Help With Raw Diet

[Busderpuddle]

I have started Ruby on a raw diet of chicken. She has had 2 chicken thighs twice a day for 2 days and loves it.

I don't know how much to be feeding her and I don't have a scale yet. Is that too much ? I have been leaving the skin on too.is that ok ?

When do I add organ meats and how much ?

She weighs 56 lbs and I am trying to get her to 62.

Thanks !

[Guest Lillypad]

That sounds great, so happy she enjoys her meals. Chicken is a great protein to transition a dog to a raw diet. My concern with thigh meat is the bone to meat ratio is high on the bone side. Are the thighs in addition to her kibble? If the thighs are her main meal, I would also add to this at least one breast. Preferably a boneless breast. Not a lot of organ meat is required, only 10 percent of the meal. You can give organ everyday if you choose, but it must be a rather small portion. About one to two ounces only. Of this two ounces only 1/2 ounce should be liver. For example 1 pound of food would be comprised approximately like this: 13 ounces of meat, 2 ounces of bone, 1 ounce of any organ other than liver and only 1/2 to 1 ounce of liver. This example is really over defining here, I am using this example to impress the balance. However, balance comes over time, it is not necessary to strive for this at every meal. I give 2 or 3 ounces of liver once or twice a week, the same for other organs. The most important task now is getting weight on her. To do this you will have to make sure she is getting the required protein and I feel thigh meat only will not accomplish this goal. Sorry for the long winded comment (I tend to do that too often, again sorry) don't stress. So to answer your questions above, NO, two thighs is not too much, YES, leave the skin on, you can ADD organ anytime, but go lightly. Add a very small amount of liver. If your weight goal is 62 pounds than 1-1/2 pounds, but better 2 pounds of food per day is what is recommended based on 2 -3 percent of her ideal weight.

 

A couple of FYI... Chicken gizzards are considered muscle meat, not organ and are a cheaper way to bulk up the protein. Make sure the meats are not "enhanced" in anyway. Chicken 1/4 's make great meals. Watch for whole chicken sales then cut up the chicken for a couple of meals (this can be a cheaper way to go). I got a great scale at Walmart for under $20. Also you may consider keeping a journal. Chicken is a great start protein, but you should be working toward adding variety. Are you still adding kibble to her diet?Have you considered trying her on fresh raw beef? Also she will need to have an Omega 3 supplement.

 

Pulled this information up....

Chicken thighs can range in size, but for typical grocery store brands, figure that four bone-in, skin-on thighs will weigh about 1 ½ pounds. But each of those thighs will yield about 2 ½ to 3 ounces of meat (the rest of the weight is skin and bone)

 

 

 

 

This scale works great for me. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Taylor-Mechanical-Kitchen-Scale-Set-of-2/23209209

 

Hope this info helps, try not to get stressed. It seems daunting at first but you will get the hang of it and soon gain great confidence. Research is key. I will put together some great links for you.

[Guest Lillypad]

This greytalk thread is dated 2009, but (IMO) the best thread regarding a raw fed diet. http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/242512-raw-feeding-basics/

 

 

This is a group that has a lot of great info (albeit, they are a little eccentric take the good stuff leave the politics)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rawfeedingcarnivores/

 

I personally don't feed veggies,(some herbs),it really is a matter of preference, I do however have a great respect for this vet. http://growlies.ca/2013/04/dr-beckers-raw-pet-food-intro/

 

Hope this all helps and once again don't stress, it will all come together. Best wishes, I hope you get that baby of yours fattened up.

[RedHead]

As Lillypad mentioned that diet is fine for the beginning, but eventually you will have to introduce organs and some boneless meat (otherwise the excess calcium can throw off other minerals). Ideally, around half of the meat should be a meaty bone (like thighs) and half should be boneless (like ground chicken, beef chuck, heart, giblets, etc.). You can also sub in other proteins some days such as eggs and tinned fish. It is recommended to start off simple though so what you are doing now if completely fine.

 

Are you feeding the large thighs or the little drumstick things? If they are the big thighs, 4 may be a bit much. I would probably feed my 78 lb male 3 in a day. I usually take the skin off but you don't have to.

 

I would also suggest that you do further reading if you decide you want to switch after a month or so to get all of the specifics. The internet is a great tool but also has a lot of misleading information so I prefer books.

 

 

I personally don't feed veggies,(some herbs),it really is a matter of preference, I do however have a great respect for this vet. http://growlies.ca/2...pet-food-intro/

 

I also really like this vet (I don't do prey model, I add extras in). She has a website and I just bought her raw book after seeing it voted as one of the top raw books in terms of the scientific/nutritional analysis of her diets and being easy to follow and read. I personally like this because I am a bit obsessive/analytic about diet stuff, so I like to follow an actual "recipe." Most people just follow the percentage guidelines which works fine as well.

