Osteo Thread Part 8

[Guest Roux]

Wow! I was just about to post and accidentally wiped out my entire, rather lengthy note. Sorry! Before addressing Crouton, I want to comment about Zuri.

 

I really feel for you having Zuri painful after his treatment and in the night. I know what you mean about some vet's offices forcing the animals to "do what's best for them". We are fortunate that our vet asks our opinion about the best way to lift Crouton for an x-ray, or what we think is the best position for her treatment. And, I really hope you can convince your vet to allow you to stay with Zuri during his treatments in the future. Crouton is also sweet and cooperative, but I think it really helps to have the people she trusts most tell her everything is okay while she is undergoing something unpleasant.

 

 

I don't know Zuri's Zoledronate dose, but they give it in fluids over 15 minutes like Cecil's.

 

If either you or Lori have a chance to ask your vets, I would really appreciate knowing what their reason is for giving the Zoledronate in 15 minutes. Since our vet specifically told me there was some disagreement about how quickly/slowly to infuse, I have to think your vets believe 15 minutes is better than more slowly. Who knows?

 

The wonderful thing is that you and Zuri can celebrate his healed toe! That is great news – one less thing to worry about!

 

Crouton is still doing much better with the 3x/day meds schedule. With the exception of one mega-repositioning event in the middle of last night, she mostly slept through. She is also meeting us at the door in the evenings, plus I always go home for lunch and get a greeting then – all on three legs, though. When we go into the backyard off-leash, for the last several days she heads for a taller clump of grass to eat. I guess this is her body telling her she is sick, and her attempt to self-medicate. Wish it were that easy...

 

Keep us posted on Zuri's progress. Hoping against hope that you get a two-day improvement this time!

[NeylasMom]

Regarding the Zoledronate time, my impression was more that the shorter time wasn't better, just that the longer time wasn't necessary or didn't offer additional benefits. Did your vet give the reasoning from those that think longer is better?

 

Thanks for the support. I am going to ask what went on before our next appt. My regular vet's office is the same. They go straight toward restraint, but they're also very good about working with me and accommodating my requests for gentler handling. However, it's rare that I let them do anything without me present bedside I know the minute I do they'll resort to what they're used to. It happened with Skye just last week. Her lady parts are irritated. The vet immediately starts telling her to sit repeatedly and pushing on her butt. This is ridiculous because Skye, who is my mutt and is also my demo dog for training classes sits on cue every time. Like every single time. She didn't even give her a chance to respond, she wad pushing on her the minute she said it so Of course she resisted. I just jumped in and said she didn't have to do that, called Skye away, asked her to hop up into the couch, told her to lie down and then nudged her leg so she'd spread them wide open. The vet then proceeded to poke and prod down there while we talked for at least several minutes with me feeding Skye treats and absolutely NO resistance. It makes me crazy to think about how unpleasant and stressful an experience she would have had for absolutely no good reason versus the positive one she did have if I hadn't been there to intervene. And their response is "most dogs aren't like her", but if you never give them a chance to be like her, you'll get dogs that are increasingly difficult to deal with!

 

Anyway, end rant.

 

Glad Crouton is continuing to do well. The grass eating could be mild GI upset. I give probiotics daily and Vetriscience makes a really nice GI supplement for problem times. Its called Probiotic BD I think.

Edited August 10, 2016 by NeylasMom

[llm51807]

Sorry for the slow reply. I was working onsite with a customer all day today and just got home. My husband stayed home with the boys since Cecil's pill schedule requires someone be here much of the day.

 

I know my vet likes me but I think he hates me a little bit too! LOL! I love him and he definitely lets me be part of the team and he's not afraid to say "I don't know I need to research" or call a specialist, or ask me what I've read on the subject. That kind of treatment is priceless to me. I'm pretty particular about being with Cecil during any procedure and I request they do as much as possible on the floor on his bed vs risking lifting him onto the vet table. He hates that, his legs flail and it's downright dangerous, especially now. Pushing on Cecil's butt to get him to sit will get you stink-eye and a hunkered stance that ensures he's going nowhere near the floor! Last time a tech got behind him and just touched his butt and he screamed bloody murder! I bring treats and it takes a little time to get him into the right laying down position (he can't roll over on his side from a sphinx and his down command is a sphinx). And then he doesn't move once he's on his side. It was the same routine with his chemo but that lasted longer because they did lots of fluids with that and they did the chemo in an IV drip vs the push like many vets do with carboplatin.

