Prominent Hind End Weakness

[XTRAWLD]

OK, so I've had about enough of Kasey's weak hind end. Vitamins & fish oil did the trick for a couple years but now I need something else. I'm purchasing a 24/7 harness to help with his getting up and if he falls to easily pick him up. What are my next steps? He has a chiro appt for an assessment on Saturday morning and I've called the vet to ask if I can get x-rays done on both back legs without drugging him.

 

He is showing no sign of pain from what I can tell, but does have a reaction (just the leg moving, no growling, etc.) to me massaging his back legs, from the toes to the knee. For the most part both back legs are weight bearing, he walks fine, but often when waiting for meals I notice that his full weight is not on his right back leg which is the only one of the two I can tell he would be favouring. He often uses that foot to pivot, and when it does give out to him unexpectedly, down he goes. The recent splits he's been doing hasn't been helping to repair whatever ligaments have been stretched.

 

In regards to pain meds - if it would be beneficial to him - he is on prednisone to control his allergies (10 mg, once a week), which I understand doesn't work very well with pain meds. A month or so ago in anticipation of eventually needing pain meds, the vet did suggest we try a different med to control his allergies that would work more favourably with pain meds - I'm guessing with Metacam. I do not want to go down this new experimental route for what would control his allergies better. We've been there, done that for years before finding out what works.

 

How do I approach this aging greyhound ailment? I need a bit of guidance. Today's fall on the ice outside rattled me.

[NeylasMom]

Gabapentin may be helpful, but you really need a diagnosis so you know what's causing his issues to decide on the best treatment plan.

[nessa]

I am sorry about the fall on the ice. It is unbearable to see them do that. I am also curious as to any other advice you get.

We have done the ramp, so no steps, recently getting the harness to assist with standing for any ( small ) length of time vs her back legs sinking as she stands or getting up from a down position if needed.

But you mentioned him favoring one leg when standing. Is that something to look into? Do his toes go under when walking? Dragging either leg?

My hope is that all ice is away soon eliminating the problem of falls and slips on that difficult surface!!!

She does eat most meals laying down. Sometimes eating from the raised bowl, but she does seem more comfortable laying down.

I could be wrong, but Shana does not exhibit that she is in any pain so no pain meds here. Awhile ago we tried Rymidal and Gabapentin to no difference. She was difficult to get her pills into so I stopped.

Keep us posted of any answers you find !!!

[MaryJane]

My Larry is 13+ and he is a big greyhound. The weather in Mass has been really tough for him this year. He gets a supplement mix which really helps - it's called Longevity and he goes through more than 1 tub in a month. He was on some tablets by the same company for about 2 years but, they stopped helping as much - someone here on Greytalk recommended the tablets. He also gets an adjustment every month by the chiropractor who is certified to do animals (very important). On real bad days, he also gets Deramaxx (needs to be given with a FULL meal). The vet also prescribed Tramadol but, I don't use this as much, only when I think he is in more pain like when we had the really cold days here. The Tramadol seems to give him what I would liken to "dementia", he seems to forget or get confused and he was also having more troubled sleep (?nightmares).

[EllenEveBaz]

Nutmeg did not favor one leg, and nothing dire showed up in standard x-rays of legs and back, so vet and I decided to regard her weak hind end as a combo of LS (lumbosacral stenosis or narrowing of the spinal canal, for you newbies) and arthritis. I did not want to put her through an MRI for definitive diagnosis since I would not have put her through surgery. We treated symptoms.

 

I found vet Suzanne Stack's brief article on LS helpful as a basic overview. (Sorry, my cut/paste isn't working in GT right now, but the article is all over the internet.) Different things seem to help different dogs, so I will just talk about Nutmeg's experience. Nutmeg had no drug interaction problems, so we started with tramadol. She had been on fish oil a long time already. Our vet was skeptical but willing to try the depo-Medrol shots suggested by Stack, and these made a significant improvement for Nutmeg for roughly three months at a time for two set of shots. I wish I had gotten a 24/7 harness earlier -- it didn't bother her a bit and was a real help when needed. Plus it helped my peace of mind. We gradually upped the tramadol and then added gabapentine. We don't live anywhere near acupuncture or chiropractic or water treadmill providers or I would have tried them all.

 

One helpful piece of advice I got from GT was to keep her as active as possible and to encourage her to climb gentle hills. Left to my own ideas, I would have tried to keep her as quiet as possible. As it was, her vet remarked several times that her relatively good muscle mass was of benefit to her. She enjoyed moseying around on slow walks, "helping" garden, and taking her scary old-lady runs in the back yard.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

We're managing something very similar with Mirage, who is 11 years old. He's been on Tramadol for about 6 months, and tolerates that well. We started at a very minimal dosage of 50 mg twice a day, and recently added a third dosage, so now three times a day - there's still room to up that if we need to.

 

We did a round of dexamethasone about 6 months ago - my vet does not do the depo-medrol shots or we would give those a try. Recently Mirage received a dexamethasone injection and our vet suggested trying a cold laser treatment that they've recently started doing. Like the depo-medrol shots, some seem to have a good result, and others may have none, but in his opinion it could not hurt to give it a try, and he had one yesterday. We'll do these 2 to 3 times a week once a month, and evaluate whether it seems to be making a difference. We've discussed Deramaxx, Robaxin, and Gabapentin, and those are all possibles for future treatment.

 

I agree with the advice to try to keep Kasey active as much as possible. We still walk twice a day, 15 or 20 minute walks......or really not "walks" but more strolls or meanders on difficult days. He still really tries to have a crazy stuffy play session on most days, and we've agreed that we'll let him enjoy them and have his fun as long as he feels up to it!

 

Good luck to you and your boy

Edited March 13, 2015 by PiagetsMom

[MaryJane]

Recently Mirage received a dexamethasone injection and our vet suggested trying a cold laser treatment that they've recently started doing.

 

 

Just wanted to mention that Larry started to get the cold laser treatments along with his adjustments last year and the laser made him noticeably worse. Normally after an adjustment he would sleep that day, the next day I would notice an improvement. When he got the laser treatments, he was worse the next day, like he was more tired. I did the treatments for a few months longer but, he was getting much worse. When I stopped the laser, and just continued with the adjustments, he was like a new boy again. I didn't mention in my previous posts that the reason I do the adjustments is that Larry has a bad corn on one of his front feet and it throws his balance off - the adjustments help to undo what the corn does to his balance. I also make sure that his adjustments are very gentle, nothing drastic. Larry is lucky in that the chiropractor comes to the house - he finds that his patients are less nervous getting the adjustments at home. Frankly, I don't know if I would do the adjustments if I had to take Larry to an office setting.

[NeylasMom]

One helpful piece of advice I got from GT was to keep her as active as possible and to encourage her to climb gentle hills. Left to my own ideas, I would have tried to keep her as quiet as possible. As it was, her vet remarked several times that her relatively good muscle mass was of benefit to her. She enjoyed moseying around on slow walks, "helping" garden, and taking her scary old-lady runs in the back yard.

This is true if he has LS, and it sounds like it's quite possible that's what this is, but I'm hesitant to give advice without knowing the diagnosis. If he has an injury, something going on with his back for instance, the advice might be totally different than a dog with LS.

 

If it is LS, then yes, keeping up the muscle mass is critical. Flat walks won't really do that (you're trying to maintain core strength). According to my ortho and physical therapist, walks on hills, running if they can handle that and standing or walking on uneven surfaces so they have to balance are ideal. Zuri has also benefited a lot from the underwater treadmill in winter months when we had less opportunity to exercise outside. I also now firmly believe that the fact that Zuri has to go up and down several flights of stairs multiple times per day to go on walks and potty is keeping him in much better shape than he would be otherwise, so stairs may be another good option. Our PT was also able to set us up with some PT exercises to do at home that were gentle to gradually get him back into shape before we started doing all of the above. However,we caught his LS fairly early.

 

FYI, Zuri's back feet are sensitive as well. He has no issue with me cleaning off his front legs/feet when we come in from bad weather, but he will back the back legs/feet away. So it does sound to me like LS is a strong possibility here, but best to see a neurologist or orthopedist and see if you can't rule out other things/get a firmer diagnosis.

 

ETA: Zuri is also on Gabapentin and Robaxin, a muscle relaxer to help for the spasmy muscles he gets from compensating for his weak back end. He also gets cold laser treatments every 2 weeks and acupuncture monthly and that seems to help.

Edited March 12, 2015 by NeylasMom

[XTRAWLD]

This is very helpful. Thank you all. He's going in for x-rays NOT SEDATED!!! Friday night. I've been told of course I'm not allowed in the room while they do this, sigh. I'm going to bring some cut up hotdogs for the vet techs so they can encourage him to lay down a bit easier. I wonder if they will let me just get him into position and then I can leave? Any tips here?

 

I will tell the vet all of these medical suggestions. She actually has owned 2 greyhounds and has been this aging pricess - and corns! so that is rather comforting to me. She also suggested that he may have micro fractures on his rear legs that could be bothering him now as he's aging. And of course arthritis and lets not say the other dreaded thing. Upon the vet's go ahead, he's scheduled for a chiro appt Sat morning. I've used her for years with Ryder and I'm looking forward to hearing her assessment of Kasey. I don't think I'm anywhere close to an acupuncturist nor a massage therapist.

 

I do want to try the pain med route, as yesterday was the first sign of him not bearing weight on one back leg while staring at me waiting for table scraps. It's time to help him out. I'm ordering the harness this morning since I just measured him and he was stretching and walking about just fine. Seems like rest helps him feel good, but I do very much agree on the keeping active part. Keep those legs limber. He goes for 3 walks a day, (will be 4 when the weather really gets nicer) since I don't have a yard - which is just as well I guess since he might do something and really hurt himself!

 

Please keep more suggestions coming if others have similar experiences and I will look up the Stack column. Have any of the pups been on pred and you've had to switch out to something else for a better pain med?

[FiveRoooooers]

I'm in the vets office now without my glasses so I haven't read all of the replies, but please ask about giving Adequan injections. Adequan was part of the cocktail that kept Seamus and Pal going for quite a while. Good luck.

[duncan41]

Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier, (I apologize for not reading the entire thread), but have you read Dr. Suzanne Stack's articles about Depo-Medrol injections: www.greythealth.com, under Lumbrosacral Stenosis. You could print the article and take it to your Vet.

 

Every dog responds differently to the various therapies. The only cautionary statement I would make is if you decide to go with Metacam, please, please, please talk to your Vet about protecting Kacey's stomach with omeprazole (Prilosec) or sulcrafate. Metacam worked wonders for my boy, but absolutely destroyed his stomach. Instead of having an unknown amount of time left with him while on Metacam, we had two good weeks and then 2 horrible weeks where he wouldn't eat and totally lost his ability to stand.

 

Sending prayers for Kacey and hugs for you.

[XTRAWLD]

I'm in the vets office now without my glasses so I haven't read all of the replies, but please ask about giving Adequan injections. Adequan was part of the cocktail that kept Seamus and Pal going for quite a while. Good luck.

Thank you. I have heard of people giving shots to their dogs, but that completely and utterly terrifies me! When we were investigating his allergies, one of the options was to inject him with a cocktail of what he was allergic to in an effort to build more of an immunity.....you should have seen the vets trying to convince me I was capable! Again, I will certainly mention it today.

 

Thank you all. I feel better armed with info to talk to them today. He's doing well today - seems to do better in the morning after a night of rest, but he doesn't seem to be able to stand for long periods of time, and has slowed to a snails pace on walks.... will keep you updated!

[CharlieRhea]

Good luck XTRWLD, i will continue to follow updates. I am going through this with my 13 yr old German Shepherd. She still loves her walks and Charlie motivates her. Rhea is only on Rimadyl. The Vet hasn't suggested anything else to me.

[3greys2cats]

We are struggling here with Max who is 12.5, he is on Rimadyl, Gabapentin and I give Cosequin chews, my DH built a special platform to get into van for walks, special carpets everywhere, he still enjoys 2 small walks a day but this winter is making it difficult for him. Wanted to also add that I have just become certified to practice Reiki on animals and he and Flower are loving their treatments, it is absolutely helping his mobility, he melts into the carpet so..this is one more non traditional form of healing that may work for you. I am going to start practicing more on doing distant healing too, it can also be used to help transition peacefully when an animal passes.

[XTRAWLD]

So, back from the vet. The lady that was going to do his appointment (that owned 2 greyhounds) had to leave to tend to her daughter at home, but she spoke with us in the parking lot and concurred with what I thought was LS causing the issue. She pushed around on his spine and watched him walk and move and sink.....

 

We went inside and another vet did x-rays of his spine. The gap between the vertebra's are not very definitive. But his symptoms certainly are. He became very weak as we gabbed at the office and agreed it's LS. I asked what her secondary diagnosis would have been if I didn't suggest LS and she said, something else neurological....

 

I let her read the article of Stack. She said that she is not comfortable giving an injection, and the owner of the clinic has never apparently heard of depo for this issue. She suggested we see a neurologist and that the only remedy is surgery. She will speak to the neurologist and get his take on depo and will get back to me early next week. I refused surgery.

 

We did get gabapentin. She suggested to give him 1.5-2 capsules 2 to 3 times a day. Capsules are 100mg. Side effects apparently make him either really sedate or really excitable. Anything else I should watch out for? He's had his first dose tonight. It obviously won't stop the weakness, but I guess it will make him more comfortable. Is the dosage and amount correct? I've actually never had to use any pain meds to manage pain.....how do I know he's not in pain - when he's weightbearing after 5 mins when he wouldn't have been in the same situ yesterday? If it doesn't stop the sinking, how can I tell?

 

I can't fix this and I feel a loss of control. The good news is there is no sign of arthritis (I don't know what to think about that, I think I would have preferred that answer because that is pure pain management). He's the best looking 12 year old greyhound many have seen. He's alert, not incontinent, and still has pretty decent walks. I think I've caught this at one of the earliest stages it could be caught. While he's always had some evidence of this problem, it's only come to the forefront over the past couple of months. When I mentioned the vitamins, etc, he's been on, she seemed to allude to the fact that they weren't necessary because they wouldn't help this LS issue.....but look at his condition otherwise - if I didn't give him vitamins etc., would he still be the best looking 12 year old you've seen? Sigh.

 

Thank you all for your help. Seems I didn't need a vet at all, well maybe just to get the meds.

 

What's next? I want to convince them to do a depo injection.....what do you guys think? Pros, cons? Also, should I suggest them to give me muscle relaxants? I also asked for an all clear for a chiro treatment. She was hesitant and asked me to hold off a little longer and she'll get back to me after talking to the neuro dudes. I don't want to exacerbate the issue.

 

Sigh

[NeylasMom]

I would save the depo as a last resort thing, give the Gabapentin a chance to work. 100 mg 2-3x/day is a good, conservative dose to start with. I don't get the 1.5 capsule rec, is she expecting you to split them? If one isn't enough, I would just go to 2. More frequent dosing a t a lower level is better than higher doses further apart.

 

As for what else you can do, a muscle relaxed if he can take that with this other meds. Acupuncture, cold laser. And honestly, if you've found it early, a really good physical therapist who will work with you to rebuild muscle mass appropriately. So crucial for longevity imo.

[XTRAWLD]

I would save the depo as a last resort thing, give the Gabapentin a chance to work. 100 mg 2-3x/day is a good, conservative dose to start with. I don't get the 1.5 capsule rec, is she expecting you to split them? If one isn't enough, I would just go to 2. More frequent dosing a t a lower level is better than higher doses further apart.

 

As for what else you can do, a muscle relaxed if he can take that with this other meds. Acupuncture, cold laser. And honestly, if you've found it early, a really good physical therapist who will work with you to rebuild muscle mass appropriately. So crucial for longevity imo.

Indeed, she suggested because it's so flexible the "half" dose is an option....I just thinking to give it with his meals as it's easy to remember and if i need to do three a day it would be before bed? I don't know how to do 3 if he would need it....is 530pm and 10pm and 730am ok for spacing?

 

I don't really have access to specialists like therapists, etc. that are within an hour of me, other than the chiro I have about 20 mins away. I will try to find an acupuncturist though.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I understand your confusion and conflicting feelings. Mirage had his 2nd cold laser treatment yesterday, and will go for his 3rd and final for the month on Monday morning. I'm not seeing any improvement, but maybe there's a cumulative affect that will show over time? I did ask about acupuncture, but my vet seemed to feel that the benefits were much the same as for the cold laser treatment. We have discussed Gabapentin, but it seemed to be a choice that my vet wanted to keep for down the line, not his first choice of medication which was the Tramadol, so I can't help you with that, but my understanding from advice given is that the Gabapentin can make them "wonky".

 

This is hard.....like Kasey, Mirage has had very few medical/physical issues and is in good shape for a senior otherwise. Today was a difficult day for him, and it hurt my heart to watch him walk. Sending a to you and Kasey.

[NeylasMom]

My experience is that Gabapentin is a pretty benign medication. I've really only seen dogs have issues (mostly getting woozy) at higher doses (300-500 mg/dose) or when started on a higher dose right off the bat rather than building up. I would not withhold it if the dog's discomfort isn't managed fully.

[FiveRoooooers]

With Gabapentin you just need to watch that he doesn't get too wobbly, in that case you would simply adjust the dose. Depo was the first thing we tried with Pal when he was first diagnosed and we kept him going for years. After the Depo didn't seem to help as much we went with another cocktail. Hang in there. Every day is a gift and you are doing soo well for your boy.

[DesiRayMom]

Just wanted to add sympathy and say that I am dealing with the same issue in a 12 year old. For now, he's on nsaid, Gabapentin, joint supplement, fish oil.

Some days he does well and walks for several blocks......other days, we barely get a block away from the house and he starts to sink and drag his rear feet

and I wonder how I'm going to get him home. I've taken to carrying a sling on our walks, for "just in case." His vet has an aversion to doing the depo injections

for some reason, perhaps to save it as the last resort. I was interested in hearing about walking gentle hills to build muscle mass, but this is central Ohio,

flat as a pancake. He does walk a ramp into the back of my suv twice a day, I guess that's better than nothing.

 

My best wishes to all of our elder houndies who are dealing with this issue.

[XTRAWLD]

Thankfully spring is nearly here and there are a few small embankments around landscape shrubbery that we will navigate. That will be his hill . Ive looked up water therapy but he hates water lol so I'm not sure how helpful an aqua treadmill would be. So far no luck on acupuncturists here. Hope he's cleared for chiro, as I do think that's a benefit that I could do. He's good so far today, we'll see how our walk goes. Can't wait to get the harness though, its been ordered. He hesitates for a pair of stairs up to our door, but knows and accepts help readily. He's always been good about understanding people are here to help him and is accepting of it always, whether its picking a booger out of his eye or holding him still for blood work.

[CharlieRhea]

sending healing thoughts to Kasey, that harness will help a lot.

[3greys2cats]

So, back from the vet. The lady that was going to do his appointment (that owned 2 greyhounds) had to leave to tend to her daughter at home, but she spoke with us in the parking lot and concurred with what I thought was LS causing the issue. She pushed around on his spine and watched him walk and move and sink.....

 

We went inside and another vet did x-rays of his spine. The gap between the vertebra's are not very definitive. But his symptoms certainly are. He became very weak as we gabbed at the office and agreed it's LS. I asked what her secondary diagnosis would have been if I didn't suggest LS and she said, something else neurological....

 

I let her read the article of Stack. She said that she is not comfortable giving an injection, and the owner of the clinic has never apparently heard of depo for this issue. She suggested we see a neurologist and that the only remedy is surgery. She will speak to the neurologist and get his take on depo and will get back to me early next week. I refused surgery.

 

We did get gabapentin. She suggested to give him 1.5-2 capsules 2 to 3 times a day. Capsules are 100mg. Side effects apparently make him either really sedate or really excitable. Anything else I should watch out for? He's had his first dose tonight. It obviously won't stop the weakness, but I guess it will make him more comfortable. Is the dosage and amount correct? I've actually never had to use any pain meds to manage pain.....how do I know he's not in pain - when he's weightbearing after 5 mins when he wouldn't have been in the same situ yesterday? If it doesn't stop the sinking, how can I tell?

 

I can't fix this and I feel a loss of control. The good news is there is no sign of arthritis (I don't know what to think about that, I think I would have preferred that answer because that is pure pain management). He's the best looking 12 year old greyhound many have seen. He's alert, not incontinent, and still has pretty decent walks. I think I've caught this at one of the earliest stages it could be caught. While he's always had some evidence of this problem, it's only come to the forefront over the past couple of months. When I mentioned the vitamins, etc, he's been on, she seemed to allude to the fact that they weren't necessary because they wouldn't help this LS issue.....but look at his condition otherwise - if I didn't give him vitamins etc., would he still be the best looking 12 year old you've seen? Sigh.

 

Thank you all for your help. Seems I didn't need a vet at all, well maybe just to get the meds.

 

What's next? I want to convince them to do a depo injection.....what do you guys think? Pros, cons? Also, should I suggest them to give me muscle relaxants? I also asked for an all clear for a chiro treatment. She was hesitant and asked me to hold off a little longer and she'll get back to me after talking to the neuro dudes. I don't want to exacerbate the issue.

 

Sigh

This is exactly how it went for us @ Vets, Max is very healthy for a 12.5 year old, decent walks most days but difficulty getting up from floor, dragging his back feet but still trots when walking, still has all his teeth, got the same diagnosis, LS/Neurological and not seeing Arthritis. We were already on Rimadyl, had been on Metacam and discontinued because it caused stomach issues, we added Gabapentin 300 MG once daily and it made a huge difference. We have a lot of stairs and he is up and down deck stairs multiple times daily to get out in back fenced yard, they are carpet covered and have backs on them, we have no choice but to do inclines, we live on a hill and it has helped keep him going this long for sure. Sending you lots of hope and hugs for Kasey, it is really hard to see them decline, trust your instinct on what he needs, you know him better than anyone. Just wanted to add that when changing NSAID, need 7 days out of system before trying new one.

Edited March 14, 2015 by 3greys2cats

[XTRAWLD]

Thank you 3greys. I think I'll do the twice a day 200mg dose each time for now and see how it goes. It's tough - having him for 10 years (seeing all these life cycles) - but I'll do everything in my power to keep him comfy.

Edited March 14, 2015 by XTRAWLD