Last Resort...if I Can't Find A Solution I Have To Return Him. Pl

[seeh2o]

This sounds very familiar to me, though Carl would actually damage things, pull down shades, scratch at the door, etc. I talked with the vet and he put him on Clomipramine Hydrochloride, which takes several weeks to get up to a therapeutic level in the blood stream. In order to be able to get out the door to go to work, while we waited on the Clomipramine to kick, the vet prescribed him Valium. That combination helped a lot. And, very importantly, I got in touch with a local greyhound group that basically adopted us, Carl was from an all breed rescue group in the high desert, so we were not tethered to a local group. They put me in touch with a woman who had tremendous experience with greyhounds and who took a lot of time to talk to me, asking questions about me, about Carl, etc. She gave me suggestions and helped me so much. I put the crate away, used a basket muzzle (which I actually witnessed is body relax when I put it on him the first time) and gave him access to the house. I also used my telephone and cell phone as a baby monitor, when he would start to carry on, I would say his name. He thought I was home and would quiet down. I walked him 2.5 - 3 miles every morning, which helped wear him out mentally and physically. I also did a lot of alone training, initially, I had the same response you did and I will confess that a big part of the problem was me and my frustration and anxiety. Once I had someone to talk to about it and the meds kicked in, there was improvement. He was on the meds for about 6 months or so, I wish I'd kept him on the meds for at least 9 months, that way his newly learned coping skills would have been more ingrained.

 

There is no shame in using medication, it is a temporary tool, not a crutch. It relieved Carl of his anxiety and allowed him to learn new coping skills, once the coping skills became part of his normal behavioral habits, I was able to wean him off under the vet's care.

 

Don't get another dog just to calm your dog down, you could have twice the problems on your hands. When I got Carl's littermate (2 years after he came to live with me and well after we had his SA under control) he had a relapse, having her here actuall made his SA come back, but it only lasted for a month and was never as bad as it had been. Ultimately, Carl always howled for about 1 minute whenever I left the house, but would find his way to my bed and spend most of the day snoozing away.

 

I just wanted to add that both Carl and I were miserable initially, but we got through it and he was a very happy boy. We loved each other fiercely. There is also no shame in returning a dog if it isn't a good match because it happens and is no one's fault.

Edited January 17, 2015 by seeh2o

[Batmom]

Whereabouts are you located? Might be an adoption group or some friendly greytalkers nearby who could help in the short term (providing daycare, lending you a dog to see if he'd be better with a buddy, etc.), until you can get things sorted out.

 

I'm sorry you and your boy are going through this.

[Guest Quinton1]

I truly appreciate this forum and all of your insight! I will try your suggestions this week. I have not considered adopting another dog from a foster if Quinton doesn't work out. It does make sense though. To answer Greyaholic's questions...

you said he sleeps in the crate quietly at night. Is the crate in your bedroom with you, or elsewhere? The crate is in my bedroom. Every night I wake him up from sleeping in his bed in the living room and say "kennel" and he stands up and walks to his crate, most nights I dont even have to touch him he just goes in the crate and sleeps 8 - 9 hours without a peep.

When do you do your walk, versus when you leave the house? I walk him first thing in the morning for 45 mins to an hour. Sometimes I have to leave for a meeting sometimes I stay home, I work from home so my schedule varies. He gets walks at least 4 times a day and long ones at least once a day.

You say you put toys and treats in the crate? What kind? I started with a peanut butter filled kong, but after a week that no longer kept his interest and he now doesnt pay attention to anything I leave him. Food or toy.

How old is your dog? Does he ever get a chance to run off leash? He just turned 4 and his last race was in November. I take him to the dog park at least 3 times a week and he is off the leash. I just spent several hours there.

Is he ever destructive? Does he urinate or defecate when you leave him, or does he just vocalize? He has only torn up a new dog bed that I put in the crate a week ago. He only barks when I leave him.

