Dx Ideas, Vet & I Are Open To Suggestions: Gi Issues, Weight

[DunesMom]

Kipper's become a conundrum. The horrible corns that we hull are not the issue now.

 

He's got food allergies and we did a full-blown food challenge his first year to isolate the allergies.

(most grains including rice, beef, mild intolerance for chicken but not duck or turkey, fish no allergies but poor coat and weight, pork great coat and weight, duck great coat and weight, turkey good coat and weight).

 

For five years, all was fine except he's an extreme picky eater. His hero was the famous Breakfast with Bill. And veggies of any type -- even potatoes -- are disgusting in his opinion, in any form (Just try offering those sweet-potato or pumpkin treats every other dog loves, I dare you. He'll spit it in your face and give you the stink eye.)

 

As my vet said, he's proof that some dogs really would starve themselves, because none of the usual tricks work (other dogs in the house, set meal times only, canned food, freshly cooked food, raw food, add-ins, etc). We get by mostly by switching to one of the other non-allergic foods when he gets bored and stops eating, tracking his volume and calories on a chart weekly, and using a lot of add-ins like ground or slow-cooked pork or duck or canned pork or duck. That worked until recently.

 

Over the past six months, this has happened:

 

He's lost 8 pounds. He started out 2 less than we'd have liked, but that was his normal for nearly five years.

He's had a LOT of runny poop. Not diarrhea -- no urgency and straining -- just constant pudding. Not a huge volume. No blood. No evidence of any parasites or worms in all the tests. Sometimes mucous, mostly not. Just pudding about 60% of the time.

His stomach makes a LOT of noise about every 2-3 days, and he won't eat anything, not even his favorite treats reserved solely for giving medicine.

On the days his stomach is noisy, he won't eat and eats grass.

On the days his stomach isn't noisy, he eats like "normal" for him -- like a horse every fourth or fifth day and not at all the others, or only a few bites. (Not eating/refusing even treats some days has always been normal for him, to be clear. He'll usually take the treats and hide them in his blankies for later; "bed snacks," we call them.)

Sometimes on the noisy/grass-eating days, he vomits grass and clear fluid, but not often. Maybe once every 2-3 weeks.

He acts normal on all but the worst noisy-stomach/grass-eating days. Most days, even if he's eating grass and refusing to eat, he's asking for the beach and dancing around trying to get us to notice him while we work. He doesn't act sick except about once every two weeks, and even then, he still begs and plays at the beach.

 

What we've tried:

• Bloodwork was normal, but we're doing it again tomorrow since it's been six weeks and we're grasping at straws.

• Flagyl just in case, despite negative fecals. No change.
• Antibiotics (not for the GI, but they seem to help his inflamed front corn, leading us to suspect a foreign body in it, but that may or may not be related to this). We used cephalexin, which does not seem to upset his stomach (he's the same on it as off it, GIT-wise; no worse or better either way, and in the past it never upset his stomach).
• We moved him back to the last kibble that worked a year ago (high-end turkey and sweet potato grain-free). No change.
• We went back to what seemed to keep weight on him and give him his best coat, which was canned pork (Merrick). He stopped eating it. So we tried fresh pork and cooked it for him. Worked for a few days, then...No change. Half the time he won't eat, then suddenly it's the best thing he's ever seen cross his bowl. Same recurring GI symptoms, not seeming to be related to food type (as in, days he eats pork might be fine or followed by runny poop or gurgling, just like everything else we feed him or the days when he doesn't eat at all).
• His teeth were cleaned and had no problems 10 months ago, and the vet can't see any cracks or other issues that would cause him to refuse food, let alone soft ground meat.
• A veterinary nutritionist suggested that we re-do the food challenge because his allergies may have changed over time and she suspects this is allergic. We tried cooking 80% lean beef burger for him again, and this time he did not have an allergic reaction (five years later). But, no change to GI symptoms -- and half the time he won't eat it.
• We have not tried rice again since that was his biggest trigger five years ago.
• The vet and vet nutritionist both do not want us to try raw for various reasons (not because they're against raw). This is a relief, since I can't even get him to eat raw turkey necks -- I have to sear them first, or he won't touch them. Even then, half the time he won't touch them.

 

We considered stress-related IBS, but he's had no new or ongoing stressors the past six months and exhibits no behavior changes or stress behaviors or stereotypies. Then again, he's always been a bit of a worrier -- the dog with the wrinkled forehead, a bit shy of new things. He was very, very shy when we first got him and people who knew him then can't believe he's the same dog, he's now so curious and exploratory and happy.

 

He acts like himself -- if the corns have recently been hulled, he's as peppy and happy as always, begging for us to throw the ball. If the corns are bad, he still begs to go to the beach so he can just stand in the water.

 

 

Any ideas?

