Prominent Hind End Weakness

[3greys2cats]

Thank you 3greys. I think I'll do the twice a day 200mg dose each time for now and see how it goes. It's tough - having him for 10 years (seeing all these life cycles) - but I'll do everything in my power to keep him comfy.

He is beautiful and I know how you feel, Max is our 1st Grey, the "one" that started it all, we got him Oct 2004, over 10 years ago, I am connected to him heart and soul, he is cooked for almost daily and is given anything and everything he wants!

[XTRAWLD]

Can someone explain something to me? He's on pred which is a steroid - I understand that can't be used with an NSAID - but why exactly? Also, do NSAID's contain steroidal properties? Does his pred offer any inflammation reducing characteristics that aid in his pinched nerve issue? Wouldn't I want to continue using pred and gaba together instead of switching to an NSAID all together? Just trying to think of a benefit to get off the pred, and I'm having a hard time figuring out why I should.

[CharlieRhea]

prednisone and NSAIDs both have anti inflammatory properties, maybe that's why. Someone will come along and answer your question who has more knowledge. Sending good wishes!

[3greys2cats]

Prednisone suppresses the Immunity system, anti-inflammatory, can cause problems with liver, kidneys, many bad side effects. NSAID's are anti-inflammatory, some are non-steroidal(Metacam) but given along with Prednisone could cause stomach bleeding. An NSAID like Rimadyl along with Gabapentin would hopefully help Kasey with pinched Nerve. My Vet has explained that Gabapentin works differently and is an entirely different drug category, pain med that works in the brain, sends signals that there is not pain, relaxes them and therefore works well with an NSAID which is more like aspirin. Hope that helps a little

[NeylasMom]

If he is on pred for his allergy issues and you know if my helps him, I would not switch. Is someone suggesting you do? NSAIDs aren't usually the first meds prescribed for LS so I would stick with the pred and the addition of Gabapentin and see where you're at. Again? You could ask about a muscle relaxer. I don't know if they're safe to use with pred.

[vjui]

We are also dealing with this with Nico, who is 11.5 (will be 12 in July). I'm almost 100% certain he has GOLP (geriatric onset laryngeal paralysis) which is also associated with hind end weakness. He has had noisy breathing and episodes of stridor (inspiration through a closed glottis--almost like he's inhaling through a straw) for about 1 12/ years now. He had a right rear hock fracture while race long ago and subsequent soft tissue cancer surgery on that same site, so that leg has always been a bit wonky. But within the last 2-3 weeks, he's become very wobbly on this back legs and occasionally nearly collapses. We have an assistance harness for him. I'm reluctant to start him on medications as his stomach is sensitive (we're still trying to get his poops straightened out) and very very compromised kidney function. At what point do we consider letting him go? It is so painful to watch him become so incapacitated. Luckly, according to what I've read, they are not in pain. What do you think? I also need some guidance here.

[XTRAWLD]

If he is on pred for his allergy issues and you know if my helps him, I would not switch. Is someone suggesting you do? NSAIDs aren't usually the first meds prescribed for LS so I would stick with the pred and the addition of Gabapentin and see where you're at. Again? You could ask about a muscle relaxer. I don't know if they're safe to use with pred.

 

Thanks. I'll continue with the pred and gaba. The vet simply said she's limited to what she could give him regarding pain med because of being on pred. She also suggested that getting him off pred and onto an NSAID would take care of the allergies (I don't believe that - since we tried everything in the book) and would also provide the anti-inflammatory and pain meds that he would need. I'm comfortable keeping him on the pred and gaba. I will ask about the muscle relaxer when I hear from her today/tomorrow.

 

He had a GREAT DAY on Sunday. He trotted for a long while on our walk, and seemed pretty upbeat, so the gaba seems to be working for now!

[XTRAWLD]

Just got off the phone with the vet. She did speak with a neurologist about the Depo shot. She did suggest to use it as a "last resort" especially since Kasey is responding to the Gabapentin right now. The shots' long lasting and strong effects worry her from the side effects standpoint - risk of onset of diabetes, kidney/liver failure, as opposed to the injection site etc. We agreed to visit it at a later point in time. I asked her about a muscle relaxant and she said it could be tried but she's not sure of how much benefit he would really receive. LS is caused by compression and not necessarily tense muscles, so a relaxant wouldn't necessarily alleviate what's happening, and on the flip side, could actually cause more harm, if he's trying to get up and use those muscles and they are relaxed and kerplunk. So another avenue we might think of later, but not right now. I asked if I should consider increasing his pred usage and she agreed. So I'll try twice a week instead of once a week dosing that I've been doing. She agreed that the pred is definitely something that would help the spinal issue and inflammation.