 

Jen, your story about poor Skye's lady parts is cracking me up! Poor girl; I hope she's feeling better. Nothing fun about that, but at least she's a good patient with the right motivation! I think many dogs would be, but I don't think many people really understand the power of positive reinforcement/training. The vet's office is usually a mad house and no one seems to have any control over their dogs. Sometimes Cecil just looks at me like, "WTH, Mom, why did you bring me here with these crazies?"

 

Glad to hear Zuri's Zoledronate kicked in super-fast. I hate hearing about the yelps and crying. I feel like it actually breaks my heart a little every time I hear that noise.

 

So as far as length/pace of treatment, I also think I remember my vet (who consulted with our oncologist and did a lot of reading on zoledronate since he'd never used it) decided to do the 4g (I think, I'll check) @15 minutes because it was better at a slower drip. I will ask him on Monday when I see him. Glad to hear the meds are settling Crouton (which, by the way, might be the one of the best greyhound names I've ever heard!). I hope she continues to improve! Oh, and Cecil has had horrible hookworms when we got him and it took months to get rid of them and get his stomach settled. He still flares up now and then but VERY rarely. We've given him VetriScience Probiotic BD for 4 years. I even bumped his dose a bit when he stared chemo and have kept it there. He's not had ANY GI issues with all these meds which is shocking.

 

Well, as far as Cecil, the news isn't great. I do not think I can say we went back to "square one" after his bad fall Saturday night. He seems a little worse than that and he's still on the upped meds dose (Gabapentin 4@3x and Tramadol 100mg@4x plus the Rimadyl and CDB oil) and he's still limping worse than I've ever seen him. Still hungry, tail wagging, sleeping through the night and wants to go on walks, but really limping badly and more tender and slow. I keep re-living the whole running, crashing, screaming episode over and over in my mind, thinking about the million things I could have done differently. I'm really really really hoping the Zoledronate works on Monday. Fingers crossed his bloodwork is OK on Friday so we can even do it.

[NeylasMom]

I'm so sorry Cecil is having a hard time. It really truly sucks when things are going well and then one stupid thing causes a problem. Just try to remember that it was an accident and be kind to yourself. Unlike my case, where I stupidly decided we could go another week without treatment. Dumb dumb dumb. But lesson learned. I think I got a little overconfident. I also started to think maybe the radiation had a very delayed reaction and that's why we weren't seeing the Zoledronate wear off as quickly, but that obviously isn't the case.

 

Oh, and thanks, Skye's lady parts are MUCH improved. Was much happier with my vet's recs over those of the other vet we had to see when she was out of town.

[NeylasMom]

We had a rough evening. I upped Z's Tramadol even further so he did well through the night and is sleeping now. But he is more painful than I would like. I'm waiting for the vet to call me back to find out of they did indeed manipulate him onto the bed for treatment. If they did, then I have my confirmation that thats likely the issue and not just his tumor progressing. Very frustrated with myself for multiple reasons right now.

 

And could this damn toe just heal please?!!

Edited August 11, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Guest Roux]

It makes my heart ache to hear Zuri had a rough evening, but try to be kind to yourself as you have asked Lori to do in Cecil's situation. Every day, even though these 3-4 days have been better than our absolutely horrible last weekend, I ask myself how the next few hours are going to be, how tonight will be, how does it feel to be inside Crouton looking out? I hear you, and know you will do the best thing.

[llm51807]

It makes my heart ache to hear Zuri had a rough evening, but try to be kind to yourself as you have asked Lori to do in Cecil's situation. Every day, even though these 3-4 days have been better than our absolutely horrible last weekend, I ask myself how the next few hours are going to be, how tonight will be, how does it feel to be inside Crouton looking out? I hear you, and know you will do the best thing.

 

Sorry to hear about Zuri's bad night. So many ups and downs for all of us and our hounds. I'm trying so hard to stay in the moment with Cecil and not think too far ahead, but it's so hard. If we only could be inside them looking out, for just a moment. I guess we all have to be confident we'll do the right thing.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks. I will try to take your advice. It's just a crappy situation thinking there are several things I could have done differently to prevent this. A few rough days here and there while we sorted out what worked for him was okay. This totally unnecessary bit though, I'm just not comfortable with. But presumably the Zoledronate is starting to take effect. He was so good when I got home yesterday. Clearly even though I was trying to limit his bounciness I didn't do enough. So he is going to get a lot of rest today and I will be more careful when he starts feeling better until I'm sure we're back to normal.

