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NeylasMom

Dry Air Causing Increased Drinking? New Theories/update #37

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Any change in type or source of what you're feeding (main meals, treats)?


Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Any change in type or source of what you're feeding (main meals, treats)?

Nope, all the same

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Not sure how much it helps -- my 3 dogs have been drinking more but, being in Mass the weather has been cold and dry so I have attributed the increased consumption to that.

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If he has LS it may be he loses control at night when he's totaly relaxed. This happened to my male, Dalton, who was almost 14 when I had to euthanize. I took him to A&M vet school & we did lots of tests. Ultimately he just couldn't hold it at night when he was in a deep sleep.


scootersig_A4.jpg

 

Pam with greys Avril, Dalton & Zeus & Diddy the dachshund & Miss Buzz the kitty

Devotion, Jingle Bells, Rocky, Hans, Harbor, Lennon, NoLa, Scooter, Naomi and Scout at the bridge

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Did he improve at all on the antibiotics? My osteo girl just had a UTI, and culture came back completely clear. 2 weeks on ABs cleared her up and she's been doing great since. She was drinking tons and peeing whenever she slept no matter how often I took her out. I would say it probably took about a week before I noticed a distinct difference on the antibiotics.

Edited by EffieGrey

Effie (Nadine's Effie), Carmen (PHX Downtown), & Benny (the chihuahua)

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Did he improve at all on the antibiotics? My osteo girl just had a UTI, and culture came back completely clear. 2 weeks on ABs cleared her up and she's been doing great since. She was drinking tons and peeing whenever she slept no matter how often I took her out.

Yes, he actually did better while on the ABs and then got worse again. That's what brought lyme disease to my mind because I was trying to think of anything that might have been somewhat improved by the Amoxicillin. I don't think there's a chance my vet is going to go for putting him back on ABs. I had to push to get them the first time and he's now had 2 clear urinalyses and a negative culture. But I know you're not the only one - I do remember George having this issue for a really long time. :dunno


gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Have you thought about it being in his head? Psychogenic Polydipsia?

It's crossed my mind, but I highly doubt it. Relatively sudden onset of obvious symptoms in an older dog with no history of behavioral issues like this, just doesn't make sense to me. Plus there's the fact that his symptoms abated somewhat while on the ABs and worsened once off of them. Could be coincidence, especially with the freezing cold temps we're having now if it's weather related, but my gut said UTI from the start. I have a really hard time believing this isn't medical given the way it presented itself.

 

Our second humidifier came today. Going to get that going and also seen if anything changes this weekend when we have a balmy 30 degree day or two, but if this continues through the weekend I'm calling my vet on Monday and begging for a course of Clavamox.

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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So last night I had a random thought and remembered that I have this supplement from Vetriscience called UT Strength. I dug it out to make sure I had enough left since I was thinking it might be a good option to try for Zuri. But then I started wondering why I actually had it :P and finally remembered that Zuri had similar issues to what's going on now after his dental in May. Here's what I posted back then:

 

Early May - Zuri had a dental and lump (benign) removal

He was slower to recover from anesthesia but otherwise everything was fine, but I noticed him drinking a lot more water and needing to go out more frequently (he was barking to be taken out at odd times). Suspected a UTI, but U/A was clear and urine was concentrated, and vet thought perhaps his bladder was just irritated. Put him on a Vetri-science supplement for bladder health for 10 days and then said we'd recheck. I felt I noticed immediate improvement, but when he went off of it, symptoms came back. I was doing a workshop that required long days away so I kept him on it a bit longer. He's been off of it now for over a week and seems to be doing okay.

 

So now I am thinking that there is a stress component involved and I'm wondering if this means it could be completely stress related, or there is something underlying (like maybe an infection the tests aren't picking up) that is rearing it's ugly head when stress happens. As far as the first time, the stress there is obvious - anesthesia and surgery. This time, the only thing I can think is that the *start* of these symptoms did somewhat coincide with me taking him to Coventry for nosework classes and demo dog training work. That's not super stressful, but he did have to make some adjustments to being crated in a new place and being around a lot of new dogs.

