Anipryl And ? ,,doggie Has Ccd (Anyone Ever Used This Drug)

[Guest FordRacingRon]

Leia is 11, showing signs of CCD. We were treating her with suppliments, Hills B/D Prescription diet and int he daytime Trazadone and for sleep ACE. The Trazadone would take the edge off for most of the day and the ACE helps her sleep But I think the Trazadone is not working well anymore. BTW, she has had a complete blood workup and everything was greyhound normal and she does stilll eat and poo.

 

Why she needs the edge taken off : She doesn't do the wandering into walls, or staring into walls or missing doorways, or house accidents or most of the symptoms. What she does do is start panting non-stop. Generally when she wakes up until about 5 PM she is mostly the dog we know (today she ran laps and dug a trench). But at 5 or 6ish the panting starts and she just seem uncomfortable in her skin. She will just stand in fron of me or the DW and pant for 2-4 hours, then she lies down and sleeps through the night.

 

We ahve been holding off on the Anipry (I have the script already) because what we were doing was working and if it works, don't fix it. But I think the Trazadone is not having the great the effect anymore that is was having and the panting is starting earlier and the trazadone dose is getting higher (BTW,,she only uses one 50mg pill a day,,half at noon and half at 5pm).

 

So we are goign to, I think, start the Anipryl on Friday but the deal is the insert says one of the side-effects is nervousness and my lord she does not need that. Also, there is a medication complication with using Anipryl and Trazadone (but not he ACE).

 

So a long story to get o the question....has anyone used Anipryl and any type of sedative with it as she doesn't blow up from nervousness?

[cmc333]

I'm sure someone w/ a lot more knowledge will chime in, but has the dr. considered Xanax for the evening? That takes the edge off for my thunderphobics. Others will have different opinions, but I won't use Ace on any dog. But like I said, there are people on this board who have lots of experience with drugs, interactions, dosages...someone will be able to help you. Good luck - it's horrible to know your houndie isn't feeling right and you can't fix the problem.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

I'm sure someone w/ a lot more knowledge will chime in, but has the dr. considered Xanax for the evening? That takes the edge off for my thunderphobics. Others will have different opinions, but I won't use Ace on any dog. But like I said, there are people on this board who have lots of experience with drugs, interactions, dosages...someone will be able to help you. Good luck - it's horrible to know your houndie isn't feeling right and you can't fix the problem.

I have thought about xanax but I think it also falls into the class of drugs that cannot be used with Anipryl. According to the insert I read the other drawback is if the Anipryl does not have the desired effect, you have to wait 2 weeks before going back to that type of drug.

 

Although I could try xanax in stead of Traz to see if it works.

 

I wouldn't give the ACE either normally and only give her what would be considered 1/4 of the dose for a dog of her size. First time I thought I killed her she was out so hard, but now it barely even works on her (I won't increase the dosage because I am pretty sure it is not a good choice for a sighthound).

[JJNg]

First, is the only sign she has the panting in the evenings? Any other behavior changes or changes in how she's interacting with you? If the panting is the only sign, I'm not convinced that she has cognitive dysfunction. Have you considered the possibility that she has some low-grade, chronic pain/discomfort that may be causing these episodes? There are lots of things that cause panting in older dogs; CCD usually presents with other signs.

 

To rule out pain/discomfort, it's fairly easy to do a trial course of pain meds (usually an NSAID), or even a joint supplement like Dasuquin which provides some relief of pain and inflammation. To give an example, I recently saw a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was waking the owner up at night panting at around 3-4 am every night. Acting completely normal otherwise, going on walks as usual, no obvious signs of pain on physical exam other than a slight stiffness around his hips. Bloodwork and chest x-rays were normal, and we did a trial course of Dasuquin. He stopped panting within days of starting the supplement.

 

That said, the classes of drugs that can't be used with Anipryl, and require a washout period when switching, are the antidepressants that increase serotonin levels - SSRIs like Prozac or Paxil, and TCAs like Clomicalm. The risk is causing a side effect called serotonin syndrome. Trazodone does increase serotonin levels, but has fairly mild effects compared to drugs like Prozac. It can be used with Anipryl if done cautiously. Benzodiazepines like Valium or Xanax are safe to use with Anipryl, but there is some concern that sedatives like these have the potential to increase confusion and make CCD worse.