[Guest Roux]

Glad to hear the meds are settling Crouton (which, by the way, might be the one of the best greyhound names I've ever heard!).

 

Well, as far as Cecil, the news isn't great. I do not think I can say we went back to "square one" after his bad fall Saturday night. He seems a little worse than that and he's still on the upped meds dose (Gabapentin 4@3x and Tramadol 100mg@4x plus the Rimadyl and CDB oil) and he's still limping worse than I've ever seen him. Still hungry, tail wagging, sleeping through the night and wants to go on walks, but really limping badly and more tender and slow. I keep re-living the whole running, crashing, screaming episode over and over in my mind, thinking about the million things I could have done differently. I'm really really really hoping the Zoledronate works on Monday. Fingers crossed his bloodwork is OK on Friday so we can even do it.

 

Hoping Cecil is feeling much better today. The fact that he is still hungry, happy, and sleeping is really positive. And keeping my fingers crossed, too, about the bloodwork. I guess I will be facing those concerns soon.

 

Glad you like the name "Crouton"! Just a little history about the name – you can see her racing name was Springwateranton. He kennel gave her that name because she is incredibly tall and long for a female. In fact, she is as long and tall as our grey/deerhound male, Niels, but 15 lbs lighter. Her height reminded her kennel owners of the tall, leggy movie star Susan Anton – thus her name. Anton was a fine name, but we wanted something a little different to start her new life. We had whippets years ago with food names: Windborn's Biscuit Eater (Biscuit), and Petey de Foie Gras (Petey, the large, economy-sized whippet), and even our current whippet boy's name is a bit of a double entendre, Pi (we have math-heads and scientists in the family). Since Crouton sounded so much like Anton, we hoped it would make her transition to her new name pretty easy, which it has.

 

Conclusion: we like to play with language, try to keep our senses of humor, and fundamentally put a lot of time and discussion into naming our furry family members. That's part of the fun!

Thanks. I will try to take your advice. It's just a crappy situation thinking there are several things I could have done differently to prevent this. A few rough days here and there while we sorted out what worked for him was okay. This totally unnecessary bit though, I'm just not comfortable with. But presumably the Zoledronate is starting to take effect. He was so good when I got home yesterday. Clearly even though I was trying to limit his bounciness I didn't do enough. So he is going to get a lot of rest today and I will be more careful when he starts feeling better until I'm sure we're back to normal.

 

Oh my gosh, I really, really know what you mean about limiting his bounciness. It both terrifies me and makes me happy to see Crouton feel good enough to do something like "trot" across the backyard. I mean, all our efforts are to get them to feel better, but when they do, you are constantly worrying that feeling better will make them do something to feel worse. Osteo is cruel that way, too. All we can do is learn and adjust. Hang in there!

[NeylasMom]

Petey de Foie Gras, I love it!

[NeylasMom]

So I didn't talk to the vet directly, but the receptionist asked for me and claims he just laid down on his own for the treatment. So I don't know what to think at this point. Except that I'm a total idiot for not doing the Zoledronate last week. Deep breaths, I'll keep him on the increased Tramadol for now and he gets his massage on Saturday, which should help a lot as well.

[Guest Roux]

I came home to a different dog! To the point that he was acting like a crazy dog, totally carelessly running and trotting around. I did what I could to keep him calm and not have multiple heart attacks since I know he's not quite ready for total mania yet.

 

Unfortunately the toe is raw again.

 

Still, Zoledronate is starting to work. Me, myself and I are going to celebrate since I seem to be the only one posting in here.

 

My apologies, Jen, but I completely missed this post, and the fact the Zuri's toe is bad again. Sorry for the congrats when I missed this new development. Good grief!

[Guest Roux]

Oh yes, I do want to ask for opinions on something... Crouton, the vet, and I had been watching a healing spot on her "good" hind leg for weeks before we discovered the osteo. She had stumbled and torn her leg open vertically in a bad spot where there really wasn't any extra skin to pull together. After a few days, the bottom stitches tore out, but it was small enough and not deep, so we decided to let it heal on its own.

 

Of course, we tried the collar first. It was almost as wide as the doorway! She is so limber that she could be a yoga instructor. Plus, she started acting like a crazed, bucking bronco in the back of the SUV on the way home, and it was a foregone conclusion that if I didn't get that thing off, she was going to kill herself. Naturally, the leg was wrapped in non-stick bandage, then overwrapped with Coban. The bandage option lasted about 3 seconds, and multiple other wraps failed as well. So then I went to the muzzle option, which worked for a while until she figured out how to get to it. Then, I added the stool-guard to the muzzle which lasted long enough to get her partially healed. THEN, she somehow managed to get her teeth caught in the muzzle (go figure ), so that was it. The vet said it was far enough along so we quit trying to keep her away from it.

