New Grey Adopter -- Problems With Crating / Poo

[Guest ismaris]

Hello GreyTalk,

 

I am a new owner of a beautiful 2-year old male greyhound named Panzer. We just adopted him 12 days ago, and he was fostered for two and a half weeks prior to our adoption. I'll describe the issues we are having below:

 

My girlfriend and I both work fulltime jobs, and we have been crating Panzer while we are at work. Unfortunately, every day we have kept him crated, we come back to him having gone poo in his crate, and at least within the last week, he eats that poo. I keep a live skype session on his crate all day so I can monitor him while at work, and below is what I have observed:

 

7:40am - Crate Panzer and head off to work

8:30am - Arrive at work, and pull up Skype to observe him. Usually he is standing in his crate, rooing. He alternates between laying down for 5-10 minutes and rooing for a couple of minutes.

10am-3pm - Panzer will begin rooing and showing signs of anxiety, and then he will turn in his crate a few times, dig back his bedding with his claws, and then squat in his crate. After pooing, he will eat some of this poo.

Post-poo - after taking his poo, he pretty much sleeps for the rest of the day until we arrive home.

 

Obviously, this is not great for us to come home to after a day at work. We have to take him out, bathe him, clean the poo off his bedding, do a laundry cycle to clean it all up, and pretty much we have been repeating this process everyday. Some important points to mention:

 

- Panzer was fostered with another grey and was always crated beside her, making our house the first house he has been completely alone in. The foster reported that panzer was fine in his crate all day, and that he never had any accidents in his crate.

 

- Though the foster put Panzer through a treatment of Panacur, Last Wednesday I found a tapeworm proglottid in his poo. We took him to the vet, who confirmed this was a tapeworm, and started another round of fenbendazole that finished on Saturday. This tapeworm infestation dramatically increases my own anxiety about him ingesting his own poo while crated, as it carries a high risk of reinfection.

 

- In his first week, I found three fleas on Panzer, and put him on fipronil as treatment. This was likely the source of his tapeworms, and certainly a factor for reinfection. I haven't found any fleas since Sunday, but I am wanting to pursue a more aggressive flea treatment than fipronil.

 

- My foster was unclear in his communication which food he had been feeding panzer (He said he had mixed multiple brands, from purina pro plan to blue buffalo), and that it shouldn't matter which food I ended up going with. We currently have panzer on newman's own organics.

 

My girlfriend and I have tried lots of different things to make his crate day easier. We have spent loads of time with him in the crate with us beside him, and he is fine. He will sit in there and nap. We leave for short trips to the store, and then longer trips, and generally, he is fine with that (No poo accidents). We crate him about 20 minutes before going to work, and give him some fresh water inside his crate, as well as a kong stuffed with peanut butter and his favorite toy. We have given him pumpkin sporadically, and some rice, but we have not been consistent with this. He generally presents no anxiety until I am at work. We started with feeding him two cups of kibble in the morning, and two cups in the evening, but since he has presented these issues, we switched to 1 cup in the morning and 3 cups in the evening. I am wondering if he would do better (less poo throughout the day) with a 2 cups after work and 2 cups before bedtime schedule, that way he could digest it over night and poo before work in the morning. If this issue persists for a couple more weeks, I am debating leaving him gated in the kitchen instead of crated, as I do not want him to be laying in / eating his own poo. I would rather clean up a mess on the kitchen floor than have that happen. I also think it might be prudent to change his food if this persists much longer, as he's been on newman's for 12 days and still has very soft, soupy poo.

 

I appreciate any tips you guys can give me. I am really giving this my best shot, but I hate seeing him miserable throughout the day..

Edited June 25, 2014 by ismaris

[Feisty49]

I've had no experience with this problem but if I were in your shoes, I would experiment with him out of his crate. When you leave him for a short time, such as shopping on weekend days, do you crate him? If you do, leave him out of the crate next time and see how it goes, meaning does he freak out, does he poo or pee all over, does he chew on things, etc. We all know Greys are crated at the track. They have to be. I've never thought that meant they liked it, especially after experiencing living in a house.

