How To Deal With Small Dog Prey Drive?

[Guest Newbie]

Hi,

 

We are currently on day 3 of a weeklong "sleepover" trial period with our first grey. He came straight from the kennel, so we wanted to be able to see what his behavior is like in a home before we decide he is the one. We LOVE HIM. He has been so sweet and well behaved. We are already so attached.

 

My question is related to prey drive outside the home. In our apartment, he has so far coexisted pretty well with our housecat. We mostly keep them separated or have him in a muzzle, closely supervised, when they are allowed to be in the same room. When she's around, he is curious, but mostly just wants to sniff her butt and go back to sleep. It is easy to break his gaze when he stares and we are hopeful they can live together peacefully (but it will take months for me to feel comfortable).

 

When we take him outside, he is like a different dog. We walked past a sleeping cat tonight and I had to forecfully push him away as he got way too excited. Then a few minutes later, a very, very small fluffy yappy dog on a leash started barking like crazy about a half block away. He immediately froze and then started tugging and jerking HARD on his leash to get over to it. All I could think was "oh god, I hope this harness is on tight enough because if he gets out, that dog is dead." I was genuinely very rattled. I dragged him away as quickly as I could, but he was definitely on high voltage after that.

 

I guess I should be encouraged that he allowed me to drag him off and was able to calm down in a few minutes, but I'm really nervous now. We live in an urban area and our plan was to let him run in the dog park (with a big dog area) since we don't have a yard. He'll be encountering other types of dogs and some cats daily on walks. He seems fine with big dogs that he's met in our building and on walks, but the cat and the little dog were completely different. I'm so scared that we'll turn a corner and be face-to-face with a dog he wants to kill, or that he'll be able to overpower me if he gets too excited on a walk (he's 70+ lbs).

 

My questions for you are: Is this something that can be managed with training? What should I be doing to minimize it? He is obviously completely untrained since he is fresh off the track, so I am at square one with commands. What needs to be our training priority to get him safe for walks?

 

Thank you!

[Sambuca]

It can definitely be improved with training, but he may never be trusted to interact with little dogs outside. I found with my guy, Sailor, that if he got a sniff of the small dog, he'd realize it was a dog and he was fine to interact with them, but he was never as reactive as yours sounds.

[a_daerr]

our plan was to let him run in the dog park (with a big dog area) since we don't have a yard.

 

If you are 100% on using the dog park, I wouldn't move forward with this particular dog. I know that's probably not the answer you want to hear.

 

It is a very tricky thing to use a dog park if your dog has any amount of prey drive with other dogs. One of my best friends has a greyhound who cannot be trusted with small dogs, including puppies. As a result, he can't go to all-breed dog events, obedience classes, pet stores, or dog parks. They've learned to live with it (which is okay because he's practically perfect in every other way). The few times we have tried to take him to the dog park, she's been on edge the entire time. Some idiot always comes along and lets their small fluffy in the large dog side, saying, "Don't worry! He likes big dogs better!" The only way you'd be able to make it work is if you stand by the entrance and evaluate every dog that comes in, which is nerve-racking for everyone.

 

Prey drive can be managed, but IMHO, it's almost impossible to completely "train out." It's also a sliding scale of possibilities. Some are okay with small dogs, but not cats (or vice versa). Some dogs are fine with small animals in their home environment, but not with those on the outside. Some are interested in chasing, but not actually hurting the animal. And some will kill anything that moves and can never be trusted with small animals of any kind. There are no hard and fast rules. It's possible that this dog's prey drive will get better with time, but there are no guarantees.

Edited July 13, 2014 by a_daerr

[3greytjoys]

It's fine to use a martingale collar plus a harness until he gets used to city life. (I find that safer for new hounds/fosters who arrive right off the track.) There are different types of harnesses. Here's an example of one designed to reduce a dog's pulling: http://www.softouchconcepts.com/index.php/product-53/sense-ation-harness

 

Many Greyhounds are super excited upon arrival because life in their new adoptive homes is so different from what they've experienced at the racing track or breeding farm. It's common for most hounds to calm down over time as the newness wears off. Some remain high prey, but those hounds usually aren't considered indoor cat-friendly. When Greyhounds are considered cat-friendly or cat-workable, they can usually eventually learn to view "indoor only" cats as family members. Outside is different. Small animals outside are often viewed as prey, especially when the small animal is in motion. Naturally, that triggers excitement for a dog.