 

Now weeks, yea months later, it has become a lick spot – not quite a granuloma, but not healed either. So, there is the question: has anyone heard about slower or less effective healing in greyhounds who have cancer? It is now obvious that the cancer was growing during the time we were hoping her leg would heal. I can't help but wonder if the body is just not as good about healing when it is already weakened by this disease. Thoughts?

[NeylasMom]

Don't think it's greyhounds so much, but yes, they're immune systems are taxed, which makes it more likely these things won't heal as easily. I'm pretty sure that's why we ended up with an infected toe, though I can't be certain. I think the Epsom salt soaks helped us more than anything. You might try that with a soaked washcloth. I should have done one this morning, but I will tonight.

[llm51807]

Have either of you tried raw aloe? I rolled my eyes at it when someone at the health food store was selling me on Herbal Solutions' AloeForce Gel. We were talking human skin care, acne, dry skin and she swore by it. I've had it on my shelf for a few months and then a few weeks ago I used it on a freshly evacuated zit crater (I thought I'd have much better skin as a grown-up but that never panned out!). I was surprised to see it healed over with minimal redness, scabbing, dryness in only a few days. Something that size usually hangs around for a week and a half for me. I've used it a few more times since with fantastic results. I'm really surprised; I've tried every potion and cream, expensive and cheap, known to woman.

 

Not sure if it would work on a dog, but I'll try it when I have the occasion (which, based on the cut and scrape rate with these hounds should be soon!).

 

Cecil didn't have a great day, but he perked up at dinner and seems to be moving a little easier now. Monday can't come soon enough.

[Guest Roux]

Epsom salts and aloe – both great ideas! And, it wouldn't be a problem when she licks either off, I presume. I think I actually have some of both on the shelf, aloe because it works well for sunburn, too. I used to have a plant and could just break off a leaf. May have to acquire another one of those.

 

Just one little funny to share... On our morning walk in the front yard, Crouton became very interested in something on the ground, which I suddenly realized was, of all things, armadillo pooh. I deducted this from the tell-tale holes they dig in the yard with their snouts looking for grubs and worms. Crout is normally faster than lightening, but I manager to distract her with my outcry right before she planned to gobble it up. Wonder what that would do for her intestinal flora.

 

I need to run and get everyone outside before it is completely dark, plus Crouton should be crossing her legs by now. Wishing every person and hound a good night.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Roux

[NeylasMom]

Armadillo poo, that's a new one for me.

 

How are Cecil and Crouton today?

 

I had to increase Z's Tramadol again after he bounced around like a nut the day after his treatment. He's usually on 100 mg 3x/day, sometimes 125, without issue. I bumped it up to 150 and holy cow did that knock him out. But he seems to have adjusted. Funny how that works.

 

Hoping we can go back down soon though. Still not sure what's going on - whether he is really sore from something he did or if his tumor has gotten worse, but the meds are doing their job now. He also has his massage tomorrow so that should help.

 

In the meantime, I've gone back to Epsom salt soaks for the toe as those seem to help the most. I haven't tried aloe, but after trying a bunch of stuff, I've settled on Trypzyme, which apparently isn't made anymore, but I have an old bottle. It's a thick gel that supposedly promotes granulation and has anti-bacterial properties. It has done the best job thus far of drying out the wound and making it smaller. I also made some improvements to our bandaging method. So I am staying on top of this thing - no more set backs!

[palmettobug]

I wonder if someone in the UK can send you some TCP for his toe. Stinks to high heaven, though.

[llm51807]

We had a bad night last night. He cried out a few times while repositioning and he hurts even more this morning. My vet is on vacation until Monday; we have an appointment at 4PM only for a blood draw with the tech ahead of our zoledronate treatment on Monday. I called our ortho vet and she doesn't have any thing until Wed next week (she's out).

 

So I've got Gabapentin, Rimadyl and Tramadol here. We're at:

 

Gaba - 4 @100mg x 3/day

Rimadyl - 1 @50mg x 2/day

Tramadol - 2 @50mg x 4x/day

 

Jen, you said you've given Zuri up to 150mg of Tramadol at a time? Just wondering how much I can go up in dose with the Tramadol and wondering if Tylenol might help as well?