 

Again, if I were in your shoes, I would have a goal of my dog not having to be crated at all. That's just me because I stopped using the crate for my Annie on day #2 or #3 post adoption (3 years ago) and let her have the run of the house. She never caused a problem. There are some who disagree about not using the crate and there are some who agree. What often works is leaving the crate up and accessible (door always open) to the dog has the choice of using the crate or not. IMO, what works best for the dog, without him/her having issues or chewing down the place, is what I would do.

 

Another thing, how long is your morning walk before work? The longer the walk, the more likely it is he'll empty himself.

 

Food: Yikes about mixing all kinds of brands. But hey, whatever worked or was easy for the foster home. The more you read Greytalk the more you'll find that there are many of us who don't buy into the high-end dog food as the best to offer. I'm one of them. Once the worm issue is gone, you'll find what kibble works for Panzar and keep an open mind re quality of kibble. You want something that gives him energy, keeps his coat looking good and doesn't give him diarrhea.

 

Good luck -- and we need pictures.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Feisty49

[Guest ismaris]

edit: I had posted that I was moving this thread, but I'm going to keep it here since we have replies on this one.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ismaris

[Guest ismaris]

We have not yet given him the run of the place, as we wanted to start Panzer with crating if at all possible (If the crate causes no anxiety for your dog, it is a powerful tool that helps in traveling, preventing destruction to the home/dog, etc.). If I were to start leaving him uncrated, it would be with confinement to the kitchen. If that went well, I would give him more room (the living and dining rooms).

 

I knew I left something out of my original post--the morning routine. In the morning, we wake at 5am and take him for a walk to poo and pee. This walk is probably 10 minutes. After he does his morning business, we bring him in and feed and water him. We then take him out again for another chance to poo. Sometimes he goes, sometimes not. Then, before I leave for work at 7:30am, I take him out a final time. This morning, this resulted in him taking two substantial poos (He should be as close to cleaned out as he can be, given our feeding schedule).

 

Picture of Panzer:

 

http://imgur.com/uDh3g0M

Edited June 25, 2014 by ismaris

[Feisty49]

I'm going to copy and move my response above to the new link so others see it. There's no way for us to eliminate a thread (the monitors can). Threads can be edited but I don't know if editing is restricted to those of us who are "community supporters."

 

Because both threads will be active, you'll want to check both of them. At top right is a box to click to be notified when someone posts.

 

P.S. He is gorgeous!!!

Edited June 25, 2014 by Feisty49

[Guest ismaris]

Thanks! I asked the mods to delete the other one. Didn't know we couldn't delete--whoops!

 

I appreciate your feedback. It's hard to know what is causing his issues, with all that has happened in his life lately.

[Hubcitypam]

Ditch the crate an muzzle and/or baby gate him. Leave the crate with the door open where you gate him, if you do. This is the second thread in two days about 2 year olds hating their crates. The dog is telling you something - listen to him.

In a slightly unrelated theme. my Poodle can have peed and pooped then somehow conger up poop from nowhere to express his displease at other dogs when we are on a walk. He may be saying he's displeased in the crate. As far as worms Dotnrol Plus is the way to go. Period. Foodwise Blue Buffalo has given all of my dogs (not just greys) the runs. My Rex had colitis and I tried what seemed like a dozen high end foods. I got so disgusted I threw a bag of green bag Iams in my cart. . The underline should be on my tombstone I've preached it enough on GT and elsewhere for ten years or so. It's the beet pulp. Some have bought the huge bags of beet pulp for horses but I recommend just finding a food high in beet pulp.

Good luck to you and your handsome boy.

[Guest ismaris]

Thanks for your reply, Hubcitypam. I am thinking that I should try this Iams food, seeing as how you all swear by it. As for your dewormer, did you make a typo? I'm not finding that medication through google. The vet recommended fenbendazole--why do you think the vet would recommend that over the other medication?

 

edit: nevermind, I assume you were referring to drontal plus.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ismaris

[Hubcitypam]

Yes it was a typo. Sorry. The president of one of the largest greyhound adoption groups around here told me years ago that if her purse was stolen her biggest loss would be the industrial size drontal plus she had for the kennel dogs...it was worth more than any cash she carried and she could cancel/replace credit cards.

[Guest CleverJason]

Do you leave a radio or something on while you're away? I know my dog hates silence. Also, you may want to consider reducing his overall food for a while...For me, I started off feeding Baron 4.5 cups per day and he had accidents all the time. I backed it down to 3 and then slowly added a little more each day over the course of two weeks, and now he's back up to 4.5 and doing fine.