Should we just try prednisone as someone else suggested?

Keep searching for a food cause?

Try Panacur even though we have had three negative fecals?

 

I'm at wit's end for the poor hound. He doesn't deserve to have GI issues all the time!

 

Thanks for any ideas. Sorry it's so long.

 

 

[MaryJane]

What is the B12 and folate levels? might point to absorption problems (IBD)

 

Have you added probiotics to his food? repopulate the good bacteria in the GI tract.

 

Has he had an ultrasound done? Rue out anything else

 

Has the stool been tested for "nasty bacteria"?

[tbhounds]

Sounds like an IBD dog. I would run specific blood work along with a basic chemistry. Bile acids, TLI with cobalamin are two I would run. I would also perform radiographs and +/- an abdominal ultrasound. Also, to cover your bases you should de-worm your hound using a board spectrum de-wormer like panacur.

[krissn333]

Have you tried Pepcid?

 

Have you tested for chronic pancreatitis? In most cases I'd think at some point he would get REALLY bad, but, I've heard of some who have a low grade of it, where basically they eat, but that inflames the pancreas just enough to where they dont want to eat for a few days. The not eating helps the pancreas calm just enough to make them feel like eating again, only to have it hurt again. The first day he refuses food after eating a whole bunch, wouldn't hurt to run a PCL. It's a long shot but the test is not expensive.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Is he getting any dairy--like yogurt for good intestinal bacteria? If so, can you try eliminating it? I've suddenly learned that "lactose intolerant" can mean a happy, bouncy dog that lurves cheese and throws up everywhere. (Just one episode, but I've learned my lesson.) Between the bouts of vomiting were moments of eating all the grass he could reach. And apparently lactose intolerance is more common in dogs than it is in people. (This is my new boy, Clem.)

 

And my angel Sam--he of the chronic soft poop (I used to follow him with a paper plate so I could clean up after him)--Sam wound up on a maintenance dose of flagyl because every time we stopped the flagyl the soft poop came back within four days. (All his fecal exams were negative. But two weeks of flagyl meant less runny poo; four days without flagyl meant a blow-out.) Sam got half a pill every other day and actually wound up with good, formed poop.

 

Also, we've gone to a topical heartworm preventative around here after repeated, predictable outbreaks of soft poop and diarrhea at the first of every month. It wasn't major, long-lasting trouble, but it was bad enough that I didn't give the meds on rainy days because I didn't want all of us standing around in the rain. Any source of even short-term diarrhea that I could eliminate was worth the effort. The problem with the Heartgard Plus was the flavoring ingredient--not the ivermectin itself. (These days, Advantage Multi--a topical.)

 

Finally, if you're brushing Kipper's teeth with a commercial toothpaste, can you change over to baking soda? Sounds silly, I know, but I'm growing suspicious of ingredients added to make things more palatable to dogs. Clem's former foster sister was allergic to canine toothpaste--to the point of winding up in the ER--and little things that you've used all along might have been little irritants all along. (Allergic girl is safely on baking soda now.) There's also a Greytalker whose dog's IBD can be triggered by toothbrushing with a commercial dog toothpaste.

 

Maybe try making a list of all the little common things--toothpaste, heartworm meds--and see if there's a common ingredient in there that your vet might test for...

[macoduck]

For noisy tummies we use Gas-X here.

I understand the allergy issue, but could you try some plain ordinary kibble like Iams just to see if the other stuff you've tried was too rich?

[greytpups]

Katie gets a gurgly stomach a lot. We use Pepcid. She will also vomit bile if she doesn't get a bit of food prior to bedtime. Not sure if this will help though since his medical problems seem more serious.

[FiveRoooooers]

For noisy tummies we use Gas-X here.

I understand the allergy issue, but could you try some plain ordinary kibble like Iams just to see if the other stuff you've tried was too rich?

This is what I was going to suggest. Some dogs do just fine on the green bag! I would also suggest talking with your vet about adding Tylan powder for the runny poo, although it may not be necessary if the green bag works for Kipper. (that is a great name!).

[Hubcitypam]

I have been the original cheerleader for Iams for 10+ years. It fixed Rex and he never had runs, bloody or mucus coated poop ever again, but neither green or red bag will work for you.

Rex had gurglely tummy that would wake me up at night. I know it sounds too simple and probably redneck but if I could get him to eat a few bites of anything that really tempted him he'd go on to eat canned then kibble. I just had to "prime his pump" so to speak. Before I found Iams I spent a lot of nights on the futon with him trying to decode what tempted him that day - freeze dried liver was a big hit but other nights he wanted cheese, turkey breast, roast beef and on and on. I spent quite a while centering my meals around using up things he wouldn't use up in time. Sardines (1 or 2) worked as did a spoonful or two of tuna. Dogs with intestinal problems sometimes do well on fish. I know it sounds unscientific, but it was just getting that first bite or two of something he REALLY liked into him.