What dosages of Prozac and Xanax is he on now and how frequently are you giving them? Are you giving the Xanax routinely or just before you leave - if the latter, how long before? I just got the pills yesterday. He was prescribed 1/2 of a Xanex 1 mg and 20 mg of Prozac. I have given the Xanex twice and it has had no effect.

Do you have someone who could watch him for you when you have to leave until you work through this, or could you take him with you? I have taken him with me many times over the last 2 weeks to combat the noise complaints. I will be trying doggy day care this week.

 

I have reached out to a local greyhound trainer and am awaiting a response. I have been in constant contact with the track and they suggested as a last resort to use the drugs. There are only issues when I have to leave, there is no whining, barking, etc. until then. At this point I want to do what is best for him, but I also don't want to give up too quickly. I have a lot of extra time to work with him, especially since I work from home and that is one of the reasons why I chose his breed to adopt. Overall he seems happy to be here and we have adapted well together. I understand that another dog or returning him might be the only thing that will work, but I would like to continue to try at least until the apartment management tells me otherwise.

[NeylasMom]

It was actually me that asked those questions, thanks for answering in detail. It sounds like he's getting plenty of exercise and the crate isn't an issue because he's being isolated too much (I was concerned he might be being forced to sleep in a crate in a separate room from you). Typically with separation anxiety you see destructive behavior and/or urinating or defecating as well, but you're also not leaving him for really long periods at any given time. Often you also see signs of anxiety as you prepare to leave - dogs tend to pick up on our routines (you put on your shoes, get your coat, grab your keys, etc.) and will start to get anxious when they see that - pacing, panting, etc. So what you're describing isn't completely typical, but does sound like at least a mild form of SA to me. With a dog who has SA, you either need to have alternate arrangements when you do leave (daycare is an excellent option if he enjoys it, but for many greyhounds it's too much) or you get the meds on board, but of course as you know it can take time for them to take effect and not every med works for each dog. Chlomicalm is more commonly prescribed for SA, but it's difficult/expensive to get right now. You might ask your vet about it though - it may be possible to get it from a compounding pharmacy for a reasonable price. You have a lot of room to increase the Xanax dosage (obviously don't do that without your vet's approval), but I found it didn't help Violet at all with her SA. Again, each dog is different. I would say while you might give the Prozac a chance, in the meantime if you don't see an effect from teh Xanax pretty immediately I would ask your vet about Trazodone or Valium instead.

 

Definitely also get DAP on board (I prefer the collars, which are available on Amazon - the small size is usually sufficient for most greyhounds). You could try Composure chews as well.

 

Once the meds are actually on board, then you can proceed with the alone training (so put the kabosh on it for now and work out another solution when you have to leave if at all possible). There are 2 resources I really like for help with SA, Patricia McConnell's booklet, I'll Be Home Soon and the more detailed Treating SA in Dogs. The author of that book is primarily focused on SA consults in her actual business. SHe's located in CA, but you might look into whether she does phone consults: http://malenademartini.com/for-owners/how-i-help/

 

One last thought - you might "borrow" a greyhound from someone for a day or two and see if that "cures" your dog. For many dogs it doesn't, but for some - especially greyhounds because of the way they were raised - it's an instant fix. As in problem completely solved. If that's teh case for your dog, as tough as it might be, I might think about rehoming him so that he can live with another dog rather than medicating him to force being an only. That's a personal decision though and I wouldn't blame you for sticking with him regardless since he is your dog and you've already formed a bond with him.

Good luck. Let us know how things progress.

[MaryJane]

I've seen apps like this before ... I don't know if it would make things better, worse, or no difference.. just wanted to throw it out there.

 

http://gizmorati.com/2014/02/03/icpooch-a-remote-treat-dispenser-pet-facetime-terminal-for-dogs/

[JJNg]

Lots of great advice here already. One additional thought... Especially since it seems like his barking escalated with attempts at alone training, I'm almost wondering if it's possible that at least part of the issue is that you've inadvertently trained him to bark when you leave to get you to come back. Have there been times when you've returned to him while he was barking, because you didn't want it to continue and further annoy your neighbors?

