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Thank you Alicia - what you are describing is exactly what we have been going through. That it is normal / typical makes me feel better.

 

I also worry about her remaining front leg. We are only going to the backyard to potty, but it seems like it takes more effort for her to get around.

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Front leg amps are harder and they do have to work their muscles in a very different way than before. She's just adjusting to what that is now. Remember, too, she has to recover from an *major* surgery. That's not easy on anybody. A "blah" period where all she wants to do is sleep is very normal. Her body needs the time. Make sure she eats and drinks adequately, and that her eliminations are normal, and let her sleep as she wants.

 

I'm so sorry Roxy is also joining this Club. {{{hugs}}} They do adjust, over time, and will become quite self-sufficient - faster and more thoroughly than you would imagine. Glad she can be part of the study!

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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As a_daer said.....2-3 weeks seems to be the magic point. My Diamond was very anxious the first two weeks, and I too didn't know if it was pain or pain meds. But once we were off all pain meds she bounced back fairly quickly. She did not however get back her full strength to be able to do the walks we used to do. But........she was 12 when we did the amp. She actually did very well on 3 legs for an old lady, even chasing deer. She just couldn't go the distance. But she was very happy for 6 mos before OS raised it's ugly head again and struck at back leg. (dammit)

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Jaynies Mom, I went through the same thing with Sadie. But add in not eating, you are lucky you don't have that issue. She is almost two months post amp and she is romping around in the yard now. Hopefully Jaynie will get there too. She also seems to be very hard on her front leg. I notice her head and front end really bounce and use a lot of energy to walk. Her muscles in her legs and hock have pumped up from her using them differently. She is almost nine yrs old.. She goes for her third chemo tomorrow. Then she won't eat for a few days. No matter what pill or food we give her. And I am waiting for the University of Penn to have their results to see if she can get into a vaccine study there.

 

Second thing, it seems to me I am hearing osteo coming back the second time in rear legs or legs in general. Does it come back in the bones again, not so much in the lungs...I guess it spreads to the lungs from the cancer in the bone? Or can it just show up in the lungs without any bone cancer lesion? I think I just confused myself.

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Guest fastcasper

OS can just show up in the lungs. Casper was a front amp, did 6 rounds of Carbo, had a 3 week grace period and went for chest rads and they found mets in his lungs. So, it can bypass going to another bone in the body. His neck muscles got really developed from it helping him get around. I don't think front amp can ever go the distance they did pre-amp. I may be wrong but Casper went about half the distance. I think there is a fine line between not enough exercise and too much. It take a lot more effort to get around (except when chasing bunnies). :)

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Heather, I can't believe you are having to cope with osteo for Roxy now too in addition to Seka. If you do decide to go with amp for Roxy, feel free to ask any questions. We may not always have answers, but we can offer our experiences!

 

Mary, I'm glad things are continuing in the right direction with Jaynie! The front-leg-amp hop does take a while to get used to, and Jaynie is still in recovery phase, so she won't be back to her full self just yet.

 

I do think age and overall physicality plays into long-term activity levels as well. In contrast to some, Twiggy has been far more active as a tripod than she was as a 4-legged dog. She was always a very active greyhound, but I didn't give her complete discretion over her activity level until post-amp, and I learned just how motivated and enthusiastic she was. This entailed (until recently) up to 3-hour walks after work when the weather was nice (and I was still cutting her short, but I just couldn't take more than that), and long days at the beach out-running and out-playing every other dog there. Twiggy was also capable of running 37 mph just 2 months post-amp (clocked on radar!). Of course, she was young and had no other health issues, that was to her advantage.

 

Whether front-leg or hind-leg amps have a harder time I think is in the eye of the beholder. It seems to me that those with a front-leg amp think they have an easier time, and those with a hind leg amp think they have an easier time (I'm guilty of this line of thought as well!). I think that means that neither one is harder on the dog, and they all tend to adapt well in their own way.

 

As Kim indicated, osteo is devious, and while it is said to come back preferentially to the lungs, it also can strike another leg (or any bone, really). Those facts mean none of us can ever really rest when our pups are dealing with this because there is just no way to predict what is coming next.

Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties

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Second thing, it seems to me I am hearing osteo coming back the second time in rear legs or legs in general. Does it come back in the bones again, not so much in the lungs...I guess it spreads to the lungs from the cancer in the bone? Or can it just show up in the lungs without any bone cancer lesion? I think I just confused myself.

 

This is something I didn't understand at first either. I had to look it up. Osteosarcoma comes in the form of both osteolytic lesions (tumors that basically eat through the bone) and malignant cells/tumors in other systems of the body. In my copious amounts of research, I read that in 90-95% of osteo dogs, there has already been metastases (spread of cancer) to the lungs by the time the dog is diagnosed. This means that in most cases, even if the x-rays look clean, the dog already has microscopic mets in its lungs by the time the owner notices any symptoms or lameness, limping, etc. Lungs are the most common place for the cancer to spread. After metastases has begun, the disease is fast progressing. It can then spread to other systems of the body, including other limbs.

Edited by a_daerr
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Jaynie seems perkier today, which makes me very happy, but I do have a question:

 

Her back left leg shakes a lot when she stands, even if she hasn't been walking much. Is this something I need to worry about, or is this just part of her overall balance adjustment?

 

I do have the feeling that sometimes when she is standing, she shifts weight back a bit to take some work away from the front leg.

 

Thank you!

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Henry had A LOT of shakiness at first. In fact, he was so shaky, he started having problems with the hardwood floor for the first time in his life. It took some time for the remaining back leg to get stronger, but it did go away with regular exercise and a maximum strength joint supplement. The other big thing I later figured out keep his nails as short as possible. He now shifts his hips and holds his back leg differently (sort of towards the middle). It looks awkward, but I suppose that helps him keep balanced.

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Jaynie's blood results from last week are in - does anyone see anything concerning here? Her Creatinine is only a few points higher than last October, and has been in this range for a couple of years, so while it is high, it is stable. The oncologist has this report as well. Note the reference ranges are quite different from those in the US:

 

JaynieBlood20140403.jpg

 

As a lay person, I am concerned about all the other values that are outside of normal range, or just squeak into the normal range.

 

Thank you!

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Looks like gh bloods too me. Interesting looking at Candian reference ranges. One thing you might want to do is check her urine concentration (urine specific gravity)-- it's best to check her first a.m. sample (it will be the most concentrated in the am after not drinking all night)----it will help determine renal function. Hugs to your baby!

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Thank you for the suggestion, I took a first-catch sample in this morning when Jaynie had her stitches out. Surgeon said the results might not be accurate yet because she was on fluids for about a week, stopped last Wednesday. They will run it but suggested re-running in in 2 - 3 weeks. I don't know how results might be affected by the chemo drugs though, so I am glad to have this done anyway - think the last time might have been in October of 2013.

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Every time. I had to wait until they did a spot check before leaving him for the day for his chemo to make sure he was good to go. No idea why it would only be done sporadically.

Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

52592535884_69debcd9b4.jpgsiggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly

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That's what I was expecting. Because Jaynie has kidney issues he is also doing a renal panel. Maybe I misunderstood and he will do the blood counts every time but not the renal panel. I heard it as one thing when we talked but perhaps I misunderstood. I will confirm when we go in next week.

 

Thank you - your post helped clarify my thinking.

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Follow-on question - did your oncologists do bloodwork only right before chemo or did they also do it in between?

 

Reason I ask is that in reading about this, there is apparently something called the nadir - the time when the white blood cell counts, and IIRC neutrophils in particular are at their lowest. As I understand it, the exact timing per dog will vary but there are typical ranges based on the chemo drug used - so about a week after chemo for Doxorubicin, and 10 - 12 days for Carboplatin.

 

What isn't clear to me is whether it is necessary to re-test just prior to administering the chemo drug, if the counts were good at the "mid-point" blood test. Since there is no guarantee you've tested at the dog's actual nadir when doing the midpoint testing, it would seem prudent.

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Mary, this is something you may want to consider speaking with Jaynie's oncologist about concerning doxorubicin with regard to the timing of it's administration

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23578093/

 

There are several other studies that support that given at a certain time of day the toxic effects to the heart are reduced and it is more effective against the cancer.

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Yep, you're exactly right. We had bloodwork done right before every chemo treatment, then follow-up bloodwork 7-10 days afterwards. The chemo causes the WBC count to drop off in that time. So they need to make sure that the low value isn't *too low* otherwise, the dog may need antibiotics.

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Thank you both. Judy, that is very interesting, I wonder how that would work with dogs since they sleep so much of the day. Our appointments are all around 1:30 in the afternoon.

 

Jaynie will be getting Carboplatin for the first time, this time around.

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Jaynie's most recent renal panel shows a remarkable drop in creatinine from her value pre-amputation. The pre-amp value, 215, seen above in an earlier post, was pretty consistent with where she has been for the last 4+ years. It dropped to 131 in the test done last week.

 

I was sure there was either a lab error or a sample mix-up. My vet, who was also initially surprised, thinks that because amputating the shoulder and leg removes a lot of muscle mass, and creatinine is basically a muscle waste product, that it makes sense that with less muscle there would be less creatinine.

 

Has this been other people's experience?

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...because amputating the shoulder and leg removes a lot of muscle mass, and creatinine is basically a muscle waste product, that it makes sense that with less muscle there would be less creatinine.

 

 

This article supports that.

15060353021_97558ce7da.jpg
Kathy and Q (CRT Qadeer from Fuzzy's Cannon and CRT Bonnie) and
Jane (WW's Aunt Jane from Trent Lee and Aunt M); photos to come.

Missing Silver (5.19.2005-10.27.2016), Tigger (4.5.2007-3.18.2016),
darling Sam (5.10.2000-8.8.2013), Jacey-Kasey (5.19.2003-8.22.2011), and Oreo (1997-3.30.2006)

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