 

Unfortunately my vet isn't back in until Monday. I would like to talk to her before I do anything, but I'm wondering if I should just start him on the UT Strength in the meantime. Any thoughts on whether this makes it more or less likely a medical issue like an infection we're missing? Has anyone heard of stress causing issues like this repeatedly? We're chalking Violet's post anesthesia ordeal up to "stress cystitis" so I know it does exist, but I find the recurrence with mild stress concerning.

 

Thanks for hanging in there with me. My dogs never seem to have clear cut issues. :headwall

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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sounds like a win-win situation. the amount of roots/vit c won't hurt and they should clear out of his system in a short time if it doesn't work.

I guess I'm afraid if there isn't something else going on, we'll just "suppress" it again for a period of time until it resurfaces again later. But if it will give Zuri some relief...


gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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So thanks again for anyone hanging in there with me. Friday will be 2 weeks that Zuri has been back on the UT Strength Stat - so far no noticeable changes. Saw my vet yesterday with this "new" information and her feeling is probably just stress related inflammation, but said if we wanted to pursue more tests the next step would be a bladder x-ray involving dye that gets injected of some sort. Yeah, we're not there yet.

But in the middle of the night, when Zuri woke me up yet again, I had another idea. He had been getting up to drink water, but I've been pulling it up shortly before bed. He still sometimes wakes up, then resettles pretty immediately, but last night I noticed him doing a dry wretching sort of thing and it made me wonder - could he be drinking because his throat is irritated? That would certainly make sense post intubation from the dental,but it went on for quite some time afterward (over 4 weeks). Does anyone think/know if it's possible he had irritation that took that long to go away and whether excessive barking when I took him to Coventry could have reaggravated it or caused something anew? I have noticed him doing this little hacking type noise here and there for some time now that I think about it. It's not coughing fwiw.

 

My only other thought was maybe this is the beginnings of liver disease? I've read that sometimes these are the only initial symptoms. If that was the case, are there any sort of "early detection" blood tests we could run, or anything I should look more closely at on his blood panel? That seems less likely to me, but he has been on Robaxin for a while now and the vet also mentioned Peroxicam as a possible treatment if we assume bladder inflammation, which I wouldn't want to do if we suspected liver issues. Obviously I think the liver thing is a stretch but I am sort of grasping at straws here.

 

I am planning to ask my vet these questions as well, but she's out today and their office may very well close tomorrow because of weather so I may not get to talk to her until next week. In the meantime, I was thinking of trying some honey to see if that helps. Any other ideas on helping potential throat irritation?

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Nevermind, found what I was looking for, but I'll leave these up anyway.

 

2/17/2015

L

1

Chemistry results from IDEXX Reference Laboratory

Requisition ID: 9249 Posted Final

Test Result Reference Range

ALB 3.3 g/dL 2.7 - 3.9

TP 6.0 g/dL 5.5 - 7.5

ALKP 67 U/L 5 - 160

GLU 95 mg/dL 63 - 114

ALT 35 U/L 18 - 121

CREA 1.5 mg/dL 0.5 - 1.5

Sodium 148 mmol/L 142 - 152

Potassium 4.5 mmol/L 4.0 - 5.4

Chloride 112 mmol/L 108 - 119

GLOB 2.7 g/dL 2.4 - 4.0

ANION GAP 23 mmol/L 11 - 26

AST 19 U/L 16 - 55

BICARB 18 mmol/L 13 - 27

BUN/UREA 19 mg/dL 9 - 31

Ca 10.1 mg/dL 8.8 - 11.2

CHOL 168 mg/dL 131 - 345

DBIL 0.1 mg/dL 0.0 - 0.1

GGT 3 U/L 0 - 13

IBIL 0.2 mg/dL 0.0 - 0.2

PHOS 3.5 mg/dL 2.5 - 6.1

TBIL 0.3 mg/dL 0.0 - 0.3

A/G Ratio 1.2 0.7 - 1.5

B/C Ratio 12.7

Na/K Ratio 33 28 - 37

CK 79 U/L 10 - 200

Ascn: 2100163818

RE: 281 HEMOLYSIS INDEX 1+

Index of N, 1+, 2+ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values.

RE: 282 LIPEMIA INDEX N

Index of N, 1+, 2+ exhibits no significant effect on chemistry values.



