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A little background about my grey...

 

I've had him for over a year now. He's always been a bit skittish/nervous/shy, and he doesn't react well to strangers, men, other non-greyhounds... the list goes on. However, I love him, even if he is a weird little nugget. I've tried to help him come out of his shell, but mostly I just deal with his neuroses.

 

However, after about a month of having him, he started to get bolder about being aggressive, especially in regards to high priority treats like knuckle bones, kongs with peanut butter, and rawhides. If he was given one, and someone got too close to him while he was eating, he would growl. He snapped and snarled at me enough over some of those that finally I stopped giving them altogether. He'd even gotten to the point a few months ago that he would growl if people didn't leave him alone while he was eating. That was the last straw for me, so I started working to desensitize him to that. We started with hand feeding, and he would only get food that came out of my hand. Next we went back to the bowl, but I would stand next to him and pet him while he ate, I would reach into his food bowl and just move the kibble around with my fingers, and finally we'd gotten to a good place where I could mess with him and his food without reaction, so I backed off on being so diligent about it. Every once in a while I'd mess with him, or stand by him for a few seconds before peeling off to take care of some other task.

 

This week, though, he's gotten straight up aggressive. Before he would only ever growl, then he'd back off and we'd hand feed after making him wait a few minutes. But earlier this week I put down his food bowl, called him over to eat, and when I didn't give him his release command fast enough, he started that deep throaty growl. I reprimanded him, but then his lips curled back in a snarl and he started barking. I immediately jerked the food away and told him NO sharply and several times. He backed down, we did some basic obedience, hand fed, and then he came over to me to get loved on after he ate.

 

Same thing happened the next morning. I didn't move fast enough, he growled, I yelled, we did obedience and hand fed.

 

This morning, however, it escalated very quickly. Whereas before he'd back down when I got in his face enough, today he wasn't having it. I tried to get him to go into the next room, and he started to walk away from me. I reached for his collar, and he spun around and bit me. I yelled some more, he growled some more, until finally I got him to sit, lay down, etc. Then I walked away for a few minutes to calm down before I tried to hand feed him again.

 

What do I do??? I've had my grey for over a year, and despite my best efforts his behavior seems to be getting worse. We're in a greyhound obedience training class right now, and I can just tell from the other greys that mine is unusually timid and hard to read. But I don't know if this is my fault, or if I just ended up with an unusual personality in my grey. This is my first dog, and I thought I was prepared, but I just don't know what to do. My biggest fear is that a friend or family member is going to be taking care of him for me and get bitten, and have no idea why the dog lashed out.

 

I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, I just wanted to be sure I was as clear as possible. Does anyone have any advice???

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Not a problem I've ever had over all the years of dogs, but I don't bother with commands or anything, just put the food down for each in turn and let them scoff it in peace undisturbed. Guess he feels stressed and worried you are going to remove the food or something. Eating is one of the few daily joys for a dog and I'd just let him enjoy it for a while until he is less stressed over the food situation. Shouting, getting in his face and grabbing his collar are all threatening and I would think will only escalate the situation. I often put my hand in their bowls to add extra bits of treats so they know if I come near when they are eating, it is a good thing and means something tasty is being added.

Sue from England

 

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Whereas before he'd back down when I got in his face enough

 

 

I don't have time to write an extensive response, but I will quickly say that this is why he is escalating. Yelling and getting in his face is going to undo the desensitization work you have done and make him more tense. He will escalate as you escalate. It can be a (literally) vicious cycle. I think when he starts to show any discomfort, you need to back up and try to set him up for success.

 

When my boy first came here he was a bit anxious/tense if I approached him while he was eating. I never took his food away, but instead would approach nonchalantly and toss something in his dish. After doing this for awhile, he began to anticipate when I would approach. After a while I phased out putting things in his bowl every time and just did occasionally. Now I rarely add anything in there but he just doesn't care if I approach because he has never had any negative association or punishment, never had his bowl jerked away and trusts me. Meanwhile I have him sit or do small things for treats which he does very eagerly, but the interactions are always positive. I want him to associate me always with good things and not with bad things.

