Osteo Thread Part 8

[Guest MnMDogs]

I'm so sorry about Crouton.

[Guest Roux]

I'm so sorry about Crouton.

 

Thank you. I hope you will soon know exactly what is happening with Macy May and find the right solutions.

[NeylasMom]

Carol, I'm so sorry you're even potentially facing this disease. Hope it's just some old age stuff and the meds give you lots and lots of time to come. Regarding Artemisinin, Holley Pharmacueticals and Wellcare (I think that's the right name) are the 2 people typically recommend. One of the two makes something called Artemix that mixes the 3 derivatives for an easier, "well rounded" approach or you could pick and choose individual doses or just stick with the Arte. I had planned to have Zuri on it once we were outside of the window from radiation, but the second night I gave it he was nauseous. So I gave him a few days off and tried again with a smaller dose. That was going well and then something else made me stop it temporarily and we just haven't gone back. We won't unless we have a big turnaround here because I'm not going to risk making him nauseous right now.

 

Anyway, general consensus on using it still seems to be to give at 4-5 hours after a meal (usually at bedtime) with something fatty, but not containing iron, so that's typically dairy to help with absorption. The yahoo group recommends cottage cheese, but I was using Greek or goat yogurt. Also give any anti-oxidants in the morning away from the Arte. Most recommend using Butyrate alongside to enhance effectiveness.

 

 

Roux, I'm really sorry you're having to make this decision for Crouton. I hope you can find some peace in the fact that you're doing the kindest thing for her.

Regarding the med schedule, I really think your vet is the best person to ask, but while Tramadol and Gabapentin don't need to build in the system (ie. increased dosages will have a pretty immediate effect), I do still think you get to a sort of even level in the body as you give regular doses. So to me it makes sense to just dose things at the same amount every 6, 8 or 12 hours depending. But if you're letting her go today anyway, I think just give her whatever she needs to keep her comfortable, even if that means making her a bit sleepy.

[llm51807]

I've been reading back several pages and want to wish Cecil, Crouton and Zuri more pain-free days. It's definitely been a roller-coaster for all of you . I've been hesitant to jump in because we really don't know if Macy May does have bone cancer. Dr. Couto thought he saw some bone changes in her proximal right femur and recommended repeat xrays. My vet and the radiologist see nothing that would indicate cancer.

 

I honestly can't tell if the changes we're seeing in her are related to back end/LS type disease or if she's actually limping, she certainly doesn't seem painful most of the time. She seems to be having most trouble lifting that back right leg, and struggles a bit on our 2 steps to the house, and no longer will get on the couch (new over the past 3 weeks). That said, she's a wreck at the vet and if we do confirm cancer, we're not going to change anything we're doing (medications). I think she's getting what Crouton, Zuri, and Cecil are getting (minus tylenol). It's the same combo we were using for Mork for the last year or 2 of his life to manage his old dog woes (likely LS, arthritis)

 

Anyway, that's my long winded short story, to ask a question about Artemesinin. I figure it can't hurt to add it, but want to know what brand I should look for? I bought some many years ago when my Matty girl was first diagnosed, but hers was so advanced, I never got to use is, and I can't remember the brand.

 

Thanks for maintaining this thread, it's invaluable.

 

Let's hope Macy May's X-rays continue to show no cancer. We've been giving Cecil Arteminisin since February. We use Swanson Full Spectrum Wormwood. It's available on Amazon (just watch for a reputable seller) and he gets one capsule at dinner. Also, the hemp oil/CBD oil is supposed to have anticancer effects with little/no side effects and so does piroxicam (part of metronomic therapy). We tried piroxicam for Cecil instead of the Rimadyl as his NSAID but he had immediate GI issues and we switched back to Rimadyl. If you're already giving an NSAID, it may be worth switching to piroxicam if she can tolerate.

[NeylasMom]

Curcumin is another option Carol. We've been using that for a while now. It's an anti-inflammatory, but works on all pathways not just the Cox 2 (I think it's 2?) like Deramaxx, etc. Also supposed to have anti-cancer properties among many other amazing things. There are a very few contra-indications and at high doses it can be blood thinning so if you were going to do a surgical procedure you'd want to keep that in mind. But Zuri has done well on it. I actually just doubled it on Monday thinking can't hurt, might help.

[Guest MnMDogs]

 

Let's hope Macy May's X-rays continue to show no cancer. We've been giving Cecil Arteminisin since February. We use Swanson Full Spectrum Wormwood. It's available on Amazon (just watch for a reputable seller) and he gets one capsule at dinner. Also, the hemp oil/CBD oil is supposed to have anticancer effects with little/no side effects and so does piroxicam (part of metronomic therapy). We tried piroxicam for Cecil instead of the Rimadyl as his NSAID but he had immediate GI issues and we switched back to Rimadyl. If you're already giving an NSAID, it may be worth switching to piroxicam if she can tolerate.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

We actually have Piroxicam that we used for Greg. Last year, he had U/S findings indicative of urethral cancer, so we were using that to treat inflammation (and slow the suspected cancer), and miraculously his third U/S, 5 months after the first bad one was normal...it was inexplicable, but I won't question it.