2/17/2015

L

1

Endocrinology results from IDEXX Reference Laboratory

Requisition ID: 9249 Posted Final

Test Result Reference Range

T4 <0.4 ug/dL L 1.0 - 4.0

Ascn: 2100163818


Interpretive ranges:

<1.0 Low

1.0-4.0 Normal

>4.0 High

2.1-5.4 Therapeutic

Dogs with no clinical signs of hypothyroidism and results within the

normal reference range are likely euthyroid. Dogs with low T4

concentrations may be hypothyroid or euthyroid sick . Occasionally,

hypothyroid dogs can have T4 concentrations that are low normal. Dogs

with clinical signs of hypothyroidism and low or low normal T4

concentrations may be evaluated further by submission of free T4 and

canine TSH. A high T4 concentration in a clinically normal dog is

likely variation of normal; however elevations may occur secondary to

thyroid autoantibodies or rarely thyroid neoplasia. For dogs on

thyroid supplement, acceptable 4-6 hour post pill total T4

concentrations generally fall within the higher end or slightly above

the reference range.



2/17/2015

L

1

Hematology results from IDEXX Reference Laboratory

Requisition ID: 9249 Posted Final

Test Result Reference Range

BASO 0.0 %

EOS 5.5 %

HCT 58.4 % 50.0 - 65.0

HGB 19.6 g/dL 13.4 - 20.7

LYMPHS 25.7 %

MCH 23.3 pg 21.9 - 26.1

MCHC 33.6 g/dL 32.6 - 39.2

MCV 69 fL 59 - 76

MONOS 5.5 %

NEUT SEG 63.3 %

PLATELETS 109 K/uL 80 - 150

RBC 8.42 M/uL 5.39 - 8.70

RETIC CNT 0.2 %

WBC 2.7 K/uL L 4.5 - 7.5

ABS BASO 0 /uL 0 - 100

ABS EOS 149 /uL 70 - 1490

ABS LYMPHS 694 /uL L 1060 - 4950

ABS MONOS 149 /uL 130 - 1150

ABS NEUTS 1709 /uL L 2940 - 12670

ABS RET 17 K/uL 10 - 110

Ascn: 2100163818

RE: 3034 REMARKS

REMARKS

SLIDE REVIEWED MICROSCOPICALLY.



2/17/2015

L

1

UA/Microscopy results from IDEXX Reference Laboratory

Requisition ID: 9249 Posted Final

Test Result Reference Range

BACTERIA NONE SEEN HPF

BILIRUBIN 2+

BLOOD NEGATIVE

CASTS NONE SEEN HPF

CLARITY HAZY

COLOR YELLOW

CRYSTALS NONE SEEN HPF

EPI CELL 1+ (1-2) HPF

GLUCOSE NEGATIVE

KETONES NEGATIVE

MUCUS NONE SEEN

OTHER

PH 6.5

PROTEIN NEGATIVE

RBC NONE SEEN HPF

SP GRAVITY 1.029

UROB NORMAL

WBC NONE SEEN HPF 0 - 5

Ascn: 2100163818

RE: 900 COLLECTION METHOD FREE-CATCH


OTHER

NON-CRYSTALLINE DEBRIS PRESENT

Protein test is performed and confirmed by the sulfosalicylic acid

test.

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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My blood work should look so good ;-). The WBC is a bit low (neutrophils)--do you have a results from an earlier result to compare? One other thing I noticed--the T4 is low (no surprise) but, the cholesterol was normal (high cholesterol can be seen with hypoT dogs). Also the USG was good--pretty concentrated for a known pu/pd dog. First a.m. catch?

A bile acids test would be the next test to run to check liver function but, it really doesn't look indicated.

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My blood work should look so good ;-). The WBC is a bit low (neutrophils)--do you have a results from an earlier result to compare? One other thing I noticed--the T4 is low (no surprise) but, the cholesterol was normal (high cholesterol can be seen with hypoT dogs). Also the USG was good--pretty concentrated for a known pu/pd dog. First a.m. catch?

A bile acids test would be the next test to run to check liver function but, it really doesn't look indicated.

That's all good to hear overall.