 

Fear is most often the root of aggression issues, and that's the thing that needs to be addressed IMO.

Edited by k9soul
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Guest Lygracilux

Though I have not had the pleasure of experiencing this with my grey :hehe

I completely agree with Ragsysmum.

 

All dogs have primitive instincts, it does not matter what breed. One of those instincts is to protect and eat their food. A lot of puppies that grow up are desensitized to this at a very early age, and this is enforced once they are in good homes as well. The ones that are neglected though, will forget this. Thats why you see a lot of rescue's that are food and space aggressive. Sometimes it doesn't even matter about how they grew up, one dog will never be food aggressive, and one dog will always be food aggressive. They're all different.

I feel like with retired racers, the space and food aggression can almost be enforced because in the kennels NO ONE touches their food once its put in front of them, NO ONE invades their personal bubble, etc.

Sometimes its just hardwired in their brain and you cant teach this out of them, only modify it.

 

Greys are such sensitive animals when it comes to their emotions. Like Ragysysmum said "Shouting, getting in his face and grabbing his collar are all threatening and I would think will only escalate the situation"

I believe that for a very long while, when he eats or gets treats you should put them down and walk away. Do not bother him. Let him get comfortable in his own space again, then use positive training for the food and treats. Don't yell at him, dont get upset if he growls, dont ever yank the food dish away from him anymore. Just feed and walk away.

 

Then once you see his tenseness is gone (if you can read his body language) start with just tossing some very yummy treats in/around his bowl from a comfortable distance for him while hes eating and just walking away. If he growls, you're too close. Eventually he will associate you being closer and closer while eating with treats and you'll be able to close in on shorter distances.

 

I'd love to hear others chime in.

Goodluck

Edited by Lygracilux
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I agree with k9soul. Using aggressive training with a timid dog just seems like a recipe for disaster.

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Michelle...forever missing her girls, Holly 5/22/99-9/13/10 and Bailey 8/1/93-7/11/05

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Jake has never had food aggression, but he will resource guard toys and bones. First of all, I know that it is very hard to be nice to your grey when he is growling and/or biting at you. You feel like a failure if you just let them get away with that behavior. I've had many dog owners to tell me to get in his face, spank him, etc. However, especially with sensitive greys, that will only make the problem worse in the long run and breed distrust between you. I'd second the advice to slowly throw treats into his bowl until he gets used to you. Good luck!

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Thanks for the input, all. I've tried so hard to find a balance between the positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. There are so many different schools of thought, and I can't figure out what he needs from me. The information available on the internet is so overwhelming, and everyone agrees that their method is best, and all methods are VASTLY different. Makes me very grateful for the resource of GreyTalk. I'm starting to feel really guilty now for doing the "alpha" thing, but that's what so many trainers and dog lovers have told me to do! Sorry for being so scattered, I'm just still really emotional about it. I feel horrible that I can't communicate to him that he's safe and loved with me. It's not like I hit and yell at him all the time, he gets walks and cuddles and playtime whenever he wants them, and he ALWAYS gets fed. I have never taken his food away unless he's growled (because this is what I was told to do by other dog people around me at the time/the internet).

 

The crazy thing is, I did do the nice and gentle thing, or so I thought. He'd eat out of my hand, he'd eat with me sitting next to him, and we'd gotten to a great point where he'd eat out of his bowl and I could put my hand in, and it didn't bother him at all. This seems to have come out of nowhere.

 

As far as the backing off when he growls, won't that just teach him that growling gets him what he wants? Me away from his bowl?

 

I can certainly try working on letting him eat in peace, throwing treats in his bowl, etc. I'm willing to try anything. I just don't want to reinforce his negative behavior with giving him what he wants, which is me backing away.

 

Burpdog, he's on medication for low thyroid. I had his T4 panel done because I thought maybe that's where these issues were coming from. He was low thyroid and has been on meds since February or so, but no behavior changes that I've noticed.