[DunesMom]

What is the B12 and folate levels? might point to absorption problems (IBD)

 

Have you added probiotics to his food? repopulate the good bacteria in the GI tract.

 

Has he had an ultrasound done? Rue out anything else

 

Has the stool been tested for "nasty bacteria"?

 

B12 and folate were normal last time, but on the "end of normal," so we're testing again tomorrow.

 

We have tried probiotics but it's been hit or miss, since he won't eat much and definitely won't eat any powder sprinkled on anything. This is a dog who won't eat pill pockets or deli meat or most canned dog foods (ok, all) or even beef stew at grammy's, even before all this started.

I think I need a capsule form I can poke down his throat. Know of any?

 

No ultrasound (yet). Abdominal x-rays were normal (forgot those on the list).

 

Yes for bacteria testing -- that was negative, also.

 

Sounds like an IBD dog. I would run specific blood work along with a basic chemistry. Bile acids, TLI with cobalamin are two I would run. I would also perform radiographs and +/- an abdominal ultrasound. Also, to cover your bases you should de-worm your hound using a board spectrum de-wormer like panacur.

 

Thanks! I'll ask for these. We are so hoping he's not IBD, but vet has that as a possible dx.

 

Have you tried Pepcid?

 

Have you tested for chronic pancreatitis? In most cases I'd think at some point he would get REALLY bad, but, I've heard of some who have a low grade of it, where basically they eat, but that inflames the pancreas just enough to where they dont want to eat for a few days. The not eating helps the pancreas calm just enough to make them feel like eating again, only to have it hurt again. The first day he refuses food after eating a whole bunch, wouldn't hurt to run a PCL. It's a long shot but the test is not expensive.

 

Tried Pepcid and GasX, they sort of help a little bit but not much -- calms it down after 30 minutes, then it's back 30 minutes after that.

 

For some reason, vet didn't think it was chronic pancreatitis (can't recall why), but since he's been bad today, I'll add that to tomorrow's testing.

[DunesMom]

Is he getting any dairy--like yogurt for good intestinal bacteria? If so, can you try eliminating it? I've suddenly learned that "lactose intolerant" can mean a happy, bouncy dog that lurves cheese and throws up everywhere. (Just one episode, but I've learned my lesson.) Between the bouts of vomiting were moments of eating all the grass he could reach. And apparently lactose intolerance is more common in dogs than it is in people. (This is my new boy, Clem.)

 

And my angel Sam--he of the chronic soft poop (I used to follow him with a paper plate so I could clean up after him)--Sam wound up on a maintenance dose of flagyl because every time we stopped the flagyl the soft poop came back within four days. (All his fecal exams were negative. But two weeks of flagyl meant less runny poo; four days without flagyl meant a blow-out.) Sam got half a pill every other day and actually wound up with good, formed poop.

 

Also, we've gone to a topical heartworm preventative around here after repeated, predictable outbreaks of soft poop and diarrhea at the first of every month. It wasn't major, long-lasting trouble, but it was bad enough that I didn't give the meds on rainy days because I didn't want all of us standing around in the rain. Any source of even short-term diarrhea that I could eliminate was worth the effort. The problem with the Heartgard Plus was the flavoring ingredient--not the ivermectin itself. (These days, Advantage Multi--a topical.)

 

Finally, if you're brushing Kipper's teeth with a commercial toothpaste, can you change over to baking soda? Sounds silly, I know, but I'm growing suspicious of ingredients added to make things more palatable to dogs. Clem's former foster sister was allergic to canine toothpaste--to the point of winding up in the ER--and little things that you've used all along might have been little irritants all along. (Allergic girl is safely on baking soda now.) There's also a Greytalker whose dog's IBD can be triggered by toothbrushing with a commercial dog toothpaste.

 

Maybe try making a list of all the little common things--toothpaste, heartworm meds--and see if there's a common ingredient in there that your vet might test for...

 

He doesn't really get dairy, definitely not coinciding with these issues. He had no dairy issues in the past, and now he won't eat anything but goat cheese, so I save that for emergencies (like, if I have to go out of town and someone else needs to give him meds). Thus, he doesn't get dairy because I pill him. I think he'd happily drink cream if I offered, though.

 

Sam's flagyl case sounds like an idea worth trying. So does the paper plate.

 

This is what I was going to suggest. Some dogs do just fine on the green bag! I would also suggest talking with your vet about adding Tylan powder for the runny poo, although it may not be necessary if the green bag works for Kipper. (that is a great name!).