 

That's about all I've got so I guess it's case closed until Kasey stops responding to these two meds. I've found a few areas around home that have some gradual elevation changes on grass that I'll take him to daily to keep his legs not on flat ground all the time. That's about all I have left....

[NeylasMom]

There's an easy enough way to determine if a muscle relaxer would he helpful. For Zuri it is a non-negotiable. His muscles spasm even on them, but he is worse off of them (this is also why we do cold laser). It may not be the same for your dog, bit I don't think ruling it out without having him examined or doing it yourself makes sense. For Zuri the spasms are worst in the muscles along his spine, on both sides about mid-way down his back. If I run a couple of fingers down each muscle with some firm pressure (like I'm giving him a massage) the muscles spasm and twitch when I get to them. The other area is his groin, underneath his back legs on either side. This area is tougher to tell, when he's tight the muscles have what my ortho describes as a "crunchy" feeling that I've come to be able to recognize, but if I push firmly when he's hurting, he will pull that leg up and away.

 

ETA: the reason they are sometimes warranted is because the muscles the dog must use to keep himself going that are now over-compensating for his weak back end are now overused on a daily basis and become sore and tight. If your dogs is ideally inactive and of course depending on progression this might not be the case, but I do believe that with inactivity you might avoid this problem, but the disease will progress much more quickly as those muscles continue to weaken.

 

I really can't recommend a PT consult enough. I know you said you don't have one close, but it might be worth a trip just to do a consult. They could identify his particular issues and give you things to do at home whether that be hear, ice, massage, PT exercises, working with your chiro or anyone else you might find closer who practices one modality. Also, don't rule out the underwater treadmill. Zuri was freaked out his first time, but with the help of my PT slowly acclimating him and a lot of treats he was a pro in no time. In posted video way back when, you may still be able to find it in a thread.

Edited March 19, 2015 by NeylasMom

[Jiffer]

All of my 12 + year olds have had hind end weakness, you can fend it off, but ultimately, it does progress. We've done everything from chiro to acupuncture to medication to injections. In all of them, we had some level of bowel incontinence which was fun.. not LOL but we grinned and bore it. You have to take the good with the bad and as they get older, they just need a bit more patience in dealing with their aging. Orion was the worst sleep-pooper! and Mojito didn't help because she'd bury it in the blankets and completely smear poop everywhere.

 

Uber who just turned 13, is starting to show signs of hind end weakness. He's been getting acupuncture for several years now and I suspect we may be looking at adding in some medications on top of his supplements to help him along. Our acupuncturist is MacDonald Mobile Veterinary Service, who does in home acupuncture. She's away til the end of the month, but maybe give her a call and ask if she knows any acupuncturists local to you.

As our vet keeps reminding me.. gotta keep them walking and moving. The more muscle they retain, the stronger they stay. Winters are hard on them for this reason because with the snow and ice, we walk less which means the muscles have time to atrophy.

[XTRAWLD]

Uber who just turned 13, is starting to show signs of hind end weakness. He's been getting acupuncture for several years now and I suspect we may be looking at adding in some medications on top of his supplements to help him along. Our acupuncturist is MacDonald Mobile Veterinary Service, who does in home acupuncture. She's away til the end of the month, but maybe give her a call and ask if she knows any acupuncturists local to you.

This is helpful, thank you! I'll try to get in touch with them. Maybe I can get a 2 for 1 deal and throw Ryder in there too!

 

I've been fortunate that there hasn't been any incontinence, but I'm ready for it......webcam and all - and I WON'T run the Roomba when I'm not home.

 

Kasey had a terrible day yesterday.

 

On another note, I tried contacting another vet clinic for a second opinion (I really am a little lost with this whole thing, I don't know what I'm looking for but I feel shortchanged and this is getting a little rapid), and of course that vet is away today so I sent along an email. I just feel like Kasey is not getting the level of care I want. I shouldn't be telling the vet what to do......

 

Also, I set up a chiro appt tomorrow......without clearance, but hey, I've been making every other decision on my own, I'm making this one too.