 

Anyway, Greg tolerated Piroxicam really well, so I may ask about that for Macy May instead of the rimadyl. He's a bit smaller than she is, so we would need a different dose, but it's worth a try.

Curcumin is another option Carol. We've been using that for a while now. It's an anti-inflammatory, but works on all pathways not just the Cox 2 (I think it's 2?) like Deramaxx, etc. Also supposed to have anti-cancer properties among many other amazing things. There are a very few contra-indications and at high doses it can be blood thinning so if you were going to do a surgical procedure you'd want to keep that in mind. But Zuri has done well on it. I actually just doubled it on Monday thinking can't hurt, might help.

Thanks Jen! I started giving her curcumin nightly last week (I bought it for my achy joints, but I thought she deserved it more)!

 

No surgery for the old lady...so I won't have to worry about that. What dose do you give Z? I have 500 mg caps.

Edited August 17, 2016 by MnMDogs

[NeylasMom]

That's the tricky thing about Curcumin. Supposed to not be easily absorbable though different supplements have varying claims. So I ended up with Curamed, which is 250 mg of actual Curcuminoids but in a Curcumin oil that is suppose to enhance bioavailability. So I was giving one a day and just switched to 2. The dose recommendations seem to vary so much online it was hard to know, but I think I could even be giving 3 a day and might try that soon.

[llm51807]

Roux, I'm so sorry. If they don't want to eat and/or go out, that's definitely a sign (at least for my guy and it sounds like Crouton too). I don't think I'd hesitate to add either the Gaba or the Tramadol today to keep her comfortable. We're up to 4 Gaba at a time and when we increased we did see some wobbliness for a few days until he adjusted, so maybe keep that in mind. Please keep us posted and we'll be sending comfort to both of you today. Still hoping for another miracle for Crouton though.

 

Curcumin is another option Carol. We've been using that for a while now. It's an anti-inflammatory, but works on all pathways not just the Cox 2 (I think it's 2?) like Deramaxx, etc. Also supposed to have anti-cancer properties among many other amazing things. There are a very few contra-indications and at high doses it can be blood thinning so if you were going to do a surgical procedure you'd want to keep that in mind. But Zuri has done well on it. I actually just doubled it on Monday thinking can't hurt, might help.

 

Yes, we also do Curcumin (CurcuVet also from Amazon). And regarding piroxicam, most of the anti-cancer findings have been around bladder cancer and not osteo, but worth a try. We had a Beagle Retriever mix who had bladder cancer and was given months to live. He took piroxicam every day until he passed at 16 y/o four years later!

 

And, Jen based on what you said about the Arteminisin, I'm dosing wrong. I'll look into this. Thx.

[Guest MnMDogs]

I appreciate all of this information everyone. It's incredibly helpful.

[NeylasMom]

 

And, Jen based on what you said about the Arteminisin, I'm dosing wrong. I'll look into this. Thx.

Well fwiw, I am reading about a lot of dogs having nausea or other stomach side effects so if you have something that's working for you it's not necessarily a bad thing. When I started again at the later dose, I started closer to dinner and figured if we got up to the dose I wanted him at successfully then we'd try moving it to later in the evening. The food issue is potentially the Arte will act on the iron in the food and not the cancer cells. The anti-oxidants also supposedly render the Arte ineffective because the whole point is it's creating free radicals. Are you on the artemisinin yahoo group? There's a lot of helpful info there:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/artemisinin_and_cancer/info

 

 

Oddly, I don't remember about so many dogs having side effects from the Arte back when Neyla had cancer. And she took it with no ill effects whatsoever. I purchased mine from the same source this time, but it makes me wonder.

 

Part of me does also wonder, had we not done the radiation and gotten him on the Artemisinin at the dosage I wanted early on, would we have a different outcome? No way to know and I won't second guess myself about the decision to try radiation, but I do wonder.

[Guest MnMDogs]

Jen, I somehow missed your post about the Arte, but now I remember I purchased the Holly pharm for Matty, I'll probably go with them again.

[Guest Roux]

Just wanted you to know, especially for anyone new to this, that I was just able to get Crouton to go out after insisting. She showed me that she wanted to walk to the backyard, where she managed to both urinate and poop. Thank goodness, since she will rest so much more comfortably this afternoon. Can still tell we are making the right decision.

[NeylasMom]

Glad she was able to go out and take care of business.

 

 

Just sent photos of Zuri's anus to my vet via email. Just another average day in the Boyd-Morin household.

[NeylasMom]

We just had Wendy's. We both had cheeseburgers and fries and I had a Coke while Zuri had some vanilla Frosty.

 

Cheeseburger!

 

 

Roux, hope Crouton is having a restful afternoon. Is your vet coming to you or do you need to take her there? Will be thinking of you both.

Edited August 17, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Guest Roux]

Love the Zuri photo, Jen. Unfortunately, can't get the video to play... Crouton has been resting well this afternoon. We will be going to our vet. Unfortunately, he cannot come to us.

 

Just wanted to post a photo of Crouton this afternoon. We have been having her favorites: BilJac Liver Treats, and rare butter-sauteed steak bites for all.

 

[Guest MnMDogs]

Roux - She's such a beautiful girl, my heart is breaking for you.

 

 

and Jen - Zuri!

 

I love the gray faced old men so much!

Edited August 17, 2016 by MnMDogs

[4My2Greys]

Roux my heart hurts for you and Crouton.

[NeylasMom]

She is so so beautiful. I'm so sorry today has to be the day. Sending thoughts for a peaceful trip to the vet.

[llm51807]

Roux, Crouton is even more beautiful than I imagined. Those lovely eyes. I'm so very sorry it's time to say goodbye. My heart is with you now and I am sending good thoughts for her peaceful passing.

[NeylasMom]

Thinking of Crouton and her family right now

Edited August 17, 2016 by NeylasMom

[greysmom]

 

 

 

On a different subject, we're nearing page 50 for this version of the Osteo Thread, so it's going to be cut off soon. I will begin the next chapter when it reaches that point and the thread will most likely get locked. If you want to dowload and/or copy/save any portions of this thread, you should do so soon.

[Annette]

So sorry to hear about Crouton. Sending hugs.

[Guest LazyBlaze]

Very sad to hear about Crouton. What a beautiful girl. Thinking of you and sending hugs.

[Guest Roux]

Whew – am having to take a deep breath just to write this. We said goodbye to our sweet, sweet Crouton yesterday evening, with the help of our unfailingly kind and skilled vet. Knowing she is no longer in pain gives me peace, even though there is a huge empty place without her. Once I am up to it, I will try to post something on the Remembrance page.

 

I did want to mention that Niels, our grey/deerhound mix, spent almost all day lying on the floor by her bed. It is amazing what they know.

 

On a positive note, DH and I have decided we will be ready for a new grey family member in mid-October. Wonderful Teddy Palmer ( https://www.facebook.com/HalfwayHomeGreyhounds/ ) will be working with us again to find the right fit for Niels & Pi. I don't know what the count is now, but she has rehomed literally thousands of greyhounds across the US and Canada. We are so extremely fortunate to have her helping us. Nothing fills that greyhound-shaped hole in the heart like another greyhound.

 

Thanks SO much to everyone here who contributed to this forum, and to all of you who helped me through this very difficult, if short, time. I don't know what I would have done without all your support.

 

I have been busying myself copying most of this thread so I can have this invaluable information in a document on my computer.

 

Would love to have updates about Cecil and Zuri. Please post when you can.

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Roux

[NeylasMom]

Roux, glad to hear from you to know that you at least are surviving. I'm so very sorry for your loss. It never gets easier. I know that you will find the best pup to help fill the hole in your hearts when you are ready. It took me a long time after I lost Neyla to osteo to be ready to welcome another dog home, but I always say that Violet brought joy back into our home and hearts.

 

Zuri is doing pretty well. Day after day I ask myself if today is the day and I think it's not, but tomorrow may be. And then he surprises me. Monday was the worst and things have definitely been better since then. We are not going back there, or if we do I will call the vet immediately. Buy he's actually running around and playing with his Cuz before I can stop him. He is sometimes sore afterward, but it does seem to be less when he is. We haven't had an issue with stairs since Monday. So I decided today that I'm not going to stop him anymore. We will still keep walks shorter (it's too hot anyway), but if he wants to play or otherwise be silly I will let him. If that becomes a problem, then it's time to call the vet. I don't think there's any chance we'll have a complete bounceback, but we're only today getting the hemp fully on board and I do think it may be doing something so as long as he's acting like himself and comfortable we'll see where we get with that. The vet is on standby and I can have her or the vet from the other service come within 24 hours so knowing that, I feel more comfortable with this day by day approach.

 

Thanks for asking about us in the midst of your grief. I have been thinking about you guys constantly and checking this thread pretty much hourly of not more often hoping to hear from you. Continued good thoughts for you and your family as you deal with this.