 

Dog parks can be risky for any dog breed, more so for a retired racer or any of the sighthound or hunting breeds. Not sure where you're located, but if there's an adoption group in your town, they might offer "Greyhound only" play dates. If not, nearby Greyhound owners might have formed a play group or walking group. Some people find other public fenced areas, or they schedule dog park visits for very early morning before any other dogs arrive.

 

Leash and Walking Safety Tips:
It helps to place your hand through the leash handle, and wrap it around a couple of times, then hold the excess leash with both hands while walking with the dog's shoulder next to your thigh (usually on human's left side). This "heeling" position maximizes human's safe balance and control. The leash should be held short enough to control the dog in that position but slightly loose, meaning, ideally the dog should not feel "constant" leash tension/pressure. (I know, not easy when dealing with new pullers.) Heeling can be practiced during walks including left/right turns, a figure 8, U-turns are especially helpful when you want to avoid a small animal.

 

Attach a pouch of treats to a belt loop for walks, make your happy self more exciting than other outside stimuli, keep the dog moving and distracted (either looking at you, or at least away from the small cat/dog). If needed pick up your pace to a jog either arcing away, right/left or U-turn away from the small animal.

 

Naturally "capturing" a dog's good behaviors, and adding a word to that behavior works great with the sensitive Greyhound breed. Example: Practice teaching "look" or "watch me". When he looks at your face, say the new command word and immediately reward him with a yummy treat and happy praise. Immediate timing is important so the dog understands the connection. Home practice should be brief, under a couple of minutes. Greys lose interest fast, in which case stop training for that session, or day. Keep training happy and fun. If possible, practice "look" or "watch me" and brief "heeling" exercises in your calm home environment first. As you've already noticed, it's much easier to work with dogs when they are under their threshold vs. over threshold. The "high voltage" situations increase their excitement so much that it makes it harder for them to settle and become receptive again.

 

Teach "leave it" for the cats and anything else off limits to him.

 

If you feel like this hound needs to wear a Greyhound turnout muzzle during outside walks for now, that's fine too. (Small dog owners might allow you more space.) Please let us know how things progress. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[scullysmum]

 

Prey drive can be managed, but IMHO, it's almost impossible to completely "train out." It's also a sliding scale of possibilities. Some are okay with small dogs, but not cats (or vice versa). Some dogs are fine with small animals in their home environment, but not with those on the outside. Some are interested in chasing, but not actually hurting the animal. And some will kill anything that moves and can never be trusted with small animals of any kind. There are no hard and fast rules. It's possible that this dog's prey drive will get better with time, but there are no guarantees.

 

I could not have put it better myself, often the only way you learn is the hard way, which is not fair on anyone so this dog may not be the one for you

[3greytjoys]

No need to answer the following questions here, but please consider them:

Did this hound come through an adoption group, or did he truly walk from a racing track kennel directly to you?

Do you know if he was he cat and small dog tested outside before you got him (hopefully more than once)?

(Testing is never a 100% guarantee for any animal but does help as a baseline.)

 

If you got this boy through a Greyhound adoption group, please call them to ask one of their Greyhound experts to come over to evaluate his behavior in your own home and your outside neighborhood environment.

 

His "indoor" behavior responses you mentioned are are good, but it's important to keep up extra careful management for your cat's safety. Watch the hound closely after returning from his walks to see if his cat interest escalates inside your home.

His outdoor high voltage neurotransmitters can take a long while to subside, and each exciting prey encounter can build upon those levels in a dog's brain. Be aware that a cat can be harmed by a large muzzled dog, even if the hound play pounces with his legs.