 

If this is the case, I honestly don't know how to approach it unless you have very tolerant neighbors, or can ask them to be very patient for a few weeks. The way I've addressed attention-seeking barking is to ignore the dog until the barking stops, even if it's just a 2-3 second break in the barking. Timing is very important, and you need to give the dog attention and praise, or let him out of the crate, during that quiet interval. If you give attention while the dog is still barking (or has started up again), you've rewarded the barking. It does take time and patience, as well as consistency and proper timing. If the dog is getting the idea, the pauses in barking should start lasting longer and you can gradually extend the period of quiet time before you reward the dog.

 

As others have mentioned, if you're working on alone training, your absences should be so brief in the beginning that he doesn't have a chance to start barking.

Edited January 18, 2015 by JJNg

[a_daerr]

There is no shame in using medication, it is a temporary tool, not a crutch. It relieved Carl of his anxiety and allowed him to learn new coping skills, once the coping skills became part of his normal behavioral habits, I was able to wean him off under the vet's care.

 

AMEN! Best advice anyone could give, IMHO.

 

This is a bit of a hijack, but it deserves to be said. How dare anyone suggest that this owner is wrong for trying behavioral modification drugs. If your dog was having a seizure, you'd give him meds, wouldn't you? If he had an infection, you'd give him meds. Why is it that no one considers anxiety a 'real' medical problem? This OP clearly cares for the dog and wants to make it work. He's doing the best he can.

[o_rooly]

AMEN! Best advice anyone could give, IMHO.

 

This is a bit of a hijack, but it deserves to be said. How dare anyone suggest that this owner is wrong for trying behavioral modification drugs. If your dog was having a seizure, you'd give him meds, wouldn't you? If he had an infection, you'd give him meds. Why is it that no one considers anxiety a 'real' medical problem? This OP clearly cares for the dog and wants to make it work. He's doing the best he can.

I agree, too. Extends to mental-health issues in humans, too.

Medication can buy your dog a few more spoons to spend on learning coping mechanisms. http://yourdogsfriend.org/spoon-theory-and-funny-dog-gifs/

I don't have any advice in regard to SA, unfortunately, but I am following along and beaming good thoughts.

[4My2Greys]

This is a bit of a hijack, but it deserves to be said. How dare anyone suggest that this owner is wrong for trying behavioral modification drugs. If your dog was having a seizure, you'd give him meds, wouldn't you? If he had an infection, you'd give him meds. Why is it that no one considers anxiety a 'real' medical problem? This OP clearly cares for the dog and wants to make it work. He's doing the best he can.

And I will give an AMEN to this.

OP, I hope you can figure out something that works, but if not you should feel no shame in returning him and finding another that adapts better as an only dog.

[claudiav]

I take drugs when I'm sick. I have no problem with drugs for mental health issues either. I take those too.

 

what I have a problem with is putting a dog fresh off the track on Prozac b/c he barks when owner leaves. he misses his owner. he shouldn't be medicated for it. owner cares more about neighbors complaints than dog, if three weeks off the track he is to be medicated for nothing more than barking.

 

he clearly has SA and if he is going to be an only dog, this is not the right home for him. He needs to be in a home with another greyhound, or where he won't be medicated simply b/c he barks. I've read the rest of this thread, and I would let him out of the crate, get a second greyhound to keep him company and solve the SA right off the bat, or move. but that's just me. the OP clearly doesn't have these choices available, so I would take him off the unnecessary meds immediately and bring him back. he doesn't need them when the only "undesirable action" is barking and the neighbors don't like it. My dogs go above and beyond my neighbors.....

