some rudimentary recall and "leave it" training.

 

There is a wonderful painting from the 1400s called Hunt in the Forest by Paolo Uccello. It shows 25 greyhounds on a deer hunt. It's a very busy, active painting, lots of people, horses, dogs and deer in it, and it potrays exactly how hunting parties have been described.

 

Here's the interesting part: ff you look just to the right of the center of the painting, you will see two off leash greyhounds running together, and just behind them is a man and what clearly is a younger greyhound who is clearly VERY excited compared to the other two in front of him. This younger greyhound is leashed, and if you look closely at the man holding him, the greyhound is on what is equivalent to an extendable leash. There are about 4 things the man is accomplishing by this leash/long-leash training, and there's no reason why we can't give it a try too.

 

Here is a link to the painting:

 

http://s213.photobucket.com/user/luisant41/media/Pintura%20do%20Renascimento/CaadanaFloresta_PaoloUccello.jpg.html

[3greytjoys]

Congratulations on your new adoption!

Good question. I understand views across the pond are different. This post might help explain some of the "never" replies. Our own highly trained Greyhounds are never allowed off-leash, except to run in fully fenced enclosures. As a search team leader in the U.S., I've seen too many loose Greyhounds meet an untimely death, become lost forever, and some were stolen. A hound's age, years of recall training, and duration with a family helps but doesn't always apply. A racer's deeply-rooted instinct to run/chase often outweighs their human's attempt to recall. Senior Greyhounds that have lived and hiked with their family for many years have suddenly taken off, never to be found, or sustained a fatal injury.

 

If interested, below are some reasons U.S. racing greyhound adoption groups include a *not permitted off-leash unless in a fully enclosed area* clause in adoption contracts. It helps protect the life of the dog, safety of others, and reinforces leash laws. Adopters may not realize that it helps them too.

 

- Dogs running-at-large are illegal in most U.S. states. Some are state laws reinforced by county/city/town laws, some are local laws. Any dog running-at-large can be euthanized.

 

- Owner liability: If a loose dog is responsible for the harm or death of someone's pet, child or mature human, costs can skyrocket, including hospital or medical costs; homeowners insurance rates increase (or insurance might be denied); animal control fines; if the dog isn't euthanized, costs to regain possession of dog; increased dog license fees; potential legal fees if the harmed party sues the dog owner. Depending on the laws and the judge, dog might not be allowed in public (except muzzled for vet visits).

 

- Dogs are not permitted off-leash in many parklands due to wildlife and human protection laws. Dogs are not permitted at all (even on leash) in some state park systems.

 

Adoption groups can require relinquishment of dogs whose adoptive owners do not abide by leash laws.

---

Some general safety considerations:

Some common injuries for loose dogs in wilderness areas: broken leg/s, open wounds/skin tears (worse in thin-skinned Greyhound breed), lethal snake bites, tick borne diseases, tick paralysis, problems from thorned or toxic plants, a myriad of diseases and parasites dogs get given opportunities to snack on tasty wild animal excrement and/or from drinking water in puddles, creeks, lakes. (A young, large dog died recently from ingesting invisible toxic algae cells during a quick dip/drink in a river.)

 

Dogs don't have good depth perception; nor do they have any reason to think they can't walk on water. This can be risky since Greyhounds can run 45 mph (with tunnel vision and wind rushing over their ears) while chasing a wild animal or bird... right off a cliff, or fall into water. Racing Greyhounds have no swimming experience. Their lack of body fat/lack of buoyancy requires extra endurance to even attempt to keep their head above water. (Newly retired racing Greyhounds are brief 30 second sprinters, but not conditioned for swimming endurance.) A Greyhound chasing a river otter, beaver or goose can be swept away by a fairly mild river current. Many dogs drown in ocean rip currents and/or sneaker waves.

 

If a loose dog wanders into deep brush, up mountain sides, consider how a human might access injured dog, and carry a large, (possibly painfully resistant) Greyhound over challenging terrain. If a dog took off ignoring owner, how far/difficult would it be for owner to return to the area to search by foot every day (potentially for weeks, months, or longer).

 

Mountain lions, coyotes, bears, and other predators kill loose dogs.

 

Dogs think like 2-3 year old children, if running loose it's more difficult to prevent them from grabbing a poisonous snake as if it were a play toy. Especially dangerous if a large-hearted athlete like a Greyhound is bitten. Difficult (if not impossible) to slow their blood pressure during exercise to slow venom absorption.

Loose dogs often cover much more distance (zig-zagging) during hikes than their owners. Greyhounds are medically sensitive to overheating during exercise, especially in warm temperatures. These are just some more common risk considerations, aside from urban traffic, etc..

IMO, U.S. racing Greyhounds of today were bred to race independently, not to be biddable to humans like working breeds. In any event, I'd encourage you to build an extremely solid foundation of your hound's trust in you, and work on happy verbal recall (with a loud whistle and arm signals) in safely confined areas -- for years and throughout the hound's lifetime. Greyhounds change enormously within the first 3-5 years in their new forever home. No one can predict how your particular Greyhound would react in an outside environment with other people's beloved live furry distractions in these early years. (By the way, I would not use a squawker for on-going recall training purposes. Repeated squawker use (without extraordinary rewards that racing trainers provide) can desensitize racing Greyhounds to squawkers. Squawkers are better saved for a true one time emergency.)

Edited September 22, 2015 by 3greytjoys