Returned Newly Adopted Greyhound For Bite, Need Advice

[robinw]

I'm sorry this happened to you. It must've been very scary and shocking.

 

I think this is not uncommon, especially during the first few months that a dog joins a new home. Especially for a greyhound, who has spent much of his life in a crate without having to worry about people getting close when he is trying to sleep. It's happened to me, without the bite. It can take a while for a dog, or any kind of pet, to adjust to new surroundings and a new way of life.

 

I think you have to decide if you can trust him again and not be afraid and show that you are afraid. It also might be a good idea to read everything you can about adopting a greyhound.

 

Good luck

[RaineysMom]

Our Larry has bed/space aggression that didn't come out until about 2 months after we had him. One night my husband went to say good night to him on his bed (in our room) -- just a pat on the head, not getting down on the ground, etc. and Larry gave a damn good warning growl and snap. We've learned what his triggers are and while it pains me not to be able to snuggle on the floor with him like our other 3, it's just how it is.

 

and I DO know how it is to get bit -- my first GH Rainey bit my entire earlobe off, so saying a bite is just a bite doesn't quite rank with me. Thank God she got my ear and not a few inches to the right and it would have been my eye or my nose that would be gone

 

good luck and I'm sure you'll come to the right decision. If you think you can work with him, or at least like with Larry LIVE with it, it's worth it.

[silverfish]

Lester needs a benevolent pack LEADER. It doesn't help him to tell him he was a good dog after he bit you. I admire your desire and kindness but imo that is part of the problem. Any intelligent dog is going to be inclined to have problems in such an environment. IMO he should have been immediately corrected after the bite. It doesn't take much with greyhounds a lot of the time-for some a sharp no! is sufficient others need more but all dogs NEED to know they have a pack leader they can trust. If you are willing to be open minded and learn how to be their pack leader then you and he could probably have a wonderful happy life together. If you bring him back into the same environment that tells him he is good when he does wrong, then things will become even worse. www.leerburg.com has a god dvd on how to be a good pack leader for your dog. There are also some good articles on the site. Obviously I am not saying a dog should be punished for things he can't help or emotional problems he might have. But even so he shouldn't be praised if he does wrong. You know most people have issues or things. Maybe Lester is just sensitive to space. So what? Is he not allowed to have an issue when even people can? So just give him his space and everything is ok. It is not worth losing the love of a great and special relationship over. That works fine. I cannot tell you the relationship Minny and I had and he even had to wear a muzzle pretty much 24/7. But oh how we loved each other. Nobody, dog or human,is perfect in every way. You have the most important thing you need though to work through this- you have love. As long as you continue to operate in love everything will work out. Good luck! Let us know how everybody does-hope your husband makes a speedy recovery. JMO.

 

Dogs need to know their place for sure and boundaries need to be set in a benevolent, understanding and gentle way. But I do disagree with correcting this one, because if this is genuine sleep startle or a fear reaction, correction will NOT help, and will simply confuse the dog. The last thing you want to do with a new and uncertain dog is to give him the idea that his humans are crazy and unpredictable.

 

The OP was gentle and reassuring with a dog that she could see was scared and distressed by what had happened. IMHO, this is absolutely the way to go in this situation. It's what I would have done.

 

As to the Leerburg site, I can only give you my personal and heartfelt opinion. I do not trust a dog training site that sells aggressive 'training aids' like the 'dominant dog collar' and a wide range of electric shock collars. This tells me that the training methods you will find there are old-fashioned, out-dated, and disproved by all modern behavioural science and I would emphatically not recommend them. The very fact that the 'leadership' video has a picture of a child crouching over a dog and hugging it round the neck while leaning on its head tells me more than enough - it is something no child should be encouraged to do. These methods may get you many things but they will not get you a happy, well-adjusted family pet.

[JJNg]

Space aggression and defensive behavior has nothing to do with dominance or needing leadership. It's about mutual trust and respect. I agree with silverfish about the Leerburg site.

[Batmom]

Agree about the leader stuff and Leerburg site -- good way to make a dog worse, not better. Ai yi yi yi yi.

 

 

 

lestersmom, I would encourage you and your DH to talk about the situation and then, if appropriate, to talk with your adoption group. Could be that trying again with the same dog makes sense; could be that a different dog would be better, or even that you want to hold off bringing a dog home and spend some time volunteering around the dogs instead.

 

My rule here for new dogs -- and for some dogs, forever -- is to leave lying-down dogs alone, regardless of whether they're awake or asleep. If I want to scratch some ears, etc., I'll call the dog up onto his/her feet and then make sure I'm not leaning over the dog's head or otherwise making the dog feel trapped. To some extent, that's an individual dog thing -- some dogs have a lot of tolerance for being loved up while they're lying down, and some don't. Most do get more tolerant as they get to know you, but some still aren't what you'd consider cuddle bugs.

 

I'm glad your DH didn't need stitches and hope that all goes well for you in future.

[JenniferS]

I'm not sure the adoption group would let you have him back, but that is another issue.

 

When I first got Quiet Man, he was my first greyhound, I knew nothing about them. Not long after we brought him home, he snapped at me pretty good while I was brushing him. I was afraid of him, and thinking maybe he was not the dog for me. I found Greytalk - all those years ago , got support, hired a behaviorist, had a full vet visit (where I found through an x-ray he had a bb gun pellet in his muscle right where I was brushing him), read the Nothing in Life is Free article and started implementing it. While he was never "cured" of his aggression, we learned to live with it, manage it, and he got better & better as our 7 amazing years together went on. I had to accept the fact that Quiet Man was not a "cuddly dog", he did not want hugs and kisses or to lay on my lap, or for me to lay on his bed. I had to tell others not to lean over him, hug him, etc. I had to supervise him around kids. But the bottom line is, I made it work, he got better, I accepted him for who he was, and he became the love of my life.

[Guest greyhound_in_LA]

I look at this incident this way: it wasn't personal. Some dogs just do NOT want any person or dog encroaching on bed space or when they're lying down. Some dogs also hate people hovering over them or leaning over their heads too far.

 

I think if you can get past your hurt and that this is just this greyhound's personal space requirement, you could try to get Lester back.

[dostacos]

I look at this incident this way: it wasn't personal. Some dogs just do NOT want any person or dog encroaching on bed space or when they're lying down. Some dogs also hate people hovering over them or leaning over their heads too far.

 

I think if you can get past your hurt and that this is just this greyhound's personal space requirement, you could try to get Lester back.

oh I LOVE your sig picture. Funny Betty never even showed us COE, but then again I do think she is a greyhound Yenta. My Conrad is changing almost daily, all for the better. He still grabs the stuffy or tennis ball play bows romps a bit, takes it under the GREYHOUND TREE {where he and our beloved Queen dig holes and lay in the shade.

 

How is Coe doing with cats?

 

and back to the subject at hand, One of the first things I read about greyhounds retired racers, is it not good to startle them awake. Because they have lived in kennels, it is difficult to surprise them awake, so in the quiet environment startling them can freak them out. Unless it was a total measured attack I would, ignore it, just like our CATS that scratch and bite all the time...

Edited August 8, 2014 by dostacos

[a_daerr]

I look at this incident this way: it wasn't personal.

 

This is a really excellent point. Since losing his leg, Henry is much more sensitive about his feet (which sucks, because I have to dremmel his nails often to prevent balance problems). I consider myself pretty greyhound savvy when it comes to appropriate handling and recognizing body language. But recently, he snapped and lunged at me during a dremmel session- multiple snaps in the direction of my face. Now, we're talking about my heart dog- a dog I've owned for over four years, a certified therapy dog, who has endured just about every type of situation with me. But something about this instance was different. Whether I missed his signals, he finally reached his limit, or he just had some type of knee-jerk pain/startle response, he came very close to biting me. Then immediately afterwards, it was like nothing even happened. He laid down and put his head on my lap!

 

My point is, it's devastating when a dog snaps or bites, but chances are, the dog has already forgotten about it and moved on. It's really not personal. Growling and snapping are the only ways dogs have to tell us, "Enough! You're making me uncomfortable!" It happens with even the best dogs.

[silverfish]

- multiple snaps in the direction of my face. Now, we're talking about my heart dog- a dog I've owned for over four years, a certified therapy dog, who has endured just about every type of situation with me. But something about this instance was different. Whether I missed his signals, he finally reached his limit, or he just had some type of knee-jerk pain/startle response, he came very close to biting me. Then immediately afterwards, it was like nothing even happened. He laid down and put his head on my lap!

 

My point is, it's devastating when a dog snaps or bites, but chances are, the dog has already forgotten about it and moved on. It's really not personal. Growling and snapping are the only ways dogs have to tell us, "Enough! You're making me uncomfortable!" It happens with even the best dogs.

And it's also worth remembering that these ARE communication snaps - what we might call 'air-snaps'. If these dogs had meant to do damage, damage would have been done. What often happens, though, is that the person moves fractionally and gets hit with the teeth. This is not a bite, as such, but because we humans are fragile, the effects are similar. Bottom line is that if all you have is grazing and bruising with perhaps a nick or two, this was not a bite. At least, not in the dog's mind.

 

Air snaps can be playful, happy things too. I have a couple of wonderful-but-scary photos of my lovely old Renie air-snapping at me playfully while I was rubbing her belly. She looks like something out of 'Alien' but if you look more closely you can see that her eyes and the corners of her mouth are soft. If, however, I'd moved a little toward her while she was doing it, I could well have ended up injured.

[MerlinsMum]

 

Dogs need to know their place for sure and boundaries need to be set in a benevolent, understanding and gentle way. But I do disagree with correcting this one, because if this is genuine sleep startle or a fear reaction, correction will NOT help, and will simply confuse the dog. The last thing you want to do with a new and uncertain dog is to give him the idea that his humans are crazy and unpredictable.

 

The OP was gentle and reassuring with a dog that she could see was scared and distressed by what had happened. IMHO, this is absolutely the way to go in this situation. It's what I would have done.

 

As to the Leerburg site, I can only give you my personal and heartfelt opinion. I do not trust a dog training site that sells aggressive 'training aids' like the 'dominant dog collar' and a wide range of electric shock collars. This tells me that the training methods you will find there are old-fashioned, out-dated, and disproved by all modern behavioural science and I would emphatically not recommend them. The very fact that the 'leadership' video has a picture of a child crouching over a dog and hugging it round the neck while leaning on its head tells me more than enough - it is something no child should be encouraged to do. These methods may get you many things but they will not get you a happy, well-adjusted family pet.

 

^^^THIS. A thousand times this. "Correcting" Lester - a misguided term in the first place, imo - would have confused the heck out of him. I think you did the right thing.

 

It depresses me that there are still websites that recommend electric shock collars and antiquated training methods that do more harm than good.

 

To the OP: it's been a few days, I'm not sure if you've come to a decision, but good luck to you and your husband. You both sound like the kind of people who will give a dog the benefit of the doubt and who are willing to learn and work towards a harmonious relationship with a dog. I'm not sure if the adoption group would let you take Lester back, but considering that he now has a bite history his chances of finding a home have grown considerably thinner. Which does NOT mean that you need to feel bad or guilty and bring him home again if you're uncertain or think that you can't get over what happened. As someone said above, it wouldn't be fair to Lester or to you. However, you seem like a great potential home for a dog who may need guardians willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and understand things from his point of view. Whatever you decide, I hope it's the right decision for everyone involved and if you feel inclined to do so, I'm sure many of us here would love to know how things turned out.

[Charlies_Dad]

You have received some good advice here. I hope that the past few days have aloud the emotions to subside a bit. It truly sounds like Lester is a great pup and this bite was the way he communicated that he did not like what your husband was doing at the time. I know it's hard especially for guys to feel close to a pup after this as one thinks is why did I just get bit and sometimes how dare he bite me...a little bit of hurt pride is all it is in the end. I think you should contact the group again and discuss Lester with them as it sounds like you really love him.

 

Please let us know how you get on.

[Guest DeniseL]

You have gotten some great advice and I really don't have much to add....only empathy. My Miami bit me in the arm and in the face. The arm a few weeks after he came home and the face 6 months after. Both times he was EXTREMELY stressed out and still did not trust me 100%. The face bite was bad, I had half my face and eye swollen and black and blue for over a week.

 

Now he is my baby boy...I love him to death and I am so glad we stuck with it. But, it was scary and we seriously considered returning him.

 

2 weeks is no time at all for a greyhound to settle. Stress is very high in the beginning and trust has not been formed. And, yes, sleep and space aggression is a huge factor. Miami loves to snuggle and sleep on me, but I can't have it. I have learned to not set up either of us to fail.

 

I hope it works out for you and Lester, either together or apart.....

[jetcitywoman]

And it's also worth remembering that these ARE communication snaps - what we might call 'air-snaps'. If these dogs had meant to do damage, damage would have been done. What often happens, though, is that the person moves fractionally and gets hit with the teeth. This is not a bite, as such, but because we humans are fragile, the effects are similar. Bottom line is that if all you have is grazing and bruising with perhaps a nick or two, this was not a bite. At least, not in the dog's mind.

 

Air snaps can be playful, happy things too. I have a couple of wonderful-but-scary photos of my lovely old Renie air-snapping at me playfully while I was rubbing her belly. She looks like something out of 'Alien' but if you look more closely you can see that her eyes and the corners of her mouth are soft. If, however, I'd moved a little toward her while she was doing it, I could well have ended up injured.

 

I can commisserate with the OP, Capri snapped at both DH and myself when she was new with us. We'd been taught to "let sleeping dogs lie" but we got careless and both had to learn the lesson the hard way. It is scary and hurtful and can feel like a betrayal of trust. But when it happened to me, I didn't take it too personally, and I was also embarrassed that I'd commited such a huge faux pas that she had to correct me like that. Once my shock and hurt dissipated, I was also extremely impressed - she pulled her punch on me. She banged the front of her teeth against my forehead. If she wanted to, she could have ripped into my face. At that point, I knew that I had a fantastic, mature and intelligent dog. She knew how to handle herself and also how to use JUST enough force to get the point across and no more.

 

Speaking of air snaps, Ajax does this funny thing where he snaps and looks somewhat vicious. I think he does it when he's bored, sick of laying around, hungry, wants to either go for his STEENKING WALK ALL REDDY or EET DINNR ALL REDDY! He squirms into a twisted cockroach position and snaps hard like an alligator. I tease him and call him a snappy turtle. It's very different from his normal attitude, which is a total teddy bear.