[nessa]

You go right ahead and make all the decisions you want to for your dogs. These Dr do not know all and are guessing at most anyway. I will always regret listening to the ostoe Dr for Misha when she said her high kidney values were OK and not listening to my gut and talking to another Dr. Take care of yourself and your doggies !!

[NeylasMom]

Specialist. I know you said you don't have many close, but I think they are worth their weight in gold and it would be worth a bit of a drive as long as Kasey isn't overly stressed by car rides. Find a place that has an orthopedist and a neurologist (and preferably does all of the modalities you are considering, including chiro/acupuncture/cold laser/underwater treadmill and other PT, etc.) so that even if you end up seeking specific treatments closer to home you know you are receiving guidance from someone knowledgeable in all of them. You could see either specialist, just make sure it's a place that has both and and will consult with each other.

[Jiffer]

NeylasMom reminded me of another local Vet who does alternative therapies.. Dr. Leslie Woodcock: http://www.paws4dogs.ca/ She's located just off the 401 at the Guelph exit 299... not too far from Brampton.

[XTRAWLD]

Win for Kasey!!! He's gots an appt next week at Caledon Mountain Hospital, with Dr. John, who consults with Dr. Couto!!!

 

Hang in there for one more week boy!

 

[CharlieRhea]

YAY Casey you cutie! I'll be thinking of you!

[FiveRoooooers]

Win for Kasey!!! He's gots an appt next week at Caledon Mountain Hospital, with Dr. John, who consults with Dr. Couto!!!

 

Hang in there for one more week boy!

 

Look at that smile Hang in there, handsome.

[3greys2cats]

Casey, you are just so handsome, hang in there bud!!

[XTRAWLD]

So. Hmmm, I thought I'd post this since I just don't know.

 

This morning while making breakfast Kasey started to chatter - very unusual. He was shaking. I put a sweater on him and then fed him and he seemed fine.

 

What I'd like to know is this - was he cold; was he excited for food; both; or is this a side effect of gaba?

 

His last gabapentin was at 11pm at night, and he received his next dose this morning after brekkie, and I haven't changed his dosages over the past week so this "shaking" was new. He does get gaba a little more regularly time wise over the weekend so the meds are better spread out since I'm home.

Thoughts?

[XTRAWLD]

So got a call asking to resched Kasey's appt to next week (Monday). Dr. isn't feeling well. Sigh.

 

He's had two chiro sessions and both went well. She focused on the middle of his back which is where his reaction was more prominent. Also she believes, according to the xrays, that his hip bones are bone on bone

 

I'll ask about the chattering and shaking if it's a side effect of gaba.

 

He's also been off his food since I've upped his pred. This is not unusual. He's always exhibited opposite side effects of what prednisone usually does (increased thirst/hunger translates to never eating and drinking for my guy). So I'm resorting to giving him nutrition shakes when he refuses to eat a meal.

 

 

[Guest PiagetsMom]

Sending you and Kasey a I know how hard it is to want to find something to help them out, and to having difficulty doing so. Hopefully you'll at least have your question about the gabapentin answered. I'm getting ready to start Mirage on gabapentin, so I'll check back to see if you update.

Edited March 26, 2015 by PiagetsMom

[tbhounds]

I don't see where you can truly elevate his hips based on the rads you posted.

[XTRAWLD]

I don't see where you can truly elevate his hips based on the rads you posted.

I don't know what this means....

 

On an aside, I picked up Sucralfate today and will start that too. He's developed a new "gagging cough" over the last 2 months or so that I briefly mentioned at his last visit. I'm certain its his throat affected by acid since I likely wasn't using Pepcid regularly enough to prevent his reflux. I am having a HECK of a time trying to get all his meds scheduled now at the right times; avoid this with other meds, this has to be taken with food, take this one before food......and sometimes he won't eat! omg

[NeylasMom]

Does he have trouble breathing after exercise? Gagging cough plus LS could mean laryngeal paralysis. Worth considering.

 

And she meant that those rads aren't sufficient to make that determination. You need better, or other views.

[XTRAWLD]

Nope no trouble after exercise. I have often thought he has a mild case of LS, I just try to keep him as cool as possible as to not aggravate panting. He seems though to do the gagging/cough whenever I've missed a pepcid dose. Hoping the sucralfate will help.

 

I'm not sure I'll be getting other x-rays done to be honest. We went in to that x-ray not focusing on the hips, which is likely why no accommodations were made. We'll see what the specialist has in mind on Monday anyway.