 

Have you asked your vet about the combination of drugs? Also, while nervousness is listed as a potential side effect of Anipryl, it only happens in a small percentage of dogs.

Edited June 3, 2014 by JJNg

[Guest FordRacingRon]

First, is the only sign she has the panting in the evenings? Any other behavior changes or changes in how she's interacting with you? If the panting is the only sign, I'm not convinced that she has cognitive dysfunction. Have you considered the possibility that she has some low-grade, chronic pain/discomfort that may be causing these episodes? There are lots of things that cause panting in older dogs; CCD usually presents with other signs.

 

To rule out pain/discomfort, it's fairly easy to do a trial course of pain meds (usually an NSAID), or even a joint supplement like Dasuquin which provides some relief of pain and inflammation. To give an example, I recently saw a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was waking the owner up at night panting at around 3-4 am every night. Acting completely normal otherwise, going on walks as usual, no obvious signs of pain on physical exam other than a slight stiffness around his hips. Bloodwork and chest x-rays were normal, and we did a trial course of Dasuquin. He stopped panting within days of starting the supplement.

 

I was basing what I was doing on a book called Good Old Dog which was written by the Tufts Veterinary school. They did say before you drug your dog , try pain relievers because nothing is lost . We did try rymadyl for a couple of weeks but to no avail so we went the Trazadone route.

 

The thing is,and maybe I am in denial, but I question if is CCD too. She still knows her name, she still responds most of the time. I have a brain game she plays and still knows how to do that. Except for the hours of standing in front of us panting she seems to be normal to me.

 

She has always been sort of high stung and that really what she seem like to me. When she would get ampped up in the younger years she would pant and act really nervous but it would pass quickly. That seems to be what she is doing now but it does not pass quickly.

 

This is so very tough because if I had a of money i would be at a neurologist but I have to go by what my vet thinks. But my gut says she needs something to calm her down and if she had that she would be her old self.

Oh,,and I did ask my vet about drug interactions but the Trazadone usage is fairly new to him and at first he said,,because of the lower amount we give her, that it would be fine. Then later he changed his mind.

[Batmom]

Has she had an abdominal x-ray? Might be worth it.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

Has she had an abdominal x-ray? Might be worth it.

No,,but I am thinking about it. Why I haven't done that is she eats pretty normally and poos fine. I guess a few more hundred bucks would be worth it if there is a hidden problem. What could be wrong in her abdomen but not bad enough to stop her from eating and going?

[Batmom]

She could have some enlargement of spleen, a mass, etc. Some of those things can be enough to cause periodic discomfort but not enough to affect digestion and appetite. Worth a look-see.

 

Does an x-ray cost that much where you are? Here I think the first view may be $70 now, subsequent views half that or less. Shouldn't need to sedate her at all.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

She could have some enlargement of spleen, a mass, etc. Some of those things can be enough to cause periodic discomfort but not enough to affect digestion and appetite. Worth a look-see.

 

Does an x-ray cost that much where you are? Here I think the first view may be $70 now, subsequent views half that or less. Shouldn't need to sedate her at all.

Probably not as far as cost but of course i have the expensive vet. I am taking her in Thursday and I am seeing his partner so maybe a new set of eyes/ears.

 

Here is standard routind in case you are interested. She wakes up with me at 630. Is fine. we walk, it's fine. she has her breakfast, fine. By noon she is generally fine but I give her a half of a 50mg Trazadone. She usually sleeps most of the day (which is like her normal routine, in fact she is sleeping next to me as I type). Then around 5 she starts panting . She is hotter then heck too. And this can go on anywhere for an hour, up to 5 or 6 hours. She stands in front of me or my DW and pants. If I can convince her to go out, she will sit out in the yard for 1-2 hours and be fine outside doing that.