 

WBC - Prior to this, we last did blood work in April of 2014, prior to his dental. His WBC then was 3400. It looks like in Feb of '13 it was 3300 and in Feb of '12 it was 3200. I don't have results older than that handy, but that essentially fits with what the vet told me, which is that his tend to hover in the low 3,000's so this could be low even for him. He suggested a quick panel to recheck a little bit down the road if I wanted to see if there was a downhill trend, but my regular vet who I saw yesterday didn't bring it up.

 

T4 always shows up low like that for him. It was the same in April of last year so we ran a full panel with MSU to be safe; results:

Test Result Reference Range

 

T4 = 5 L 11 ­ 60

T3 = 1.0 0.8 ­ 2.1

FREE T4 = 4 L 9 ­ 39

FREE T3 = QNS 1.2 ­ 8.2

T4 A.A.B = 10 0 ­ 20

T3 A.A.B. = 6 0 ­ 10

TSH = 10 0 ­ 30

THY.GLOB.A = 11 0 ­ 35

 

I don't have it handy, but my vet didn't originally request an interpretation so after we got these results I asked her to get one and MSU said no indication of disease was present.

 

That urine wasn't a first AM catch. I caught it at the vet's office, around 2 pm. He had probably had some water that day, but he tends to do the most excessive drinking at night or overnight so I suspect a first catch would be more dilute, even just based on what I can say (it's visibly more dilute first thing and of course a larger quantity). But still, he obviously has the ability to concentrate his urine.

 

Is a bilirubin level of 2+ in urine normal for a male dog? I know I am REALLY reaching here, but his total and direct bilirubin in his blood are also at the highest end of the normal range and I've read that somewhat similar to kidney disease you don't start seeing all of the wacky blood levels with liver disease until the liver is very damaged. Of course, liver disease also wouldn't fit with the fact that he was asymptomatic from about mid June until sometime in January.

 

Which brings me back to underlying infection in the urinary system, just cystitis from stress as my vet suspects, or maybe I'm on to something with the hacking and gagging and his throat being irritated?

 

Regardless, if there are any tests you'd recommend that we haven't done, let me know. I don't want to pursue anything particularly invasive or outrageously expensive, but I do want to do what I can to make sure we're not missing something. I feel like it seems like I'm overreacting to some water drinking and peeing, but I know this isn't normal for him so *something* has to be going on.

Edited by NeylasMom

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Are you giving a joint supplement supplement?? There's been some research on its anti-inflammatory effects within the bladder. Works pretty well with the chronic cystitis kitties.

Edited to add --link

 

http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/component/kunena/17-dasuquin/2316-dasuquin-used-for-kitty-cystitis?Itemid=0

I haven't done research to see if it's helpful in dogs but, I think it's a benign thing to try

Edited by tbhounds

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Yeah, he's already on fish oil, a probiotic (Proflora), and a joint supplement (K9 Acti-flex). I appreciate the suggestion though.

 

I was starting to say that I could probably consider using another natural anti-inflammatory like Curcumin or Bromelain rather than the Previcox my vet mentioned, but it looks like that UT Strength every day supplement has Bromelain. That's the every day version of the UT Strength Stat we are using now that will run me over $30/month. :( But since I can't keep him on the Stat for much longer I will probably order one bag of these and see if they help.


gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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So we've been having issues with increased water consumption and some accidents/waking me up to go out in the middle of the night. Little back story here.

 

The urinalysis results from that visit were all normal and the culture didn't grow anything. We did a 7 day course of Amoxi anyway and I still felt he was drinking more than normal, but no accidents or waking me in the middle of the night. Since then it's continued sort of hte same although the last couple of days he is gulping down large quantities at the water bowl, even more than he has been. I think the lack of accidents/wake up calls has just been because I am being more careful about our schedule and getting him out a bit more frequently.

 

One thing I'm wondering is if it's the dry air as the gulping even larger quantities has coincided with this horrific low windchill weather and the dry air and heater constantly running, but it seems excessive to just be that. We have a cold laser appt on Tuesday so I guess I'll have them pull blood and see if anything turns up.