 

Sadly, the green bag (or the red) is bad news with his allergies. He was on the green bag in adoption and had a dry, dandruffy, thin coat with red-rimmed eyes and pink skin, which is how we ended up doing a food trial and discovering that he was allergic to rice and grains and some meats. I have wondered if I couldn't find a magic kibble...but we've tried so many the past five years, it's really amazing. Maybe I will go back to a different one that worked, especially if he's IBD and I'm changing foods again.

 

I have been the original cheerleader for Iams for 10+ years. It fixed Rex and he never had runs, bloody or mucus coated poop ever again, but neither green or red bag will work for you.

 

Rex had gurglely tummy that would wake me up at night. I know it sounds too simple and probably redneck but if I could get him to eat a few bites of anything that really tempted him he'd go on to eat canned then kibble. I just had to "prime his pump" so to speak. Before I found Iams I spent a lot of nights on the futon with him trying to decode what tempted him that day - freeze dried liver was a big hit but other nights he wanted cheese, turkey breast, roast beef and on and on. I spent quite a while centering my meals around using up things he wouldn't use up in time. Sardines (1 or 2) worked as did a spoonful or two of tuna. Dogs with intestinal problems sometimes do well on fish. I know it sounds unscientific, but it was just getting that first bite or two of something he REALLY liked into him.

 

THAT is exactly what my life is like now! If I can get him to eat something, anything, then suddenly he realizes that the stuff he's refusing in his bowl is actually pretty tasty ground meat and chunks of meat, so perhaps he'll have a few bites, then a few more...

 

I haven't tried the sardines yet but I have a ton of them for DH. Kip doesn't do well on salmon or "ocean white fish meal" (WTH is that?), not allergic but dry skin and coat. He won't eat salmon oil, and he's been refusing tuna in any form for a few months now, though he used to love it.

 

It sounds like he might be IBD. I was so, so hoping that would not be the case. Poor little hound.

 

On a bright note, we went to the park and he ran like a goofy happy normal hound with a limp, then came home and refused all food until I tempted him with a SARDINE (THANKS!), which led to that moment of "hey...this burger stuff in here isn't so bad...".

[inugrey]

I would highly recommend you follow tbhounds recommendations, but go to an internal medicine specialist rather than your general practice vet.

[greysmom]

Tylan was going to be my suggestion as well. Hopper is on it for a malabsorption issue and gets 1/4 teaspoon with every meal. Along with a probiotic.

 

Here's the other part of my story: My puppy (now 2 1/2 years old!) has never been a good eater. It was a struggle and very stressful for me every single meal to get her to eat, even when she was a 11 week old puppy. We tried special foods, appetite stimulants, elimination diets, did bloodwork out the wazoo - to no avail. She was healthy and happy, she just didn't care about food one way or another. Half the time she doesn't even take a treat when their offered.

 

So, I decided I was not going to stress about it anymore. She could eat, or she could not, and I wasn't going to be upset. After allowing her to choose when she would eat, it's come down to her eating dinner - but after everyone else when it's calmer - and a second dinner about 20 minutes before bedtime. We were only feeding her once a day, but she would get horrible tummy gurgles and squeaks the next morning and wouldn't eat at all. Often this would be accompanied by bile barfs, looser poops and an upset stomach, until I could get some sort of food into her. So I began offering her nearly her normal amount of food later at night. This has semed to solve our problems. She rarely has tummy gurgles anymore, and she seems if not eager, at least able to eat on this schedule.

 

She just isn't hungry at all in the morning. But now, with this feeding schedule, we don't have morning gurgles and she's pretty much eating both her meals every day. She's holding her weight, she has her normal amount of energy, she has regular potty habits and good poops, she plays like normal. She just eats weird.

 

I'm just throwing this out there because sometimes we get locked into dogs eating at "mealtimes" and only then, when they aren't really hungry. In Lilly's case, she sems to be sort of nauseus in the mornings and she gets better later in the day. She would do well being free fed, but with four other dogs, that's not an option.

[FiveRoooooers]

Something else you can try for the gurgly tummy is Manuka honey, all the health food stores carry it and some of the bigger box stores have it now too. Give a teaspoon before a meal and see if that helps.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Will Kipper eat oatmeal? Or is that on his allergic-to list? If he'll eat it, you can put the manuka honey in it while the oatmeal is warm, then let it cool down enough to be safe to eat. When Clem was sick week before last, I'd cook oatmeal last thing at night, then dish it out in the morning (both dogs liked it), make another batch and set it aside to cool for lunch, and keep doing that all day. (The vet had said to give small meals frequently.)

 

I suppose it's too much to hope that Kipper would eat his namesake... (I saw a movie the other night with kids excited about kippers for breakfast...)

[DunesMom]

Manuka honey...never heard of it, but I will be at Sprouts tomorrow.

 

I have no idea on oatmeal. We never tested it. But it's worth a shot.

 

He loves kippers, by the way.