 

About the crate-I've never used one, and the only problem I ever had was Baron chewing on the door handle. I solved it by using a muzzle...on the door handle! Try it for short periods of time. Some dogs just do better without one.

[Padfootx13]

I want to second the comment about the amount of food. When Padfoot came home with us we were instructed to feed him 4 cups a day and he had really runny poops, bad gas, and gained weight fast, even with lots of walks. Some of the GI issues were change and stress but it wasn't until we cut back to 2 cups a day that he really leveled out on his weight and his GI issues are gone now. He was too skinny when we got him (61 lbs)--they had him on W/D because of hookworm, then four months later he was up to 68 lbs, now he is a good 64 lbs. He gets 1 cup in the morning, 1 cup when I get home from work, and training treats. If your boy is pretty large I could see feeding him more, but 4 cups is quite a bit of food unless he's doing a lot of exercise.

 

Also, he's very handsome!

Edited June 25, 2014 by Padfootx13

[Guest ismaris]

Do you leave a radio or something on while you're away? I know my dog hates silence. Also, you may want to consider reducing his overall food for a while...For me, I started off feeding Baron 4.5 cups per day and he had accidents all the time. I backed it down to 3 and then slowly added a little more each day over the course of two weeks, and now he's back up to 4.5 and doing fine.

 

About the crate-I've never used one, and the only problem I ever had was Baron chewing on the door handle. I solved it by using a muzzle...on the door handle! Try it for short periods of time. Some dogs just do better without one.

I actually leave the TV on, but I have tried the radio. There pretty much hasn't been a day yet where he has had complete silence. I am going to try reducing his food to 3 cups for awhile. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

I want to second the comment about the amount of food. When Padfoot came home with us we were instructed to feed him 4 cups a day and he had really runny poops, bad gas, and gained weight fast, even with lots of walks. Some of the GI issues were change and stress but it wasn't until we cut back to 2 cups a day that he really leveled out on his weight and his GI issues are gone now. He was too skinny when we got him (61 lbs)--they had him on W/D because of hookworm, then four months later he was up to 68 lbs, now he is a good 64 lbs. He gets 1 cup in the morning, 1 cup when I get home from work, and training treats. If your boy is pretty large I could see feeding him more, but 4 cups is quite a bit of food unless he's doing a lot of exercise.

 

Also, he's very handsome!

I will try reducing to three cups. Do you think it would be okay to give him all of this in the evening, or is it important that they receive their food twice a day?

[KF_in_Georgia]

You're going to want to feed at least something in the morning. Otherwise, he's liable to start barfing up yellow bile. (And if he's eating poop, he'll start barfing that up, too. Very nasty.) Maybe give him a half-cup in the morning before you leave for work or fill a Kong and leave that for him to work on during the day..

 

Also, sometimes it's not the crate. It's the separation. My boy has separation anxiety (he's taking clomipramine for it and getting better). He's crated when I leave. If I leave him out of the crate, he'll pee and poop in the house. In the crate, he's peeing and/or pooping on a canvas/fleece pad* that's washable (and I have a couple of spares so I can put down a clean one if I need to go out again before I've had time to do laundry). In the worst case, I've had to use waterless shampoo on him when I've come home, but he usually manages to keep himself out of the mess. But if I don't crate him, he pees and poops in the house--and not always in places where it's as easy to clean up (although he stays clean). And I have another dog to keep him company. He just really expects people to be there for him 24/7. I haven't got a floor plan that lends itself to confinement in an easy-to-clean room, and I also worry about anxiety pushing him to get into something dangerous. Crated, he just pees and poops and then waits for me to come home. Uncrated, he'll pee and poop and then have lots of options.

 

By the way: another fan of Iams in the green bag, here. My girl has been on it for a year for all the usual reasons. When I got my boy in November (as a foster) from his former owner, she apologetically said he was on Iams in the green bag because it was the only food she'd found that didn't give him diarrhea.

*Costco used to carry these pads designed as throws to put over furniture or other things you didn't want dog hair on. I bought several of them. Folded in half, they fit neatly in the floor of a 48" crate. Drs Foster & Smith have something similar here.

[Guest ismaris]

You're going to want to feed at least something in the morning. Otherwise, he's liable to start barfing up yellow bile. (And if he's eating poop, he'll start barfing that up, too. Very nasty.) Maybe give him a half-cup in the morning before you leave for work or fill a Kong and leave that for him to work on during the day..

 

Also, sometimes it's not the crate. It's the separation. My boy has separation anxiety (he's taking clomipramine for it and getting better). He's crated when I leave. If I leave him out of the crate, he'll pee and poop in the house. In the crate, he's peeing and/or pooping on a canvas/fleece pad* that's washable (and I have a couple of spares so I can put down a clean one if I need to go out again before I've had time to do laundry). In the worst case, I've had to use waterless shampoo on him when I've come home, but he usually manages to keep himself out of the mess. But if I don't crate him, he pees and poops in the house--and not always in places where it's as easy to clean up (although he stays clean). And I have another dog to keep him company. He just really expects people to be there for him 24/7. I haven't got a floor plan that lends itself to confinement in an easy-to-clean room, and I also worry about anxiety pushing him to get into something dangerous. Crated, he just pees and poops and then waits for me to come home. Uncrated, he'll pee and poop and then have lots of options.

 

By the way: another fan of Iams in the green bag, here. My girl has been on it for a year for all the usual reasons. When I got my boy in November (as a foster) from his former owner, she apologetically said he was on Iams in the green bag because it was the only food she'd found that didn't give him diarrhea.

 

*Costco used to carry these pads designed as throws to put over furniture or other things you didn't want dog hair on. I bought several of them. Folded in half, they fit neatly in the floor of a 48" crate. Drs Foster & Smith have something similar here.

 

Oh, I've had some exposure to the poopy vomit--nasty stuff indeed, and hard to get out of the carpet. I am leaving a kong in his bed, and it does entertain him for a good half hour or so, but that leaves another 9 hours for him to get into all sort of anxious mischief.

 

I am debating trying the Iam's green bag. Generally, I'm not a fan of how the larger brands go nuts on preservative spraying on their foods (The concept of meal doesn't really bother me like it does so many, as often in the wild these dogs would be eating all sorts of things off the carcass that are not "healthy muscle tissue"). I am debating just picking up a small bag on my way home from work today and seeing how it goes. I did go to a dog food store over lunch, and boy were there all sorts of opinions flying around in there. Basically, I've come to the consensus that the science of canine diet is just a farce, and no one has a handle on it. It seems to be so all over the place, with every recommendation under the sun, that I can really only rely on empirical evidence (i.e. what doesn't make my dog have diarrhea).

 

But yeah, you're right. It's not necessarily the food, which is why I almost posted this in the health section rather than diet. There are so many possible factors at this point that I don't know what is causing it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ismaris

[Guest CleverJason]

I will try reducing to three cups. Do you think it would be okay to give him all of this in the evening, or is it important that they receive their food twice a day?

 

As I understand it, feeding smaller meals twice a day reduces the risk of bloat. Could be wrong though. If you've been feeding him in the morning, he will not like it if that stops.

[a_daerr]

 

I did go to a dog food store over lunch, and boy were there all sorts of opinions flying around in there. Basically, I've come to the consensus that the science of canine diet is just a farce, and no one has a handle on it. It seems to be so all over the place, with every recommendation under the sun, that I can really only rely on empirical evidence (i.e. what doesn't make my dog have diarrhea).

 

YES!!!!

[Brandiandwe]

I, personally, would be exercising him a lot more before leaving him. Like, take him out for an hour in the morning. At 2, he's got huge amounts of energy. Burn some if that off, get him good and tired, feed, final poop and pee, into the crate (if you must. It can be useful or can be a source of anxiety. If it makes him anxious locking him in it for 10 hours a day won't help). Cut down the food.

[greysmom]

Yeah. Probably not so much a food issue as one with separation anxiety - he's just not used to being alone all day. Once you get the bad worm infestation under control, his bowel movements should get better on their own. A dog who is not sick will not voluntarily soil their own crate. You may have to do several rounds of treatment to get rid of a bad infestation.