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Please don't feel guilty, we are always learning when it comes to dogs and there certainly are a lot of differing philosophies out there, but I just think that especially in this case pushing back at him is going to make things get worse because his reactions are from anxiety and thus correction will make it worse.

 

What I meant by take a step back is if he shows discomfort in a situation go to your previous step in desensitizing, like hand feeding or putting food in his dish by hand for him to eat, that he is more comfortable with. Backing off from a growl is not a bad thing though because the dog is giving a warning, and if you punish that warning he could just simply go on to the next step without warning which is a bite. He is communicating that he is uncomfortable and this is good information for you to have so that you can work on ways to make him more comfortable and trusting. What you want to do is keep him in his comfort zone to where he does not tense up and growl and to gradually and slowly increase that comfort zone by good associations. Have you ever read The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell? You might try that as it is really eye opening in helping to understand human versus dog communication/behavior and ways you can learn to read your dog better and communicate better with him.

 

I personally really agree with Lygracilux's suggestion of just feeding him for a time without any disturbance at all or expectations and let him sort of "reset" some mentally and then begin again with gradual treats and positive reinforcement, slowing down and maybe going back to an earlier step if you see him tense up.

 

I find life much easier and more pleasant now that I don't worry about dominance and alpha issues, which I used to do.

Edited by k9soul
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As far as the backing off when he growls, won't that just teach him that growling gets him what he wants? Me away from his bowl?

 

Yes. But that's the point of the growl. It is important to acknowledge that you heard him and that you understand. The alternative is your dog stops growling and instead goes straight to snapping. Personally, I'd rather have a warning. Growling itself isn't bad... it is simply a communication that indicates the dog is uncomfortable. You should heed that warning, back off and not yell or punish. You should find a good positive reinforcement trainer to help you with this at home. There is no debate about methods (well, at least there shouldn't be although you're right that there really is out there on the internet). Positive reinforcement is scientifically proven.

 

Since he starts growling before he even gets to his bowl you need to start earlier. What I mean is... go and get the food ready in the bowl. As you walk towards the spot where you feed him, hand him a couple pieces. Ask him to lay down in his spot and immediately give him a piece of kibble. Take a step away, come back right away and reward. Then put the food down and let him have it. As time progresses you walk further and further away before returning to reward, making him wait longer and longer for it.

 

If at any point he growls, I would back off. I'd put the food away in a cupboard somewhere and tell him in a neutral voice "oopsies". A few minutes later I'd go and get it out and start over from the beginning making sure to reward him SOONER (and therefore BEFORE he growls).

 

But ultimately you should hire a good, positive trainer to come into your house and observe this and give you instruction. If a trainer says anything about "alpha", "showing him who is boss", "punish", "correct"... I would kick them out. There is a positive way to do almost everything with a dog. And when you're talking aggression it's almost more important to do so.

Kristie and the Apex Agility Greyhounds: Kili (ATChC AgMCh Lakilanni Where Eagles Fly RN IP MSCDC MTRDC ExS Bronze ExJ Bronze ) and Kenna (Lakilanni Kiss The Sky RN MADC MJDC AGDC AGEx AGExJ). Waiting at the Bridge: Retired racer Summit (Bbf Dropout) May 5, 2005-Jan 30, 2019

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My take on this is that he's resource guarding and haven't there been a lot of posts about this in which it's said to respect the dog's need to guard and leave him alone? Some Greyhounds just come through like that. At the track, they are fed in their kennels, alone, with nobody to bother them or "threaten" them. Honestly, I don't see the need to do anything but respect the desire to have no one around when he eats.

 

It's similar to a Greyhound not wanting to be bothered when sleeping. Many do not like it and will respond with a warning growl. If that growl is not respected, the next thing may be a snap. How many have a rule in the house: Do not bother the Greyhound when he's sleeping or eating?

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Guest normaandburrell

 

 

I put down his food bowl, called him over to eat, and when I didn't give him his release command fast enough, he started that deep throaty growl.