[NeylasMom]

There are so many contradictory statements in that explanation that I don't even know how to clearly respond. "Simple because he barks" does not equal separation anxiety. If a dog is just barking out of boredom or because he's learned it's a behavior that works, that's one thing and medication isn't what's needed there, training is. However, anxiety does often require medication (or some other natural calming aid) in order to help the dog cope she he can progress through the training.

 

As for another dog, that is not an automatic cure for many dogs with separation anxiety. Moving also won't cure this dog's anxiety. And letting him out of the crate has already been tried and hasn't helped either.

 

The bottom line is, none of us actually know why the dog is barking when his owner is leaving. We're not there to observe the behavior. The best advice anyone can give is that the owner should consult a skilled trainer or behaviorist who can observe the dog and help him move forward. But to make blanket accusations that the owner isn't doing enough for the dog or that he's being irresponsible medicating the dog when the medication has been prescribed by an actual professional with the dog's history is just downright ridiculous.

[Batmom]

What NeylasMom said.

[racindog]

take him off drugs and return him. you should not put a perfectly healthy dog on Prozac simply b/c he barks or whines when you leave. He is missing you and that's normal. He should not be drugged for this.

EXACTLY. He may need some time to adjust but he definitely doesn't need his mind and body screwed up with mind changing drugs. That will accomplish nothing more than to hurt him imo.

[NeylasMom]

This seems like the right time to officially say welcome to GT Quinton1. :

[Guest Amber]

Yeah, totally agree with Neylasmum. Believe me compaints from neighbours when you live in an apartment IS a big problem (can become a legal issue if the local authority gets involved) and quite right too, no one should have to live with a dog in an apt barking for hours on end. It is not fair on the dog or the neighbours. In real life most people can't just up and move to a secluded detached house with no neighbours just because we'd like to! In any case, moving house would cause the dog (and owner) even more stress in the short term.

 

To straight away adopt a 2nd dog when the first one is being difficult could be a recipe for disaster. It works for some to cure SA but not all and would likely just triple the OPs problems.

 

Anyway I hope things are getting better and the OP will come back to let us know.

[Guest sireltonsmom]

Good Luck Quinton1. I suggest you do as much reading (google perhaps) and try the methods that sound like something you can do. You sure are doing all that's been suggested here. Vocalization is tough. The one thing I'd recommend is as suggested previously that you talk with your neighbors and 1) ask their patience 2) ask their suggestions or experience with SA dogs so they feel a part of the process and may have more empathy for you. Hope this works out for you.

 

[Guest bubbagum]

I agree with most that has been said. It sounds like he is a dog that needs others around. There is no shame in retuning him for another that is believed to be OK as an only dog. If you have an adoption group nearby, they can help you find the right dog. Dogs that have been fostered have people who know them. They are also available to help you with questions. This dog may be a lot happier boy in another situation. I hope you won't give up on greyhounds. They're wonderful, but all different.

[seeh2o]

What NeylasMom said.

 

Exactly. Naysayers will be naysayers, it's their mindset, doesn't need to be yours, just move forward. Carl and I lived through this, too. I'm glad I gave him medication, we both learned together and he came off the medication and lived a happy loving life with me. If I'd taken advice like that he wouldn't have lived with me and that would have been terrible for both of us.

 

Claudiav, where did this come from: "owner cares more about neighbors complaints than dog, if three weeks off the track he is to be medicated for nothing more than barking." There isn't anything in the OP's posts that indicate this. Yes, of course she cares about the neighbor's complaints - because she doesn't want the landlord or HOA to force her to get rid of him! Not because she cares more about the neighbors. When Carl was carrying on, you'd better bet I cared about his carrying on, I didn't want him to be reported and wreck all the good we were doing as we worked through it together.

 

Quinton1, you might also want to try taking an obedience class with him, too. Carl was not an out of control boy, but it was suggested that it might help, so we took a course together. It brought us closer together and was a good thing for both of us. We built confidence in each other.