 

The reason we started this journey is with in the last year , 3 times she has woken us up in the middle of the night and is shaking violently like she is terrified and nothing seemed to help so I would sit up with her for 4 or 5 hours until she calmed down then she would fall asleep, wake up and everything is normal. She would want to go outside, stand outside and shakes, then I would bring her in and this would go on for a few hours. In and out and in and out.

 

But a month or so ago this happened 3 times in 3 nights in a row so off to the vet we go. In the meantime I am reading up on what it could be but I could get no idea. Someone here suggested Trazadone and although that shouldn't be a cure, her habit changed to what I described above but she now never gets the shakes anymore at all.

 

It seemed to me she may have CCD and to the vet as her bloodwork was perfect,,,,but it also seemed that she just was super nervous and the drugs seemed to work. But the last couple of days (except for today) she starts the panting routine at noon and it goes on until like 10 pm and the Traz doesn't 100% work.

 

So I want to start her on the Anipryl if it will help, but not if that won't really help the cause and liek I said, I am now not 100% convinced this is her problem.

[greyhead]

I'm not sure I'd use Rimadyl to determine that the issue isn't pain. It's an anti-inflammatory, which can help with pain, but it's not a pain killer per se.

 

Our dog has been behaving like yours, we had him thoroughly imaged over the last month or two, and he's doing very well on the following: gabapentin, tramadol, methocarbamol, and melatonin if more sedation is needed. (We did a straight week of melatonin to start with, to get his sleep/wake cycle back on track.)

[cmc333]

I have taken Trazadone in the past and my dr. told me to take it about an hour before going to bed to help relax and fall asleep. If you gave her the Trazadone later in the day, would it do any good? Maybe give it to her an hour or so before she starts the panting and see if that would help take the edge off?

[Guest FordRacingRon]

I have taken Trazadone in the past and my dr. told me to take it about an hour before going to bed to help relax and fall asleep. If you gave her the Trazadone later in the day, would it do any good? Maybe give it to her an hour or so before she starts the panting and see if that would help take the edge off?

At first we gave her no more Traz during the day. Then we started to add like 1/4 of a pill at 5 pm and generally it doesn't stop the trouble. Yesterday we upped the dosage to half a pill (25mg) and she slept so much she wouldn't eat dinner (In between waking up to pant). i got her to nibble some food at 11 pm.

I think the main reason for CCD to be diagnosed was my description of the shaking and the goign in and out for hours at a time (after blood test ruled out whatever). Now though, once we started her on a brain supplement, the special dog food and the Traz she has morphed into what I described and the original symptoms of what appeared to be CCD have changed.

[Guest goofydog]

If she were a human with these signs/symptoms my first thought would be Sundowners Syndrome. Not at all sure if this exists for canines or what the possible treatment(s) might be. Just wanted to toss another option out there. Good luck with your Princess.

[Batmom]

It's possible that something like sundowner's could exist in dogs, but in my experience, behavioral changes almost always result from one of the big three -- 1. changes in physical comfort; 2. changes in sensory input (noises, smells, etc.) or in the ability to sense things; 3. changes in routine. Others' experience may differ. But, some food for thought:

1. Physical discomfort

- Tumor, fever, enlarged spleen, enlarged heart , arthritis ….
- Hungry (often a factor when regular food is changed to senior food, which is often lower in calories and especially in fat)
- Cold or hot (e.g., when AC ramps up in response to hot afternoon temps)

 

2. Other sensory input or changes in sensing ability

- Difficulty seeing in very bright or very dark conditions due to aging eyes
- Changes in hearing
- Bats, raccoons, etc. becoming active in the attic or walls at dusk; school bus going past at a different time
- Newer furniture, carpet, insulation, decking, etc. giving off a stronger smell as the day warms up

 

3. Changes in routine

- Response can be several hours from the missing routine event, either in terms of absolute time (3pm) or relative time (1 hour after supper).

 

- There can be a period of days or weeks or even months of NOT noticing the change; then suddenly the change is noticed.

 

- “Routine event” can be very subtle – can happen when one caregiver retires and no longer comes home at 3pm. “But I’m home all day now!”

 

- Remember that dogs can establish a routine very quickly. Sometimes a desirable (or frightening) thing has happened only once, and the dog thereafter expects it to happen again. This seems to be especially true of dogs who have been in the same home/kennel for a long period of time, when there are few distractions or new things to learn.

[Guest BiancasMom]

I agree with the others…does not sound like CCD. My old Aussie had CCD and he did not have the symptoms you describe. Have they ruled out Cushings? It can cause panting but not usually intermittent panting. I would be curious if she is having intermittent pain as others have noted. Maybe consider an abdominal ultrasound too. Also, that dose of Trazadone is quite low. I give my 73 pound girl 50-75mg every 8-12 hours when fireworks are around. She is not sedate, still able to walk around, eat and go potty.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

Yesterday was the normal way I described her. At 10pm I gave her 1/3 of an ACE to calm her down and she fell asleep. I thought she was done, I went to bed, at 1230 she is up and panting. I go into the living room with her and open the front door and watch her pace from her LR bed, to the front door, to the hallway to me,,then repeat. She did this about 5 times then layed down in the hallway (a standard sleeping spot for her) and sat there in the sphinx position. I passed out and at 130 found her sond aselpp in her bed so I went to bed.

 

This morning,,,same as usual. Right now, sleeping.

 

I gave her the first does of Anipryl but I am going to print everyone's brilliant responses (and I thank you) and show the vet tomorrow. I figure if she is on the Anipryl for a day it can't hurt and if it does turn out to be Cushings,,well then we have again started the correct medicine.

 

BATMOM's response about change in routine made me tell the DW one thing I was afraid to bring up. We brought a cat into the home and this started about a month later. The cat doesn't actually have a run of the house, not while Leia is around. She will be allowed to when Leia leaves (hopefully a year or more from now!). She has her own room off the back of the house so Leia sees her maybe 10 minutes a day at the max. The room is off the back door so she doesn't come into the main part of the house ever. But I told the DW woulnd't it be wier entrie deal is because fof the cat ,,who spend most of the day running around the neighborhood, but most of the evening and all night in the house.

[Batmom]

Could be something else but I suspect you just identified the problem .

 

Is Leia a serious cat-zapper, or do you just not trust her around the cat? If the latter, it could help to put a heavy-duty pet-mesh door between your part of the house and the cat's, so Leia can *see* what is making the noises, causing the scents, etc.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

Could be something else but I suspect you just identified the problem .

 

Is Leia a serious cat-zapper, or do you just not trust her around the cat? If the latter, it could help to put a heavy-duty pet-mesh door between your part of the house and the cat's, so Leia can *see* what is making the noises, causing the scents, etc.

She is not cat safe but she has no kill instinct. Twice she has caught a cat in the backyard and just lies on top of them. ONce one almost caught her eye,,still has the scar.

 

This cat has been living in our house since January. Someone had obviously moved and left her behind. I gave her to the animal control but no one claimed her so after 10 days I took her back because I knew what would happen. Leia has seen her in the house when she slips by us and never really gave much credence to it unless she got too close then Leia gives the warning growl. They have crossed paths in the yard and the cat wants to really make friends with Leia but she will approach Leia to make friends and the chase is on.

 

The thing is the first and second shaking incidences I talked about were before the cat ever moved in here. When they occurred she has no clue where she is and you can tell she can't hear us and she would go outside and not know why then want back in then want back out again. Signs of CCD. But as I said when she had two of those in a row it was time to see the vet.

 

I kept a log of the shaking incidents because she would have them for a while prior to the Traz. They would last anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour then just go away. I started the log at the end of April. After a month of that was when we started the Trazadone and she hasn't had a shaking incident at all and I stopped my log because the shaking had stopped completely and that was 3 weeks ago. . So I think the trazadone has stopped those problems (maybe along with the supplements and the Hills diet) but as soon as they stopped this new panting deal started and is escalating. And that has been for I would say almost 1 month now.

 

It is just so confusing. BTW, Traz will stop the panting if she starts up but I don't give her any after 5 pm because I don't want to OD her with Traz and ACE. I give the ACE at 11pm.

 

Also if anyone asks if there are noises that scare her,,I have one of those rare dogs that a bomb could go off next to her and nothing (and that is good because any day now they will start up,,Happy 4th everyone). She won't even move in an earthquake. I have to lift her head to vacuum under her. She is only afraid of someone stepping on her.

 

But now,,we are also having trouble getting her to eat good food,,she only wants crap.

[tbhounds]

Honestly, I do think your money would be best spent getting a consultation with a neurologist. They might be able to offer a reasonable

course of treatment or can recommend further diagnostics.

A consult should be about the same price as a couple of radiographs at your current clinic. Document and video episodes the best you can so they can see for themselves what you are experiencing.

Doesn't make sense to me to be throwing drugs at her without a firm diagnosis.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

FYI,,yesterday darn near perfect. Started the Anipryl and gave 1/8 of a dose of the ACE at noonish,,,perfect before, after and all night.

Edited June 5, 2014 by FordRacingRon

[MP_the4pack]

My Jade was diagnosed with CCD, and these are not the same symptoms. But we did try anipryl. All it did was make her VERY hungry. Out of control hungry.

 

But she did well on clomipherine (sp?)

[Guest FordRacingRon]

My Jade was diagnosed with CCD, and these are not the same symptoms. But we did try anipryl. All it did was make her VERY hungry. Out of control hungry.

 

But she did well on clomipherine (sp?)

I honestly have my doubts too. When we started this journey she showed all the signs of CCD but now that we have her on Trazadone those signs are gone and we have new symptoms. Well, i will be at he vets in an hour and I am presenting this thread for them to read before we even move on.

[dante2zoe]

When my whippet had CCD, he took Cholodin and we had some success with it. However, he was sundowning and pacing and staring into corners. I also had lights come one before dusk which also helped. Good luck with your girl! It is so very hard to watch them age.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

It's possible that something like sundowner's could exist in dogs, but in my experience, behavioral changes almost always result from one of the big three -- 1. changes in physical comfort; 2. changes in sensory input (noises, smells, etc.) or in the ability to sense things; 3. changes in routine. Others' experience may differ. But, some food for thought:

 

1. Physical discomfort

- Tumor, fever, enlarged spleen, enlarged heart , arthritis ….

- Hungry (often a factor when regular food is changed to senior food, which is often lower in calories and especially in fat)

- Cold or hot (e.g., when AC ramps up in response to hot afternoon temps)

 

we may have a winner. I told the vet her story (man I like this vet) and she said by what I was describing does souneded like a cognitive problme but she agree we needed to do a better thyroid panel to rule that out and xrays to rule out something internal,,,then she had the neurologist to refer me to.

 

But,,,,after the xrays we have another route to go first. The vet said even for a greyhound, she does have a very large,,or dare I say enlarged,,heart. As Batmom says, this could explain the symptoms which would mirror neurological trouble. Everything else looked normal (not even any arthritis) but she really didn't lie the size of the heart.

 

So we are off of all the pills she was taking and the vet put her on xanax stating that would be the least stressful if it is the heart (I say the xrays and that thing is huge) being the problme,,and I am seeing a specialist on Monday. Then after an ultrasound, my girl will be put on medication to control it as we can't fix it. I smell a new thread coming trying to find out what meds to give a greyhound for that.

 

The sad thing (but I know many of you may find this morbid) is I know if this is the case how my dog will probably go to the bridge,,,the good part is that is sort of what I hoped for her when her day comes. The vet say she would just drop in her tracks which is sort of the way I hoped she would go she lights the way for me to join her.

 

However,,,this is now and I am goign to do what I can to get my girl to live as much life as greyt as she can. As a cancer survivor (and some of you may remember from years back a pitbull fighter) I have fight in me and I will fight for her too.

Edited June 6, 2014 by FordRacingRon

[Batmom]

Oh my goodness. Hoping she is comfortable for a long time to come.