 

 

 

[Guest Lillypad]

You piqued my interest in that book, RedHead, cause I do like this vet very much. Wow, am I reading this correct... Amazon $55.00 for a paperback!!! I have Lew Olson, Raw and Natural Nutrition for dogs, which has great info on how to put together recipes.

[RedHead]

 

Amazon $55.00 for a paperback!!!

I know, I think it was around $80 when I checked (don't know what's going on there). Anyhow, I went to dogwise (dogwise.com) and ordered it for around $20.

 

I found this article very useful on recommended books (based on nutritional soundness of the diets). This was one of the few that were highly recommended (I like Monica Segal too but her diets are not very practical imo).

http://www.dogaware.com/diet/bookreviews.html#raw (if you click on each book a summary with pros and cons will appear below).

 

 

I also have the Lew Olsen book and personally these are my 2 favourite books in terms of advice and ease of reading (and I have fed raw for 15 years and am pretty sure I own every book on the subject ).

[Guest Lillypad]

Thanks will check the book out at dogwise.com, Wow, so impressed to hear you have been feeding raw 15+. You may be sorry you mentioned that, I may drive you mad with questions. I on the other hand, I have only been feeding 2+ years ( a novice... LOL) Still, after 2 years, I am thrilled when I watch her tear and gnaw at a large piece of meat. I can see without a doubt she is enjoying everything about meal time. I only fed her kibble for about 6 months after adopting her. Thanks to a friend (Battersea Brindles) I got the encouragement and inspiration I needed to make the leap. I can't imagine ever going back to kibble. Are you on Greytalk facebook. Can I contact you there if need be (promise not to be a nuisance). I don't want to hijack Busderpuddles thread any longer. Thanks

[RedHead]

Sorry, I am not on the FB group. I can PM you my e-mail. I don't have any problems at all, am always happy to answer questions!

 

Sorry Busderpuddle for taking your initial question a wee bit off topic . We'll no longer hijack your thread (but feel free to ask any more questions too!).

[Guest Lillypad]

That would be great, I don't know how or if I am even able (apparently have to so many posts first) to PM you here. Once again thanks for your patience Busderpuddle, LOL

[Busderpuddle]

Thank you for the info and book ideas. I was giving her fairly large thighs, but it sounds like too much bone.

She gets diarrhea from burger, so am afraid to give her beef. Would you try it ?

Today I bought a whole chicken that was cut in chunks and gave her a breast and wing. I have not found ground chicken or boneless breasts that are affordable yet.

Any idea how much you spend to feed raw per month ? I looked for a company that would deliver but didn't find one yet. Luckily the Hispanic market has additive free chicken pretty cheap, but with bones.

What about pork and fish ? I have not been giving kibble.

Appreciate all the ideas. She hasn't skipped a meal yet.

[RedHead]

Was the beef burger cooked? I would try lean raw beef for sure. My dogs both have terrible results from cooked beef if it has fat in it. Raw is totally fine. Most greyhounds are fed raw beef on the racetrack so I am sure she has eaten it before. No harm in trying, boneless beef is definitely cheaper than boneless chicken. I would add a small amount with the chicken to see how she does.

 

I don't know if you have seen these but they might be helpful:

 

PacNWRaw ( a yahoo group in the Oregon area...members will likely be able to give you some good meat sources)

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/PacNWRaw/info

 

There are some local companies in your general area (Darwin's Pets, The Meating Place) but these places can be more expensive. Not sure if you have looked into them.

 

Also...if your goal is just to get her to eat, you could always stick with raw/kibble mixes. Sometimes just having the variety in the diet will make them more eager to eat their kibble. Glad to hear she is finally eating though, I hope she gains some weight back!

 

 

[Guest Lillypad]

Yay, sounds great she is not skipping her meals!!!!!! She must be pleased with the cook.. LOL You will gets lots of advice and suggestions from RedHead, I am really just chiming in to cheer you on. All I can say is keep at it. You are experiencing a learning curve. Keep looking for sales and get the word out that you are feeding a raw diet. Nothing wrong with the thighs just add a little to the meal. I will feed ground beef (hamburger meat) but it must to lean and even better extra lean and raw only. It can be pricey, but the trick is to stock up on sales. I have the funniest story about my brother feeding his two Goldens cooked hamburger meat. To summarize, he fed them, left them home alone and when he returned.. well he "sings" it like this... 19 piles of %$#* on the floor, 19 piles of %$#* you clean one up and what'd ya got.... 18 piles... you get the picture. LOL So yes cooked ground will do that, but I have had no problem with raw ground. Trick is to not overload the meal, feed some ground with a bony meat like the thigh and perhaps feed it every second day. You need to slowly build the dogs bowel tolerance.