Edited January 20, 2015 by seeh2o

[carronstar]

 

Exactly. Naysayers will be naysayers, it's their mindset, doesn't need to be yours, just move forward. Carl and I lived through this, too. I'm glad I gave him medication, we both learned together and he came off the medication and lived a happy loving life with me. If I'd taken advice like that he wouldn't have lived with me and that would have been terrible for both of us.

 

Claudiav, where did this come from: "owner cares more about neighbors complaints than dog, if three weeks off the track he is to be medicated for nothing more than barking." There isn't anything in the OP's posts that indicate this. Yes, of course she cares about the neighbor's complaints - because she doesn't want the landlord or HOA to force her to get rid of him! Not because she cares more about the neighbors. When Carl was carrying on, you'd better bet I cared about his carrying on, I didn't want him to be reported and wreck all the good we were doing as we worked through it together.

 

Quinton1, you might also want to try taking an obedience class with him, too. Carl was not an out of control boy, but it was suggested that it might help, so we took a course together. It brought us closer together and was a good thing for both of us. We built confidence in each other.

 

Ditto this.

 

A training class for bonding and a feeling of security was suggested for me and my SA girl. She could already do "sit" and "down" so we were able to take the training for therapy dogs. She turned out to be great at therapy work.

 

I also found a walker who came in at her meltdown point (hers was 4-5 hours) and walked her and worked with her to be sure she was calm and quiet before she left. It took us a little time but was so very worth it.

 

I can understand your being worried about your neighbors commenting. I know I was over-defensive when just one neighbor mentioned that my girl was crying when I left -- and he just wanted me to know in case I didn't already know.

 

As many have said, alone training is done in short intervals and takes a while. My neighbors got very used to seeing me sit in the hall or on the stairs for 5 minutes while we worked on my being able to leave.

 

This is all still very new to your pup. There is a good chance all will calm down in the near future.

 

I didn't see any suggestion of a baby/dog gate. I know Pam mentioned she has one. I do to because I am staying with my stepfather and he wanted my new girl to be limited to my room and bathroom area. That lasted about a week before I came home to find he was keeping the gate open. The next week he suggested that I just leave it open when I leave. Since it is not my home, I am leaving it up so I can gate her when someone comes to the front door, etc. Seeing you, or other rooms, could make a big difference to your pup. It seems like it might be worth a try.

 

I definitely applaud your willingness to explore any methodology that will make this work for you both. If scrips are what it takes to make your pup feel secure and calm, there is no reason not to try them.

 

Best of luck!

[krissn333]

One little thing that came to me immediately is that his crate is in the bedroom.

 

Any of my dogs that needed to be crated to begin with were crated in the living room. I tried bedroom crating with one (Fritz) and he would flip out. Crate in living room: fine.

 

Seems to have to do with them being able to see you leave through the door and come home through the door.

 

Not sure if you crate him at night too...out of all of the greys I've had here, only one needed to be crated at night too. Everyone else was able to sleep in my room with me on a dog bed without issue.

 

With the one who needed to be crated at night, I borrowed an additional crate so I had one in the living room for while I was at work, and one in my room for bedtime.

 

I also left the radio on while I was gone. Country seemed to be the most calming, not sure if there's a particular genre that's most commonly heard in racing kennels.

 

The DAP collar was a must have for us as well.

[Guest Quinton1]

We have made it another week although he has been with me for most of the time. I have started doggy day care once a week and he has spent the night with friends and there have been no issues with either. I am no longer leaving him in the crate when I leave as he was instantly barking when he was put there. He still sleeps in the crate and goes there without being forced and sleeps a full night. I recently started using a baby gate for the alone training. During the training he settles, but whines constantly. He is still on Prozac, but I have not noticed any difference in his personality.

 

I understand every dog is different and that everyone on the forum has their own opinions which they are entitled to. I appreciate all the suggestions and constructive criticism. I am still trying....