 

I never use the release command with my greys, and I don't think most grey owners do. I just put the food down and walk away. Basically I agree with all the above comments. Greys tend to need mainly positive reinforcement, and the more timid the dog, the poorer its reaction to negative reinforcement will be. Don't feel guilty. You are only trying to do what's right for your grey, and you are on the right track coming to this group for advice.

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This certainly could be behavioral and you're getting great advice (as always). But I would suggest a vet visit as well--do a full thyroid panel and ask the vet about any possible sources of pain or discomfort he could be experiencing, either one can make a sweet dog snappish all of a sudden.

Beth and Petey (8 September 2018- ). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know.

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I do have a release command for my greys when eating. But that's because there are four of them. So they need to wait for me to put food down before lunging at it. Otherwise it is chaos. But once the food is down, it's theirs.

 

I don't think negative reinforcement works with these dogs. I've watched DH try it with ours and my way works best, including with growling, snapping and sleep startle. The only times my dogs hear the VOG are when they are in danger (Brandi trying to get the steak off the stove) or are playing too intensely with each other. They then get treats. Nothing physical, no in their face. They have all growled at me. Two have snapped with intent. One has connected with DH. All valid means of communication. None aggressive.

 

Go back to the beginning. Get the physical stuff sorted out. Think about what you can change. My skitty dog who is food aggressive at times (Brandi) is fed by herself in the laundry. No one else except me goes in there and I guard the door. I don't touch her food unless I need to add something to it. I don't go in there except to drop a different bowl off. When I do, I touch her butt or back lightly to let her know I'm there. She guards her bowl when I do it. But after three years there is no further reaction. All my dogs have been taught leave it and know about trading up - they never have food taken away from them, they voluntarily drop it when told to because they know I'll give them a treat.

 

I think people get very tangled up about being in charge. I prefer to think of myself as being in partnership with my dogs. Sometimes they get their way. Mostly I get mine, because my relationship with them is such that what want has become what they want, because positive reinforcement teaches them that doing what I want is rewarding. This builds confidence in them.

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Guest Greyt_dog_lover

When you say you had a T4 panel done, was it a full panel with the results read by Michigan State? Or was it a free T4 snap test? If it was just the snap test, those are useless for greyhounds. ALL greyhounds have low thyroid, its part of the breed. You have to have a full panel done by Michigan State or another college (i don't remember which) in the midwest. Although i have read somewhere that thyroid and aggression is a myth that has recently been debunked by new studies. I cant remember the source that I read it from, so don't quote me on that. Are you still in contact with your adoption group? Maybe someone in the group can offer support and help with your situation. I know most greyhound adoption groups try to keep support for their adopters.

 

Chad

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Guest karilynn

I have no advice to share with aggression, but I wanted to tell you that I empathize with being bit and how bad it feels. My greyhound bit me once and it was 100% my fault. He wouldn't listen to me when I was telling him to get off my bed and I tried to move him by guiding him with my hands, which of course freaked him out (and I knew better, I know he's jumpy with being touched) and he bit me, right in my forearm, and hard. I was surprisingly calm about it and I did not punish him at all, of course, because it was my fault. I managed to get him off of my bed and then I had a good cry because I felt so upset over the whole ordeal. I could tell he was upset over it too. I learned a valuable lesson, though. I know my hound very, very well and I know what he likes and what he doesn't like. I've given up trying to change him or mold him and I just allow him to be himself. I think that way we have a mutual respect for each other because I am respecting him and then in turn, he respects me. I can't say that this applies to resource aggression, I've never dealt with that. My hound has more of a fear (flight/fight) aggression. I don't bother him in his bed and when he is on MY things, I know the right way to 'move' him. I say "Bullet, go to your bed" in a stern tone, he knows I mean business!

 

I'm sure you'll get a lot of advice. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I've had my boy for 2 and a half years and for the first year or so, I tried really hard to change him. I finally realized that he is who he is, he isn't going to be anything else, and I love him despite his fear of shiny floors, his space aggression, and his neurotic tics.