 

Has anyone experienced a drastic change in water consumption simply because of weather? Does anyone have other ideas for what could be going on? UTI seems to be off the table, glucose was normal on his u/a so I think diabetes is out, he's still concentrating his urine just fine so I don't think we're looking at kidney issues. Someone mentioned heart issues in the other thread so I will definitely ask her to give a good listen to his heart. Anything else we can check/do?

 

Worried about my boy. :( He's 10 1/2 now but he's under contract to live until at least 15 so we can't be having more issues this early on - his LS is enough thank you very much.

 

I know this was a long time ago, but did you ever get a definitive(ish) diagnosis? We're dealing with a similar mystery and the U/As, urine cultures, usual-suspects, etc have all come back negative/normal. There are so many variables that we're looking for as much info as we can before we deep dive into a million tests :(

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I know this was a long time ago, but did you ever get a definitive(ish) diagnosis? We're dealing with a similar mystery and the U/As, urine cultures, usual-suspects, etc have all come back negative/normal. There are so many variables that we're looking for as much info as we can before we deep dive into a million tests :(

Well my memory is a bit foggy, but I know we went to an internal medicine specialist and ran the cortisol test and did an ultrasound and both were normal. Pretty sure she diagnosed it as psychogenic polydipsia (stress related), which is basically a diagnosis once you've eliminated anything else. He did get bone cancer the following year and his kidneys went downhill at the end, though presumably because of his bisphosphonate treatment so I suppose there is always a possibility that there was somethimg brewing, but it was probably stress related.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Well my memory is a bit foggy, but I know we went to an internal medicine specialist and ran the cortisol test and did an ultrasound and both were normal. Pretty sure she diagnosed it as psychogenic polydipsia (stress related), which is basically a diagnosis once you've eliminated anything else. He did get bone cancer the following year and his kidneys went downhill at the end, though presumably because of his bisphosphonate treatment so I suppose there is always a possibility that there was somethimg brewing, but it was probably stress related.

Thanks for replying! And so sorry you lost your guy :(

 

Was there anything you could really do for the PP?

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Thanks for replying! And so sorry you lost your guy :(

 

Was there anything you could really do for the PP?

Yes, address the stress that was causing it. Unfortunately my memory is so poor on this, but I do know the issue resolved and then maybe came back one more time and resolved again.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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how about adding rice to his diet. it's 90% water and it will reduce the water consumption. dogs do need a cooler environment. at 68 our dogs are hot in our house. the do better when it's in the mid to low 60s.

 

at one point felix was drinking nearly 3xs the amount he should(there is a formula for how much water per lb). i measured his intake and out put over a 2 day period. it's hard to figure out the respiration rate and in the middle of the night i missed collecting pee. we tested and treated for lyme since it can possibly be one of the symptoms. no change w/ doxy.

 

then he was briefly treated for diabetes incipidus- symptoms disappeared almost instantly after his first dose of vasopressin tannate. the second month we tried a lower dose, no go, gave his the remaining dose and then he never showed symptoms again. go know...?? good luck figuring this out.

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I have not read all the responses, but our girl Razzy was having pee accidents in the house, drinking a ton, and ruled out negative for UTI's. This happened several years in a row with no diagnosis. When we looked back through her records, it was always around November when we first turn the heat on. She was drinking more and peeing more whenever the heat was on. We now run a heavy duty humidifier and try to limit her water intake in the winter months.


Jen, Tessa & Raspberry
Forever in my heart, my boys: Quiet Man, Murphy, Ducky & Wylie
www.greyhoundadventures.org

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UPDATE????

Not sure who you're speaking to here; the OP hound passed after the majority of this thread was discussed. But that pup was diagnosed with psychogenic polydipsia as the probable cause for the issue.

 

We're doing a bit of wait and see with our guy; besides the drinking/peeing he has a lot of things that could be symptoms of something, but they could also be behavioral or just his personality. The first variable I want to eliminate is that he is almost done with the Prison Protocol for hookworms and it's a pretty intensive regimen that definitely could be impacting his kidneys and who knows what else. We have the last dose in two weeks and then we can see if anything improves once he doesn't have all those drugs running through him.

 

Did your vet require you to do the input/output measuring before they treated for diabetes insipidus? Were there any others diagnostic tests they did? Was it an expensive treatment? I'd love for it to be as easy as that :)

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