 

If you didn't in the beginning, and even if you did, go back an be very concientious about doing some "alone training" for your dog. If you search in the Training section here there are a ton of threads about it. Also, getting him some consistent exercise before you leave will help - not just a potty walk, but a good, fast-paced, burn-off-some-energy walk.

 

Is there a reason you are using the crate? Has he been destructive at other times? Some dogs just do better when left free in the house. Shut doors or put up baby gates to contain him in a quiet, easily cleanable part of the house.

 

If possible, you can also consider coming home at lunchtime, or having someone (friend, family member, hire a dog walker) come let him out for a mid day potty break. Especially until you get his worm issue under control.

[RaineysMom]

 

Oh, I've had some exposure to the poopy vomit--nasty stuff indeed, and hard to get out of the carpet. I am leaving a kong in his bed, and it does entertain him for a good half hour or so, but that leaves another 9 hours for him to get into all sort of anxious mischief.

 

I am debating trying the Iam's green bag. Generally, I'm not a fan of how the larger brands go nuts on preservative spraying on their foods (The concept of meal doesn't really bother me like it does so many, as often in the wild these dogs would be eating all sorts of things off the carcass that are not "healthy muscle tissue"). I am debating just picking up a small bag on my way home from work today and seeing how it goes. I did go to a dog food store over lunch, and boy were there all sorts of opinions flying around in there. Basically, I've come to the consensus that the science of canine diet is just a farce, and no one has a handle on it. It seems to be so all over the place, with every recommendation under the sun, that I can really only rely on empirical evidence (i.e. what doesn't make my dog have diarrhea).

 

But yeah, you're right. It's not necessarily the food, which is why I almost posted this in the health section rather than diet. There are so many possible factors at this point that I don't know what is causing it.

Our Zeke had terrible hookworms and diarrhea when we got him in January of 2004. We found that Kirkland's lamb and rice formula worked great for him.

 

if he was ok being crated with another dog next to him, I would think it's being alone too. Guessing adopting a 2nd isn't an option.

 

As I understand it, feeding smaller meals twice a day reduces the risk of bloat. Could be wrong though. If you've been feeding him in the morning, he will not like it if that stops.

yes, that's the thought on that. After our Nube bloated, the vet suggested we feed 3 smaller meals per day instead of 2 larger....

[Batmom]

Going in the crate: You have a couple possibilities (in no special order):

 

1. Dog isn't empty before you leave (how did he do today, after all that poop this a.m.?).

2. Dog needs a mid-day turnout/walk (often temporary, until dog gets settled into the household routine).

3. Dog is ill (food doesn't agree with him, hookworms, etc.).

4. Dog has some anxiety, and anxiety --> needs to poop and/or pee before you get home. (Sometimes this is more crate anxiety than separation anxiety, and not using the crate helps.)

5. Dog is being fed more than necessary and thus has to poop more than one might expect. (4 cups/day for a new dog burning up extra energy -- because he's new -- isn't unreasonable, but it might be too much for him.)

6. Some combination of the above. E.g., if dog has some anxiety AND has worms, ai yi yi yi yi!

 

Hopefully you can work through how best to help him settle while you're at work. FWIW, I usually crate my current dogs when nobody is home, but if one isn't feeling well, I leave them out of the crate. Much easier to clean a spot (or even a trail) on the carpet than to have to clean the dog, the crate, the wall behind the crate, the rug under the crate, the bedding in the crate, etc.

 

 

 

 

ETA: After rereading your observations of his day, I suspect he honestly has to go and is getting anxious BECAUSE he has to go rather than having to go because he's anxious.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Batmom

[Padfootx13]

I will try reducing to three cups. Do you think it would be okay to give him all of this in the evening, or is it important that they receive their food twice a day?

Yes, like everyone else above, I would split it into two meals.

[GeorgeofNE]

He needs WAY more exercise before being crated all day. WAY more.

 

I get up an hour early--six years after adopting my dog who is now nearly 12. And I have two artificial hips, but I still manage to walk him for 45 minutes before work. Rain or shine. Summer, winter, and fall!

 

Your dog has SA. The more tired he is, the calmer he will be. Please try it!

[CharlieRhea]

He needs WAY more exercise before being crated all day. WAY more.

 

I get up an hour early--six years after adopting my dog who is now nearly 12. And I have two artificial hips, but I still manage to walk him for 45 minutes before work. Rain or shine. Summer, winter, and fall!