[macoduck]

Looking back over your posts it looks like you started the prozac on Jan 17th. It will take more time to have an effect. Hang in there.

[Hawthorn]

Also, Prozac doesn't suit everyone - anxiety and nervousness are actually listed as two of the possible side effects. I know he was anxious before he was on the Prozac, but it's possible the Prozac could actually make him worse, or at least not help. I was once prescribed it briefly for insomnia (didn't work at all!) and it made me feel very anxious and jittery.

[cleptogrey]

take him off drugs and return him. you should not put a perfectly healthy dog on Prozac simply b/c he barks or whines when you leave. He is missing you and that's normal. He should not be drugged for this.

agreed!

some dogs need a partner. can you talk to your neighbors- bring some cookies or chocolate and explain that your new greyhound has separation anxiety and that you are working on resolving stand that you are so sorry for the disruption. marrow bones with some of the marrow removed- fresh, not cooked, last longer than Kongs.Make sure the bones are at least 4" long so they don't get stuck on their jaw. Leave 4 or 5 bones, keep him busy. There are also some busy toys where kibble can be placed inside of them, these dogs love to eat, especially when they first get off the track. Harp music, tv or radio on can help. Many track kennels keep the radio on 24/7. be patient,be apologetic to your neighbors, that can help.

 

yes, exhausting him in doggie day care can help- your on the right track!

Edited January 26, 2015 by cleptogrey

[Guest LazyBlaze]

Another vote for Patricia McConnell's booklet I'll Be Home Soon. She gives a detailed step-by-step 6-8 week alone training programme. It's a lot of effort but it worked like clockwork for our foster whippet who vocalised constantly when left (she wasn't destructive at all so we never needed a crate). Like you we have neighbours on all sides so we needed to fix it. I think the trick is not trying to move too quickly, to allow the dog time to really learn and feel comfortable with each small step. Early stages are mainly desensitisation to leaving triggers rather than leaving at all, so you do need to have patience and commitment, which it already sounds as though you have. Gradually your boy will learn that you always come back.

 

Up the ante with the treats you use for the alone training too. Give him the most amazing treat, whatever it takes to get him excited about it, a Kong with steak or liver in it or whatever, and ensure that the ONLY time he ever gets this amazing thing is during the training. You pick it up as soon as you come back.

 

Very very gradually you build up the duration of absence. One useful thing our behaviourist told us was to increase the overall average duration, but to do this with a mix of shorter and longer absences (so e.g. bursts of 1 minute, 10 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute etc., then gradually pushing the mean of these upwards). EDITED TO ADD: don't try to increase the duration until the dog is relaxed with each early step. Any whining or signs of anxiety at any point then take it back to a stage where he is comfortable and stick at that for a bit again before attempting to move on again. It can be maddeningly frustrating, but you can't go quicker than the dog's pace, lest you undo your good work. Have faith that your dog will get it eventually.

 

Patricia McConnell covers pretty much all of this in her booklet. If you read it it will give you hope. Her programme works in the large majority of cases, you just need to stick to it (and the occasions where you can't stick to it, you need to make alternative arrangements: dogsitter, daycare etc.). But if you can manage it, it will be worth it. The first few weeks are the hardest, but are absolutely worth putting the effort into. It took about 4-5 weeks for us to be able to leave our girl for just 5-7 minutes or so (did I mention patience ?) but following that, it was only another 2 weeks until we could leave her an hour and a half. Another 2 weeks and it was 4 hours, absolutely no barking or crying at all. Now, more than a month later I would say she is reliable, and I don't worry about leaving her. I usually leave her with some item of clothing I have recently worn, and we also have an Adaptil/DAP diffuser plugged in (not sure if those are a UK thing). She has learned I always come back and is now relaxed when I go. It was very tough, but has been really rewarding. Patricia McConnell saved us!

 

I'm pulling for you all the way with this. Very best of luck, and do keep us posted.

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyBlaze