Panacur And Diarrhea

[Guest AVOO]

Hi All,

 

I had to take my boy, Max, to the vet several weeks ago because he had blood in his diarrhea, and he was going several times a day. I know Greys have sensitive tummies, and Max has had diarrhea on and off since we got him (6 months ago), but this was the first time that blood was present. The vet gave him a once over and prescribed some meds (Panacur, Tylosin and Metronidazole) while he did some blood work and a fecal analysis to rule out other issues. Long story short, after a month, the only medication that has any effect whatsoever is the Panacur and the vet found nothing in the blood and fecal samples. He is puzzled and so are we. He suspects our boy has IBS, but has no idea why the Panacur would firm up his stools as it's a wormer, and it's supposed to do the opposite. Does anyone have any experience with this??? I know some swear by Tylosin and Metronidazole, but they did not work when taken on their own. PLEASE HELP!

[Time4ANap]

Rocket has had similar bouts of loose stools, bloody stools etc.

 

There have been a few occasions when I tried Panacur just in case there were worms that were undetected, and his stools firmed up. It was like we had a new hound in about 24 hours. Sometimes it fixed the problem for a long time, and sometimes it was only a temporary fix. Panacur seems to soothe the tummy and firm things up. We've seen that happen several times.

 

Our vet doesn't think that Rocket has IBS, but probably has bouts of Stress Colitis triggered by various changes to his routine. We have put him on Tylan and had no more issues.

 

It takes a while to figure out what's going on, but the Panacur having the effect you describe is not out of the ordinary in our experience.

[Guest AVOO]

Rocket has had similar bouts of loose stools, bloody stools etc.

 

There have been a few occasions when I tried Panacur just in case there were worms that were undetected, and his stools firmed up. It was like we had a new hound in about 24 hours. Sometimes it fixed the problem for a long time, and sometimes it was only a temporary fix. Panacur seems to soothe the tummy and firm things up. We've seen that happen several times.

 

Our vet doesn't think that Rocket has IBS, but probably has bouts of Stress Colitis triggered by various changes to his routine. We have put him on Tylan and had no more issues.

 

It takes a while to figure out what's going on, but the Panacur having the effect you describe is not out of the ordinary in our experience.

Thank you for your reply! Does Rocket also have gas? Poor Max has had the most lethal gas since we've gotten him. I've started him on probiotics (just over the counter capsules, twice daily). I haven't taken him back to the vet yet, because it's just getting so expensive, and I am on a student budget

What is Tylan? Does Rocket have to take it every day? The vet suspected that Max may have IBS, but he wanted to give him cortisone to sort it out, and I balked at that. I'm not super keen on giving the dog cortisone.

I'm glad to hear that about the Panacur. The vet did not believe me that it was helping with Max's stools. Glad I'm not crazy!

Rocket has had similar bouts of loose stools, bloody stools etc.

 

There have been a few occasions when I tried Panacur just in case there were worms that were undetected, and his stools firmed up. It was like we had a new hound in about 24 hours. Sometimes it fixed the problem for a long time, and sometimes it was only a temporary fix. Panacur seems to soothe the tummy and firm things up. We've seen that happen several times.

 

Our vet doesn't think that Rocket has IBS, but probably has bouts of Stress Colitis triggered by various changes to his routine. We have put him on Tylan and had no more issues.

 

It takes a while to figure out what's going on, but the Panacur having the effect you describe is not out of the ordinary in our experience.

Also, Rocket is ADORABLE! <3

[JenniferS]

What kind of food is he on? Only having him for 6 months, it may be that you have not found the right food for him yet. There are some limited ingredient diets out there that can help.

[krissn333]

What kind of food is he on? Only having him for 6 months, it may be that you have not found the right food for him yet. There are some limited ingredient diets out there that can help.

This

 

My guess is the food you are feeding is not agreeing with him. It's tough to find the right food!

[Time4ANap]

Thank you for your reply! Does Rocket also have gas? Poor Max has had the most lethal gas since we've gotten him. I've started him on probiotics (just over the counter capsules, twice daily). I haven't taken him back to the vet yet, because it's just getting so expensive, and I am on a student budget

What is Tylan? Does Rocket have to take it every day? The vet suspected that Max may have IBS, but he wanted to give him cortisone to sort it out, and I balked at that. I'm not super keen on giving the dog cortisone.

I'm glad to hear that about the Panacur. The vet did not believe me that it was helping with Max's stools. Glad I'm not crazy!

Also, Rocket is ADORABLE! <3

 

Rocket says thanks!

 

His stomach distress often starts with gas, especially in the wee hours. He usually has tummy squeals and sometimes he will pace and want to go out. When he goes out, he tries to eat grass. i know he's having issues when he turns down food. At this point, I will give him a Gas-X (regular - no acid reducers or additives.) I will also offer him some saltines or ginger snaps depending on which he will take. He will usually take some of those even if turning down kibble. i try to get something in him just to keep his tummy from growling. About 15 minutes after Gas-X, there will be a loud belch. That's fine. The we move on to some runs and bloody, mucousy stools. This is the stomach getting rid of whatever is irritating it according to my vet.

 

Tylan is Tylosin which i see you already have. I have not heard of a vet trying all three of those together. Panacur for the usual 3 doses, Metronidazole for about 10 days, and another round of Panacur is the usual course to start. Tylan seems to be more of a long term solution, In Rocket's case, I give it with both daily meals, and we've not had any issues since. I will also give him one if he is going to have something unusual, like a meaty bone. We just had our first real success when he was boarded for 3 weeks and still had firm stools afterward. It seems like he usually gets tummy issues after boarding.

 

One thing we learned with Rocket is that all of the usual suggestions like probiotics, yogurt, and pumpkin make him worse. They do not help him. it is important to only make one change in diet at a time, otherwise you won't know what actually works. Giving a bland diet of boiled ground beef or chicken and overcooked rice or pasta along with those meds will allow the tummy to heal. I use Evanger's Canned Organic Chicken along with very mushy rice when feeding bland diets. It;s less work and seems to work well for him. Once the bloody stools stop and things firm up a little, i slowly transition back to kibble about 1/4 cup at a time, slowly reducing the bland food.

 

What food are you using?You also need to be aware that some treats will cause bigger issues than food. You need to change one thing at a time in order to figure out what the actual cause is.

 

We have had the best luck with 2 foods, Precise Foundation Chicken Meal and Rice, and Precise Senior Kibble. I'm not sure if you can get those in Canada. Both are very bland and very digestible, but as everyone here will attest to, it;s just trial and error until you find what works for your hound. Many people also have great success with IAMS green bag when nothing else works. If it works, don't knock it . There is nothing wrong with feeding your dog what works for him, even if some people think it;s a lesser food than other brands. This is all about finding what works best for your hound and keeps you out of the vet's office.

 

Sorry to write a book, but these are the things that have worked for us and I wanted to make sure i included all of it.

 

Hope Max is feeling better soon.

 

Edited to add - please forgive typos - it's been a long day.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Time4ANap

[KF_in_Georgia]

Try keeping a record of everything Max is eating--and I mean everything--including the time he eats it. And also note poop patterns (so much fun) and every med or supplement he takes. I plotted things out on a calendar the summer my angel Sam was having gastric trouble. We'd put him on metronidazole for 10-14 days, Sam would be fine, he'd finish his meds, and the diarrhea would return within four days. My vet looked at the calendar and put Sam on a maintenance dose of metronidazole (half a pill, every other day); the diarrhea stopped. (It came back once a month, like clockwork, the day Sam took his Heartgard Plus, so we changed his heartworm meds, too.)

 

For now, cut out all the add-ons: no dairy (some dogs are lactose intolerant), no pumpkin, use his regular kibble as a treat (if I do "happy voice", my dogs think everything is a treat). Make sure Max gets frequent meals, including a little something at bedtime; lots of dogs will have gas and other trouble overnight if their stomachs are empty. A quarter-cup of kibble at bedtime might make a big difference (if you're worried about him getting too many calories, just cut back at dinner). If you haven't seen any benefit from the probiotics, you might stop them. And if he's been having trouble on his bland diet, he might have a problem with rice (not unheard of); try pasta or potatoes instead. (Potatoes might be safer. Some dogs don't do well on wheat.)

 

One bland food dogs often do well with is oatmeal. I'd cook it in the microwave, then refrigerate it; I'd pull it out of the fridge at mealtimes--maybe heat it some, although my dogs will eat it cold. I could cook up a day's worth before bedtime, refrigerate it, then dish it out by the spoonful the next day. I usually served it plain, but sometimes I'd put in a spoonful of Manuka honey (which is known to have healing properties); I'd add it while the oatmeal was still warm.

[Guest AVOO]

Thanks, everyone! You all have been so helpful! Max is currently on President's Choice Nutrition First. It's a corn, soy and wheat free food. The protein source is lamb. It's not top of the line, but we did quite a bit of research, and it's not a bad food. BUT if it doesn't agree with him, then it's a bad food.

 

He's only been on the probiotics for 3 days, and I read that it could take up to a month for them to take effect. Should I continue?

 

I've cut out the yogurt (just this a.m.), and I'm just mixing the probiotics in water and pouring them over his kibble. There are also added probiotics in his food. His poo was pretty bad this a.m.

 

This is the second food we've tried. He came to us on Nutro limited ingredient diet, and that did not work for him.

 

I've heard about Iams, and many swear by the amount of beet pulp that's in it. I can buy beet pulp supplements at a feed store, and maybe I could add that to his regimen?

 

I will start keeping a log of his eating/pooping habits. We're pretty strict about treats -- he only gets freeze-dried liver or kibble for treats USUALLY, but you know how tempting those hound faces can be.

 

He LOVES oatmeal, so I can definitely add that to his food.

 

Anyone in Canada feed a food that they love? I'm feeling pretty desperate

[KF_in_Georgia]

I just remembered something: I know of a dog that's deathly allergic to an ingredient in canine toothpaste (she wound up in the ER after her first toothbrushing in her new home--scared her mom half to death). The dog now gets her teeth brushed with plain baking soda. (And I think there's an IBD dog on Greytalk who can't tolerate the flavoring in toothpaste or heartworm meds without having an IBD flare-up.) So toothpaste could conceivably be something Max doesn't tolerate well; at least add toothpaste to your tracking for him.

[krissn333]

I'd try a different protein source. I've had 9 dogs in my life and only ONE can eat lamb. The rest have horrible diarrhea and ridiculous gas.

[krissn333]

Also make sure you read labels carefully. There are several foods out there that are called "bison formula" or "chicken formula" and while they WILL have bison or chicken, there will also be lamb somewhere in the ingredients. Sneaky.

[greytpups]

I've only skim read the replies, but bloody diarrhea concerns me. I'm assuming your pup came from a US track. We adopted Katie from Arkansas and she was wormed monthly while at the breeders farm. However, she still picked up hook worms, albeit Arkansas is the hook worm capital of the world which is I why I wonder which state he raced in

 

His symptoms sound very much like Katie's initially and our vet had not seen a case of hooks in over 30 years. she got really sick and we ended up at OVC. The problem with hooks is that they don't always appear in fecal samples. The adults die off which allows the younguns to be more active (very simplified version), so you made need to take 3 fecal exams in one week for them to show up. We've been treating our pups monthly since September to make sure they all get killed even though none have symptoms. Our vet said it's better to over treat rather than under treat hook worms.

 

I'm not diagnosing here, just relating what we went through and maybe this might be something to check again.

 

We feed "Now Fresh", a strictly Canadian product (hopefully), since I don't even trust US manufacturers with all of the recalls. Orijen and Acana are also 2 other Canadian manufactured kibble.

 

There was a really interesting thread recently about probiotics, and one person recommended yogurt over OTC probiotics and explained the differences. You should be able to do a search for probiotics on GT for more information.

 

I agree that it can take a long time to find a product which suits your pup. The trick is to narrow down what works best by not adding anything to his food, then slowly add one at a time to see if something triggers the diarrhea or makes it worse. Has your vet suggested a bland diet until his GI tract settles. I wonder why your vet is not concerned about bloody diarrhea

Edited March 26, 2014 by greytpups

[Guest AVOO]

I've only skim read the replies, but bloody diarrhea concerns me. I'm assuming your pup came from a US track. We adopted Katie from Arkansas and she was wormed monthly while at the breeders farm. However, she still picked up hook worms, albeit Arkansas is the hook worm capital of the world which is I why I wonder which state he raced in

 

His symptoms sound very much like Katie's initially and our vet had not seen a case of hooks in over 30 years. she got really sick and we ended up at OVC. The problem with hooks is that they don't always appear in fecal samples. The adults die off which allows the younguns to be more active (very simplified version), so you made need to take 3 fecal exams in one week for them to show up. We've been treating our pups monthly since September to make sure they all get killed even though none have symptoms. Our vet said it's better to over treat rather than under treat hook worms.

 

I'm not diagnosing here, just relating what we went through and maybe this might be something to check again.

 

We feed "Now Fresh", a strictly Canadian product (hopefully), since I don't even trust US manufacturers with all of the recalls. Orijen and Acana are also 2 other Canadian manufactured kibble.

 

There was a really interesting thread recently about probiotics, and one person recommended yogurt over OTC probiotics and explained the differences. You should be able to do a search for probiotics on GT for more information.

 

I agree that it can take a long time to find a product which suits your pup. The trick is to narrow down what works best by not adding anything to his food, then slowly add one at a time to see if something triggers the diarrhea or makes it worse. Has your vet suggested a bland diet until his GI tract settles. I wonder why your vet is not concerned about bloody diarrhea

Thank you for your detailed response. The blood in Max's diarrhea has subsided (we only saw it once), and I think the vet concluded that it was due to the irritation of his bowel. Max ran in West Virginia, but I spoke with the adoption agency (Needle Nose), and they haven't had any problems with other dogs they've brought up from this area. I'm hesitant to take him back to the vet, because the vet doesn't seem to have a clue about what might be going on, and his tests are getting expensive :-/ He goes to Kingston Road Animal Hospital, which was recommended on this forum.

 

Where do you get "Now Fresh?" I haven't seen that one, though I've seen Orijen and Acana. Also, we've toyed with the idea of feeding Fromm.

 

Max seemed to do better on kefir than he did on yogurt, but he goes through it so quickly and kefir is expensive, so we switched him back when we ran out. I know I do better on kefir than I do on yogurt.

[RedHead]

 

Max is currently on President's Choice Nutrition First. It's a corn, soy and wheat free food. The protein source is lamb

I agree, I would try some new foods first. I really like the new PC dog food and it is great value for the price. I buy the Salmon and Potato (grain free....the one with the black lab on the package) which has beet pulp already added. The lamb formula you are using doesn't have the beet pulp. Also, lamb tends to cause stomach issues with a lot of dogs. So....you may want to try out the other PC formula...my sensitive guy does just fine on that (I don't feed it solely as I do mostly homemade, but it still seems to work better than most other foods I have tried).

Edited April 1, 2014 by RedHead

[Guest AVOO]

I agree, I would try some new foods first. I really like the new PC dog food and it is great value for the price. I buy the Salmon and Potato (grain free....the one with the black lab on the package) which has beet pulp already added. The lamb formula you are using doesn't have the beet pulp. Also, lamb tends to cause stomach issues with a lot of dogs. So....you may want to try out the other PC formula...my sensitive guy does just fine on that (I don't feed it solely as I do mostly homemade, but it still seems to work better than most other foods I have tried).

Thank you for your reply! I think that's a fantastic idea. I was starting to feel a bit overwhelmed with all of the possibilities, but changing his food to just a different flavour seems somehow more manageable at this stage. Might I ask what homemade food you give? We tried Max on a stew when he arrived, but it proved too rich and too soon for his tummy, so we backed off. We'd like to feed him raw or some kind of real food for at least one meal a day if possible, but this stomach business has spooked us. Still, I can't help but think real food might be the answer to the stomach problems

[RedHead]

 

Might I ask what homemade food you give?

Well it can sometimes vary, but I order a ground mix from Raw for Pets (http://www.rawforpets.net/) or sometimes some of the Barrie area suppliers. I usually mix these half and half with the PC salmon and potato kibble. Dinner is the same or else meaty bones and/or cooked food, but like I said it can vary. They get something different basically every day. If you do a simple white rice and boiled chicken mixture (or I sometimes boil sweet potato and chicken), you could see how that works as it is quite bland. It is hard to do diet switches sometimes if their system and gut bacteria is out of whack. They sometimes react totally different to the same foods when things have settled down and their system can better handle it.

[cleptogrey]

while you are figuring out what agrees w/ him why not feed boiled white rice and boiled either ground beef or another ground protein. this way his gut will settle down. it sounds like he may need another round of meds, call your vet. but do remove kibbles, start fresh and then once his stools look good introduce a kibble 1/4 c at a time. you will be going thru a lot of rice, but it's worth while approaching this slowly.

 

dogs pick up lots of parasites, not necessarily worms sniffing around. it's pretty normal for some dogs- sounds like your dog has felix's tender gut. our other dog, annie, has a cast iron gut- only once did she pick up a highly contagious stomach bug.