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Guest Greyt_dog_lover

I also have a food/resource aggressive greyhound right now. He was adopted out and returned for biting his owner. The situation sounds very similar to yours except he was being starved when he bit his owner. I have had some steps forward, and some back. I have hand-fed and i pet him when he eats, but i generally dont push him too hard. When he has a bone or other high value treat, I trade-up with him. Or i have distracted him with a towel or other item that gets his attention away from the bone so I can take it away. He will growl and snarl and I know he would bite, but i do not let it escalate. He is a VERY insecure greyhound that needs his routine. Anything out of place and he gets nervous and anxious. What i have found with him is to build trust and a loving relationship. He regresses sometimes if something changes such as a new foster in the house or moving the furniture around the house. One day he tripped over a tree root in the yard that he never noticed before, it took him a week to get over the spot, every time he would go into the yard he would run over and bite the root and try to rip it out of the ground. He totally freaked out about the thing. I dont know if your boy is the same way, but my guy is a long term foster due to his issues and I have taken nearly a year to get to the point where i can approach and touch him when he is half way through his food. I cant bother him for the first half of the bowl, but it seems that when he realizes that he is more than half way through the food, its not so much something he needs to guard.

 

My boy is also one of the most affectionate greyhounds I have ever fostered. You can cuddle with him and move him when he is sleeping, you can mess with his paws, ears anything. He just wants love and affectionate touch from his humans. When it comes to new squeeky toys, bones, or his bowl of food, he isnt so trusting and loving anymore. No big deal, just something you have to understand and manage. When we give him a bone, he gets gated into our hallway alone and has an hour to take care of the bone. Typically he gets bored with it after 45 minutes. Brand new toys are the same, Although its easier to trade up with a toy when you have another toy, bones not so easy.

 

Just have patience and understanding, he sounds like a very insecure guy that needs patience and love, not a dominating person that escalates his anxiousness.

 

Chad

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Fear is most often the root of aggression issues, and that's the thing that needs to be addressed IMO.

Agreed, he is not trying to dominate you, he is trying not to starve.....go back to the beginning and be kind ;)

<p>"One day I hope to be the person my dog thinks I am"Sadi's Pet Pages Sadi's Greyhound Data PageMulder1/9/95-21/3/04 Scully1/9/95-16/2/05Sadi 7/4/99 - 23/6/13 CroftviewRGT

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Burpdog, he's on medication for low thyroid. I had his T4 panel done because I thought maybe that's where these issues were coming from. He was low thyroid and has been on meds since February or so, but no behavior changes that I've noticed

Full panel or just a free T4?

 

I don't think that is his only problem. He sounds confused and so do you.

 

Dr. Sophia Yin: I have not read her work but it comes highly recommended and some of things you are having problems with she addresses. I am very sad that recently she committed suicide :(

 

http://drsophiayin.com/

 

Sophia learned that every pet needs a human who can lead. Not like a boss, but like a partner in a dance—someone who gives clear signals, rewards desirable behavior as it occurs, removes rewards for inappropriate behavior immediately, and sticks to the plan consistently until the new, good behavior is a habit.

She found that because pets don’t understand spoken language, they rely on body language plus desired or undesired consequences in order to learn. This means that humans must be aware of their movement and actions because every move they make while interacting with the pet influences the animal’s behavior and perception of them.

Sophia’s dedication to helping people communicate with pets in a positive, scientifically sound way has led her to create a variety of exceptional books and products for pet owners and pet-care professionals who also aspire to bond with their pets on a whole new level.

I think pets can and do learn words but even so rely on our body language and the way we say things more so than what we say (for instance -- say we are going to take a bath in your happiest voice and they get happy)

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Guest missecho

The Cesar Milan school of dog training with the "show who is boss" is antithetical to greyhounds. They really respond poorly to negative reinforcement--it exacerbates problems rather than solves them. I agree with the other posters above that your escalating the negativity is causing your dog to respond in kind. Rather than the strict authoritarianism of a "release" command, you might want to try to get your dog not to be making such a big deal out of meals.