 

Your dog has SA. The more tired he is, the calmer he will be. Please try it!

I agree

[Guest ismaris]

Yeah. Probably not so much a food issue as one with separation anxiety - he's just not used to being alone all day. Once you get the bad worm infestation under control, his bowel movements should get better on their own. A dog who is not sick will not voluntarily soil their own crate. You may have to do several rounds of treatment to get rid of a bad infestation.

 

If you didn't in the beginning, and even if you did, go back an be very concientious about doing some "alone training" for your dog. If you search in the Training section here there are a ton of threads about it. Also, getting him some consistent exercise before you leave will help - not just a potty walk, but a good, fast-paced, burn-off-some-energy walk.

 

Is there a reason you are using the crate? Has he been destructive at other times? Some dogs just do better when left free in the house. Shut doors or put up baby gates to contain him in a quiet, easily cleanable part of the house.

 

If possible, you can also consider coming home at lunchtime, or having someone (friend, family member, hire a dog walker) come let him out for a mid day potty break. Especially until you get his worm issue under control.

 

Unfortunately, my girlfriend and I both commute 40+ minutes a day to work, and a turnout over lunch isn't an option. We are using the crate because, within the first day or so of getting him, he did have a poo accident in the bedroom, a pee accident in the bathroom, and we also are just proponents of crate training. It's a great tool for traveling, preventing home destruction, etc. I am considering giving him a trial out of the crate, as giving him a bath, cleaning his bedding, his crate, and the carpet, are all much more work than just cleaning the carpet. The other concern is that he does still shed tapeworm proglottids (despite two rounds of treatment, and a third on the way next week), so I am not wanting those to fall into nooks and crannies and not get cleaned.

 

 

Going in the crate: You have a couple possibilities (in no special order):

 

1. Dog isn't empty before you leave (how did he do today, after all that poop this a.m.?).

2. Dog needs a mid-day turnout/walk (often temporary, until dog gets settled into the household routine).

3. Dog is ill (food doesn't agree with him, hookworms, etc.).

4. Dog has some anxiety, and anxiety --> needs to poop and/or pee before you get home. (Sometimes this is more crate anxiety than separation anxiety, and not using the crate helps.)

5. Dog is being fed more than necessary and thus has to poop more than one might expect. (4 cups/day for a new dog burning up extra energy -- because he's new -- isn't unreasonable, but it might be too much for him.)

6. Some combination of the above. E.g., if dog has some anxiety AND has worms, ai yi yi yi yi!

 

Hopefully you can work through how best to help him settle while you're at work. FWIW, I usually crate my current dogs when nobody is home, but if one isn't feeling well, I leave them out of the crate. Much easier to clean a spot (or even a trail) on the carpet than to have to clean the dog, the crate, the wall behind the crate, the rug under the crate, the bedding in the crate, etc.

 

 

 

 

ETA: After rereading your observations of his day, I suspect he honestly has to go and is getting anxious BECAUSE he has to go rather than having to go because he's anxious.

I am very seriously considering baby gating him in our kitchen space. Assuming he doesn't jump the gate (which is a big assumption), it would be very easy to clean up any accidents.

I, personally, would be exercising him a lot more before leaving him. Like, take him out for an hour in the morning. At 2, he's got huge amounts of energy. Burn some if that off, get him good and tired, feed, final poop and pee, into the crate (if you must. It can be useful or can be a source of anxiety. If it makes him anxious locking him in it for 10 hours a day won't help). Cut down the food.

I think you're right. We need to be exercising him more. It would be great if I could find a nearby field to run him at.

 

Also, I'm glad to report a couple of things: First, yesterday was the FIRST DAY that he did not have an accident in his crate! He still was having loose stool, but apparently he was able to hold it in all day, which is GREAT!!! Second, we moved him to a new food yesterday afternoon, Orijen, and this morning he had the most solid, healthy looking poo that I've seen him have yet. I am expecting good results on this food.

[a_daerr]

Glad to hear a good update.

 

If the problem starts back up again, would you be open to confining him, but not in a crate? For example, babygating him in the kitchen. That way, it will feel less restricting for him, but it will still be easier to clean up if he has an accident? For destructive dogs or chewers, a muzzle is another good alternative.