 

Your local adoption group should be happy to help evaluate his behavior. BTW, I agree with all others' posts above. Although, I'm only reading about this hound vs. seeing his behavior in person. IMO, this dog should not be allowed in any occupied all breed dog parks. As others mentioned, even if there is a large dog side, other breed owners don't fully understand and abide by those rules. They aren't thinking in terms of other hunting breeds, nor about different breed play styles. As mentioned, the safest play dates are "all Greyhound" play dates where ALL Greyhounds are muzzled to ensure group play safety. Greyhounds have thin skin that rips easily. (It's not safe to muzzle only one dog without muzzling all dogs.) Thanks for asking your original excellent questions. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Guest sireltonsmom]

2 cents. None of my greyhounds really cared about running after they retired. I was sure they'd need to run - after all, that was their life! The good news is they truly retire! You are being cautious and reaching out to seasoned grey owners. That's very responsible of you. You'll be a good grey mom for whichever grey you end up with. Good luck.

[a_daerr]

3greytjoys, OP did say in another post that the dog was coming straight off the track.

[Guest Newbie]

Thank you, everyone. I truly appreciate your heartfelt advice. We had an eventful 24 hours and I am cautiously optimistic about the prey drive. I completely respect that prey drive is instinct and we are continuing to evaluate whether this dog is right for us, but we've had some little wins that have made me feel a little more confident.

 

Last night I took him for his pre-bed walk and came across some women with a tiny dog off leash. The dog jumped off a lap and came bounding over to us, while the owner sat and watched (WHY?!). I pulled back on the harness and braced for the worst. My boy, on the other hand, just sniffed the furball and wagged his tail, then we went about our walk. WHEW!

 

Then this morning (Sunday), we decided to take him to the dog park at 7am, thinking it would be quiet. The small dog park was busy but the big dog park was completely, blissfully empty. We took him off leash (muzzled, just in case) and he just kind of wandered around sniffing, taking it all in. He is still having a bit of culture shock and isn't interested in playing or running just yet. Mostly just wagging his tail, sniffing, and marking

 

Well, apparently there was some sort of disagreement among the humans in the small dog park and most of them decided to bring their little ones to the big dog park (AGAIN, WHY?!). All of a sudden we were flooded with tiny dogs - probably 15 of them. It was chaos, with dogs pouring in, running outside the pen off-leash, barking, etc. These dogs were part of a group that meets every morning, so the owners were all overly confident with their dogs' behavior (and the everyone else's, I guess). Some of these dogs were tiny, including a white fuzzy thing that couldn't have weighed 3 lbs soaking wet.

 

Again, we braced for the worst. We were near the entrance and couldn't get away fast enough, so we were in the midst of these dogs in no time. As I freak out, what does my guy do? Wag his tail and sniff butts. That's it. He sniffed every dog's butt (at least twice) then continued with his wandering, wagging, sniffing, and peeing. WHEW!

 

I do think that some of his over-reaction yesterday may have been due to his adjustment and circumstance (walking very near a strange cat, the sudden, crazy barking of that tiny dog). It seems like in more controlled situations he is very calm and level-headed.

 

With our cat, he hasn't focused his gaze on her in probably two days. He knows he's not supposed to look at her, and goes to great lengths to turn away from her when she walks by, quickly making eye contact with me. He generally seems pretty bored with her, mostly just VERY interested in her food (thankfully not her litter box). He hasn't followed her since the first day he came home and we told him not to. Believe me when I say that I am not comfortable at all with him and the cat yet. They are separated by an extra-tall baby gate or his crate most of the time, except a few hours a day when they can be closely supervised and he is muzzled. The generally choose to sleep about 4 feet from each other, which is super cute even though it puts me on edge. I do feel some genuine progress here. His behavior indicates to me that he knows the cat is not to be messed with.

 

So, a few wins today! Of course, we also had some losses. I have spent the last three days of my life working on alone training, following the advice in the books and on this forum to a tee: leaving lots of times for increasingly long intervals, making no big deal about coming or going, frozen kongs, etc. It was going perfectly and today we were gone for over an hour and a half and he slept almost the whole time aside from a couple of small whimpers here and there (we were watching him on our phones). We came back home for a couple of hours and he completely tolerated our extremely loud and rambunctious 2-year old niece after an unexpected drop in (one more time: WHY?!), then we left again. Within minutes he was howling like a wolf. We watched the video in agony for more than 30 minutes, then decided we had to end it before our neighbors called the police. SIGH. I was so optimistic that our first full days back at work this week would go well. Now I'm dreading it.

 

Anyway, thanks again to everyone. Your advice is so appreciated. It melts my heart when I open my boy's crate in the morning and he chatters with excitement or when he slams his head into my chest for a "hug." We love him and are hoping we can continue to have him in our family.

[a_daerr]

We took him off leash (muzzled, just in case) and he just kind of wandered around sniffing, taking it all in.

 

Glad you are making progress! I just want to point out that it's never a good idea to leave one dog muzzled in a pack of other unmuzzled dogs (the same goes with leashes). It creates a dynamic where the other dogs can gang up and target the "disadvantaged" one. It also leaves your dog defenseless should he need to protect himself. If you're doing dog parks, it's gotta be all or nothing.

[jetcitywoman]

Keep in mind the concept of triggers. I don't want you to get overconfident because he's good over a few encounters and then feel crushed or betrayed because suddenly the worst happens. It's very likely that none of the littles in the park yesterday did the right thing to trigger his prey drive. What are triggers?

 

* sudden fast movement, especially glimpsed out of the corner of the eye

* squeaky type noises

* tension and fear on the part of the potential prey animal

 

If you've ever played with a kitten, all of those are demonstrated. Cats are fun to play with because their play is entirely based on prey drive and they easily respond to triggers. I've told the story before about how I lost my heart to my Capri on the day she stalked and chased me in the yard. It wasn't just that, but the hungry predator look in her eyes just before I turned and pretended to bolt in fear. I'd seen that look in every cat I've ever owned.

 

Part of the greyhound wonderful ness is that: they still have that little bit of jungle in them.

[GeorgeofNE]

There is NO WAY this dog should be in the dog park yet.

 

Maybe after you've had him for a while, but not yet.

 

You are just begging for trouble.

 

For what it's worth, I live in a condo. I have a Greyhound. The few times I've taken him to places to run, he could care less. All he wanted to do was sniff and pee. I wager he gets as much, or more exercise than the average Greyhound who has a fenced back yard because he is leash walked 5x a day, 365 days a year.

 

Greyhounds are among the laziest beasts on the planet. It's a myth that they "need" to run loose.

[Guest Newbie]

It's good to know that running isn't necessarily an essential part of being a retired grey. He looked like he was having so much fun when he ran at the kennel, which is why we had it stuck in our minds that it was important to him. However, if he's good with walks 4+ times a day, then we're happy with that, too. We'll heed your collective advice and stay away from the dog park for now.

 

I guess we're pushing him at a faster pace because we feel we're on a timeline to figure out if this can work by Thursday. I'm going to contact the kennel to talk through some of the issues we've experienced to see what they think and/or what they can do to help evaluate or improve the situation.

 

Thank you again. If anyone has any additional thoughts or advice, I continue to appreciate it.

[scullysmum]

It's good to know that running isn't necessarily an essential part of being a retired grey. He looked like he was having so much fun when he ran at the kennel, which is why we had it stuck in our minds that it was important to him. However, if he's good with walks 4+ times a day, then we're happy with that, too. We'll heed your collective advice and stay away from the dog park for now.

 

I guess we're pushing him at a faster pace because we feel we're on a timeline to figure out if this can work by Thursday. I'm going to contact the kennel to talk through some of the issues we've experienced to see what they think and/or what they can do to help evaluate or improve the situation.

 

Thank you again. If anyone has any additional thoughts or advice, I continue to appreciate it.

 

After your previous update re. Visiting the dog park I think your boy is making tremendous progress and I would certainly not stop letting have the chance to meet and socialise with other dogs of all shapes and sizes. After all he did not get to do this when he was a puppy like most pet dogs do. Just keep in mind what he is capable of and don't let yourself get too complacent. Sounds like he might be a good fit for you after all. I look forward to hearing his progress.

 

Btw. I have had my latest Grey (my 4th) for just over 3 months he is here to stay....but we are still on a steep learning curve so I can relate to your situation.

[NeedlenoseJake]

I can't say what to do in your particular situation, but I know that our boy, who was in a foster home for two weeks, has settled down considerably since we got him. He used to lunge towards smaller fluffy dogs on our walks, and now I think he gets that they are dogs because he doesn't do that. He is also very good at the dog park, but we are still always on guard because on his second visit he wanted to chase a tiny fluffy dog. Just realize that this is something you will have to watch, but mine did get better somewhat.

[Burpdog]

A week is not long enough for a trial period. Should be 2 weeks. I understand some of the groups not wanting to make it a bit longer than a week for many reasons

[Walliered]

I agree with George. My male could kill a small fluffy in 1 shake. I carry Halt (mace) and have used it 2 times.

[Guest roweboy]

I'm a fairly new GH owner (about 4 months) and our boy went from the track to a prison training program for 5 weeks before we got him. Very little was known about his prey drive and we have 4 cats.We were very concerned because he's close to 80 lbs and I worried about controlling him on a leash if he was hell-bent to attack something.

 

He is the best behaved dog I've ever had. I had to leave grocery bags containing meat and cold cuts unattended on the kitchen floor for about 5 minutes yesterday and when I came back he was lying quietly on his bed about 10 feet away and hadn't gone near the food!

 

I think you're making tremendous progress in just a week! If you LOVE this dog, you will find a way to make living with him work. I was just thinking today how much progress our dog (and our cats, 3/4 were pretty terrified of him despite having previous dogs) has made in all relationships in our house.

 

I think it's great that you're so aware of behavior issues and want to succeed. Give your new boy some time. So much is new to him! Don't try to cross too many bridges all at once. He's shown you that he's safe with your cat and hasn't tried to eat small dogs when he can smell them. He even tolerated a toddler! He's a winner and a keeper

 

Since your guy is already nicely tolerating sleeping near the cat, I think you're good on that, although I would be cautious and never leave him alone without a muzzle and a safe escape route for the cat. We waited several weeks until we knew that the cats could hide and CJ didn't care what they did. He was mildly interested at first and even chased a few times, especially when they ran or got spooked, so we waited quite awhile to ensure everyone's safety before he was left in the house freely. Now they can lie under him while he eats! They've been known to stretch up and sniff his food while he's eating he didn't react at all (not that I allow this because it's just not polite lol)

 

I don't think dog parks are great places for many dogs, not just greyhounds. I've seen dogs gang up on others and owners do nothing, which may make sense for dog behavior but 30 min of being taken to the ground and lying belly-up in the "go ahead and kill me" position couldn't have been much fun for the victim/submissive dog. I agree that your dog is probably getting plenty of exercise just on walks. I just came back from New York City and paid a lot of attention to the zillions of dogs who live there. I'd have to guess that 90% of them are never off leash and many of the breeds I saw are far more energetic than my hound, who is still very young (just 3). I'll probably not take our dog to a dog park again, and we'll seek out an unused baseball field and see if he's even interested in running.

 

All new dogs take a long time to acclimate to a new home. I'd say loving this dog and having him not want to kill your cat is fantastic. Good luck - it sounds like you've found a great dog!

Edited July 15, 2014 by roweboy

[Guest Jupiter]

We just got a fresh-off-the-track foster a week ago, and he's 70lbs with an ENORMOUS prey drive. Just this morning I walked him to the dog park so he could see non-greyhounds for the first time. Our little girl Honey, was just like him when we first got her. Completely reactive to anything that could run on 4 legs. We've had her almost 4 years now and she gets along great with little dogs, and I trust her unmuzzled and outside. It took us a long way to get there, but I wanted to give you a little hope.

 

Greyhounds coming off the track are NOT tame. They need lots of exposure to lots of different things before they start becoming desensitized to their racing history. With Hank I plan on going to the dog park, muzzled and leashed, every day. When he sees something that sets him off I don't shuffle him away where the trigger is out of sight. I let him have a "tantrum" right there in front of it, and eventually he WILL calm down. Today at the park it took 15 minutes before he could watch another dog playing fetch without lunging, but he eventually got so tired that he stopped lunging and started getting bored. The more times you can get your reactive dog bored in a reactive situation the less reactive he'll be next time, just the same way exposure therapy helps people with phobias.

 

I would suggest next time you are on a walk and your dog lunges or barks at something, just wait there in that situation until he calms down, and use a soothing voice, praising him every time he looks away from whatever he's fixating on. This approach turned my extremely reactive and prey-driven hound into a very sweet docile dog who can be 15ft from a squirrel and still take direction. I still muzzled her on walks for the entire first year, though!

[3greytjoys]

 

I plan on going to the dog park, muzzled and leashed, every day. When he sees something that sets him off I don't shuffle him away where the trigger is out of sight. I let him have a "tantrum" right there in front of it, and eventually he WILL calm down.

 

I respectfully disagree with the above suggestions for the OP. OP was concerned about a strong new dog overpowering her; therefore, the safe heeling training techniques are much safer for the handler, Greyhound, and the potential animal who could be harmed if an extremely frustrated hound suddenly bolted to attack an outside prey target. (Highly determined hounds can bite through muzzles, and can harm prey with their legs.)

 

Forcing newly retired Greyhounds into those types of highly stressful, restricted, potentially threatening situations can negatively affect the neurotransmitters in the hound's brain for a long time (days+ or longer). The excited and frustrated hound's learning receptors can shut down and delay the desired result, even creating completely new behavior problems. Better for the new hound to develop a healthy, respectful, trusting training bond with the hound's new handler first, then slowly begin to desensitize the hound to outside stimuli -- without "flooding" the hound.

 

IMO, placing hunting breeds (or many other dog breeds) in all-breed occupied dog parks can set them up for failure. If a hound suddenly follows his/her deeply-rooted instincts (bred for thousands of years to hunt moving prey), the cost can be huge. Humans can't run 30-45 mph to reach their dogs in time. Not only could others' smaller dogs be harmed, but if any dog becomes labeled as dangerous from a dog park incident by their city's animal control, most ACO's will seize, impound, and euthanize the dog. Lawsuits, emergency veterinary bills, court costs, and fines can wind up costing tens of thousands of dollars. IMO, it's just not worth a quick run in occupied dog parks.

 

Greyhound races only last about 30 seconds. A leashed brief jog, hike, or walk with their owner gives retired hounds plenty of exercise.

 

 

The post below is worth a reread:

 

 

I just want to point out that it's never a good idea to leave one dog muzzled in a pack of other unmuzzled dogs (the same goes with leashes). It creates a dynamic where the other dogs can gang up and target the "disadvantaged" one. It also leaves your dog defenseless should he need to protect himself.

 

 

 

OP "Newbie": I'm happy to read about this boy's progress, especially in that unexpected risky small dog situation. Fingers crossed that he may work well for you. He sounds like an affectionate sweetie -- a diamond in the ruff (pun intended).

Edited July 17, 2014 by 3greytjoys

[scullysmum]

A week is not long enough for a trial period. Should be 2 weeks. I understand some of the groups not wanting to make it a bit longer than a week for many reasons

I'm not sure that any trial period is long enough. Had Johnny just over three months and he is still surprising me every day, and probably will for some time to come.

I think that it puts people under undue pressure to take the dog because of course they fall in love with it (at least most of the time!) and then they are torn if the dog presents problems after the trial period because it is as though they must have known what to expect, when many problems do not show up until later and many that do show up early can be ironed out in the long or short term.

[Guest shawshank393]

It's hard to actually know what your dog will do to be honest. I've had Tom for over 2 years now and he regularly rears up when he sees cats when on lead. I think he just wants to play or chase as when I'm on the field and someone else brings on a small dog without asking anything about my dog (always annoying), Tom flies over to them from miles away and ends up just sniffing their butt or trying to get them to play.