 

We just have the daily kibble portion put out, half in the morning and half in the evening, and our grey gets some yummy chicken treats placed on top of it at breakfast and at dinner. She scoops up the chicken pieces right away, then "grazes" on her kibble throughout the day. I believe she strongly associates us with the provision of wonderful chicken treats and we have a lot of fun with meals, and of course "midnight treat" time right before bed. BTW she has not gained any weight in 6 years on this regimen. It is very casual, friendly, with no one out trying to prove anything.

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Most people are conditioned to view a growl from dog as threatening and domineering, mostly because of outdated research and training methods. Once you discard this notion and remember that a growl is *just* a means of communication for your dog, it becomes easier to see a growl in a more neutral light. He's trying to tell you something, and you're not listening.

 

Your dog is already anxious/fearful of many, many things, and probably not overly confident. Dogs like this respond badly to negative reinforcement training, often by escalating past the warning growl and going right for the snap/bite.

 

We can give you *some* advice here, but you really need a certified animal behaviorist to come to your house and observe what is happening first hand. As Alicia said above, if they mention anything about "alpha," "dominating your dog," "proving who's boss," or anything along those lines, thank them kindly and find another one.

 

https://iaabc.org/ International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants

 

I would also say that if he's been on thyroid supplementation since January and you have seen no change in his behavior, then an abnormal thyroid is not the problem. I would, however, explore anti-anxiety medication with your vet and/or the Behaviorist.

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When a dog growls at me, I respect that. Yes, I try to work around the issue, but if I keep doing what I've been doing, then I'm going to get bitten. I actually usually thank the dog for growling because they're letting me know they're uncomfortable without biting me. I'm a dog walker and while I rarely get growled at, it happens. Every dog has different thresholds and we need to respect that. Generally if a dog growls it's either scared or in pain. You have to desensitize if they're scared and if it's pain you need to solve the pain issue.

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Also, this video is helpful for understanding dog training....

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OIjMBfhyNDE

 

(Sorry, on my iPad and can't embedd.)

Kristie and the Apex Agility Greyhounds: Kili (ATChC AgMCh Lakilanni Where Eagles Fly RN IP MSCDC MTRDC ExS Bronze ExJ Bronze ) and Kenna (Lakilanni Kiss The Sky RN MADC MJDC AGDC AGEx AGExJ). Waiting at the Bridge: Retired racer Summit (Bbf Dropout) May 5, 2005-Jan 30, 2019

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Guest MnMDogs

When a dog growls at me, I respect that. Yes, I try to work around the issue, but if I keep doing what I've been doing, then I'm going to get bitten. I actually usually thank the dog for growling because they're letting me know they're uncomfortable without biting me. I'm a dog walker and while I rarely get growled at, it happens. Every dog has different thresholds and we need to respect that. Generally if a dog growls it's either scared or in pain. You have to desensitize if they're scared and if it's pain you need to solve the pain issue.

I think this is really important to try to understand. My first greyhound was a growler... I got her 12 years ago, my first dog, and it really scared me! But I had to remember it was really the only way she could communicate with me, and she was all bark and no bite so to speak.

 

Mork never once growled in the 9 plus years I had him, he just bit... Not me, but the other dogs. That growl is something you don't want to go away, it gives you a warning and a chance to try to fix what's causing the growl. Macy also doesn't growl, when she's frightened she just snaps... Not at people but other dogs. Growls are your hound's way of trying to tell you something.

 

I'm not a trainer, so I can't give anymore advice, but I wish you luck with your boy.

...

 

Your dog is already anxious/fearful of many, many things, and probably not overly confident. Dogs like this respond badly to negative reinforcement training, often by escalating past the warning growl and going right for the snap/bite.

 

We can give you *some* advice here, but you really need a certified animal behaviorist to come to your house and observe what is happening first hand. As Alicia said above, if they mention anything about "alpha," "dominating your dog," "proving who's boss," or anything along those lines, thank them kindly and find another one.

 

...

I feel this should be reinforced also. Edited by MnMDogs
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