 

How much do I pay? Gave up calculating that a while back. Because I seem to get great sales, I stock the freezer, and I also have a couple hunter friends. I can say, that I was buying kibble at $80.00 a bag and it was lasting about 6 weeks. So I figure if keeping it at/or under that I am doing fine. Pork, it is a great protein, I mentioned a little about that on your other post. Again ease into it, you can mix it with chicken, if it is extra fatty I will trim it. I freeze for 3-4 weeks. I can get Pork tenderloin for $1.50 a pound on sale. Turkey can also be an economical protein. Got a utility turkey for 90 cents Lbs. Cut it up, bagged into meal sizes, got 8 meals. A deep freezer is pretty much a requirement, I hope you have one. So the short of it, you have to have a little more ingenuity feeding raw than simply carting a bag of kibble from the car to the house. But I LOVE it. I get so excited when I get a meat sale, thrilled when my freezer is packed to the nines. I bet RedHead will say the same... LOL I for one am glad to hear you have not been feeding kibble, but I also understand if it is necessary to add weight and keep cost reasonable. I have friends that mix it up. And lastly your question about fish. I don't feed much fish, but that is because I don't think about it and do not have access to fresh. I do feed a fish oil supplement and if it occurs to me I might feed her a canned fish now and then, but again sparingly. Variety is important, but you have to introduce the new proteins slowly as not to cause gastro/intestinal upset. But introduced properly they tolerate the variety of proteins well. Eggs too are a great protein.. but again follow the golden rule... go slow and space the meals. Good luck, I am happy things are looking up and she is eating.

[Busderpuddle]

She is still loving her meals and I bought some boneless breasts today to add to the other chicken parts. One thing I noticed is she is going out to poop, squatting for a while, with no results. I am assuming she is struggling with constipation from the bone. What do I do about that if she doesn't go soon ?

[Guest Lillypad]

I am rather certain she will go in due course. I suspect it is a little too much bone. I experienced this in the learning curve too. You will learn how to balance this with a little experience. Try to keep in mind (not precisely of course) the ratio, 80/10/5/5. One thing that was explained to me just recently that made a great deal of sense when I though it through. Was that raw feed dogs will have BM based on what they eat. Don't panic and don't expect the consistence and uniform color, texture and size of BM's like kibble fed dogs. (Yucky talk, I know) When I feed a bony meal BM will be dry and pale (calcium of course) when I feed a "bloody meal" like hunk of beef or organ, (liver) it will be softer, dark (sometimes even black ) and maybe like "tar". this is the hemoglobin in the muscle meat. What goes in will come out. If she is uncomfortable and you feel she should have gone by now, try a small piece of liver (about an ounce) Fish oil, yogurt or slippery elm bark (natural gastro/intestinal soother) You will have to purchase SEB at a health food store, but is great to have on hand in your med box) Some like pumpkin, but I really didn't see any results one way or another. I am thrilled she is enjoying her meals (I remember this girl as Little Miss Fussy Face, LOL) Would you attribute this to the food change or her well being at this time or just now in the "mood" and willing to eat. I know at one point you thought there may be a pancreatic issue Folks often say that having troubles is stressful, but like everything in life there is an upside. Unfortunately or fortunately, however you look at it I guess, I may not be the best person to advise on this topic, because I had a very smooth transition from kibble to raw. So with further ado... REDHEAD take it from here... LOL

 

BTW- Our local market has duck on sale for $2 a pound. This will be Lilly's first meals with duck!!! Remember variety is important. The end result... remains to be seen... LOL

Edited February 19, 2015 by Lillypad

[Busderpuddle]

Things are still going well. My husband fed her kibble yesterday, he spaced out the meat in the fridge. She ate it well, so no problems with that. She has also gone poo, although a lot less than before. Not sure how long I will keep this up due to cost. I have not been able to locate decent meat in my area.

I am afraid to try the beef, but guess I should give it another go to make sure there is a problem. The beef that she was fed before was raw burger at the boarding kennel.

[Guest Lillypad]

Seems you are doing all you can to please your girl. It has its challenges at first, but try to persevere. I would try to introduce beef again, in small amounts first. The one and only reason I have not gotten a second hound (you never know though) is because I want to feed raw. But there are other factors too in my case. We do agility/Rally O and that costs for lessons. And then there are vet bills, even though she is healthy, it is still pricey. Just like we are raising a kid all over again. LOL, food/shelter, education... LOL and medical bills ... thank goodness I don't have to clothe her. Best of Luck

[RedHead]

I would try some lean beef chuck or stewing meat. Not as fatty as ground beef. Pork is also cheap.

And, yes I know how expensive raw can be if you don't have a good distributor. I can get a good ground mix when I travel to visit my parents. When I don't have that, I have to make most of my food from the grocery store. It can get very pricey. I currently have mine on kibble (mixed with canned, homecooked, leftovers, etc.) in the morning, and raw in the evening due to cost. They love the variety though, and seem to do well on this.

[Busderpuddle]

With the burger or ground meats, do they tend to inhale it ? I would think with the ground meats, they would eat it in seconds and not chew, rip or tear. Does the ground help their teeth at all ?

Ruby now takes a chunk out to the lawn and spends several minutes crunching and enjoying it. I feel like it is giving her some stimulation along with the food.

Do you feed both ? I still need to find a cheaper source for the meat, or only feed it once a day and use kibble the other meal.

[RedHead]

Yes I feed a mixture of a ground or chopped meal (either the one I buy or I make my own) that is boneless. I supplement this with meaty bones which provides some chewing. My dogs don't inhale the ground, but they don't exactly chew it either. It doesn't have any starches or additives like canned food, so I don't find it collects plaque to the extent of kibble/canned. Teague has not-so-great teeth no matter what he eats, but all of my non-greys had fabulous teeth on this diet.

[Guest brit1]

I was wondering how much chicken necks (weight or number) would balance a meal of 1/2lb boneless meat? My dog weighs 55lbs so I usually give him about 4 necks for breakfast and then 1/2lb of meat in evening meal. I also add a cup of pureed raw vegetables (zuccini/collard/apple/carrot/parsley etc) and he is in good weight. On days I don't feed necks (often use rinsed canned pink salmon and goat yogurt) I add 1/2tsp ground organic egg shells to the boneless meal ( rinse and let them dry prior to grinding in my coffee mill). He also gets raw egg yolks often. thanks brit

[RedHead]

Generally speaking, if you feed the same amount of RMB to balance boneless meat, you should be getting a good amount of calcium without having too much. So...if you are feeding 1/2 lb of boneless meat, you could feed around the same weight in necks or a little less. I am assuming you are adding some organ meat in as well?

[Guest kisstherain]

Hi, I don’t know if you know this already, but once you get your hound on raw diet, you should expect to see a decrease in the amount of times they need to poop as well as the amount of poop each time. My hound had been on a kibble diet before she came to me, and once I started feeding her raw her poop decreased significantly, sometimes maybe 2 or 3 one inch pebbles. I think it is because the kibble contains a lot of things they can’t necessarily digest/absorb, resulting in more poop. Don’t be too alarmed if you see a decrease in pooping after switching to raw. I would be concerned however if it was constipation. Usually I add a dollop of yogurt (whole milk yogurt) and a few drops of apple cider vinegar with each meal to help with digestion. Hope this helps!

[XTRAWLD]

How's Ruby been doing? I'm just checking in since I saw this thread was from mid Feb.

 

I tried the raw portions like you (give some meat, throw in some bone and organ), and eventually gave up and bought it all ground, just so I didn't have to fuss with ratios and that my fridge wasn't taken over by "their" food. I like how their stools are pretty balanced with the ground.

 

The constipation would be because there is too much bone in the diet. You'll have to either back off on the bone or add more organ.

[Guest Johberry]

Also wondering how the OP and Ruby are doing with the raw diet. We've been on the same route relatively recently, but like XTRAWLD have resorted to a ground mix to make life easier. Unfortunately, we don't have anything available locally except for an Oma's Pride distributor I've just ordered from earlier this week. Yes, it's expensive and not ideal especially since the Oma's mixes have veggies. Still plan to continue utilizing local butchers and grocery stores for whole meats and organs but will have to keep with Oma for the raw green tripe and convenient mixes. My DBF jokes that our hound eats better than we do.

[Busderpuddle]

I fed Ruby raw for about 3 weeks and she did OK, but did start turning her nose up even to the raw chicken breasts. She is just a stinker. I wasn't able to find a local butcher that would grind it for me and I was stressing myself out over the ratio. We went back to kibble due to cost and the fact the Ruby really didn't continue to eat the raw. I also noticed that she was biting herself quite a bit more, like she had fleas. She didn't though and is on monthly meds. Not sure if that was related or not.