 

He is still sleeping OK once he's settled and staying asleep for the most part. Taking treats still and is putting some weight on the shoulder but not much. He's not panting or pacing or having anxiety. Getting up is difficult and painful, especially if he's lying on the good side and needs the bad side to pull himself up.

 

I'm not sure we're going to make it through the weekend.

[Guest Roux]

Wish Zuri was feeling even better, and hope you get to reduce his pain med dose soon. Could you tell me where his tumor is? Do you know where Cecil's is? I haven't had time to read back far enough to get the full history on Zuri or Cecil. Does Zuri put any weight on his leg at all? Cecil? Crouton does not. Just wondering...

 

Five days into our 3x/day meds schedule (it feels like a month!), Crouton seems to be feeling pretty good. Not as joyful as her old self, but calm and interactive without panting or any noises that indicate stress. She is still eager for meals/treats and comes to her food bowl without being asked, has developed pretty good routines for going out on-leash, and knows that when I let her wander off-leash in the backyard it is for her big potty break(s), and to give her a little needed exercise. She hasn't scared me again by taking off at a 3-legged sprint, but I have little doubt that she might do it again if our dog-boys have another excited yard-spasm and start racing toward the fence. For that reason, in the afternoons I am starting to take Crouton out off-leash when they are inside. There is more activity in the neighborhood in the afternoons and that makes the boys more likely to get worked-up. Once inside, Crouton pretty much lies around all day, but then that is not very different from what she and the boys have always done. We can't help but wonder if we are starting to see some good effects from the Zoledronate treatment, but all we can do is speculate. Just one treatment, the effects of better-managed pain meds, better routines – who knows?

 

I have positioned a new bed right in the middle of our hallway/entryway so she has a good vantage point for all household activities without getting up and investigating. I think this has helped her to feel more settled, since she can always see what room I am in. She is not always great at centering herself on the bed, though, so I shore up the edges with rolled-up bedding to make sure she can lie back and have support for her head and body without having to reposition. It is amazing how quickly she has become adjusted to these extra services and understands exactly how to take advantage of the offered comfort. Behind that sweet, placid demeanor Crouton is truly dumb like a fox. I am more than happy to serve the greyhound.

 

Hope Zuri is feeling better the next time we hear from you, and looking forward to a new report about Cecil Hugs to you both.

[Guest Roux]

So sad Cecil feels so bad. I am certainly not a vet, but our vet had me start giving Tylenol about 1 1/2 weeks ago and it made a huge difference for Crouton. You might try that right away and see if you think it makes enough of a difference to get you to your vet/treatment. My heart aches for you and Cecil. You will do the right thing.

 

This is where Crouton's meds are now.

 

Tylenol - 500 mg 3x/day

Gabapentin - 300 mg 3x/day

Tramadol - 100 mg 3x/day (vet says this can be constipating, so we have kept it low for now)

 

Carprofen - 75 mg 2x/day

 

I shattered my right shoulder in a stupid fall 1 1/2 years ago and had to have a shoulder replacement. It was painful for a long time, but after the initial healing where I had to have the major pain meds, Tylenol did a better job for me than the prescription stuff. It is pretty amazing. Hope maybe this will help.

 

Please let me know how things go today. You and Cecil will be in my thoughts.

[NeylasMom]

So sorry Cecil is having a tough time. Zuri's allowed to go up to 150 mg Tramadol every 6 hours (we're doing every 8). He weighs 70 lbs for reference.

 

Fentanyl or Tylenol would both be options to add in. There's also something called Amantadine. Not supposed to do much on its own to relieve pain but supposedly enhances pain relieving properties of other meds, including NSAIDs. We actually filled a scrip for it to have on hand, but haven't tried it. At this point I'm hesitant to add new things because of the unknown, both with side effects and kidney stuff. But I believe others on here have used it with success.

 

There's one other option. I just ordered marijuana pills. Okay, it's not really marijuana, it's a supplement made using the cannabinoid from hemp. There is minimal THC so they don't get high. There's a thread on this forum about it if you want to check it out. I decided a while ago that I was willing to try it as a last ditch sort of thing so provided things don't get worse before, I am giving the Zoledronate until Tuesday since it took a full week to start the work the first time around and if it doesn't seem to be working, I will try the pot.

 

 

Roux, Zuri's tumor is in his left humerus (shoulder), which is where Neyla's also was. For some reason I think that's where Cecil's is too, but I might be wrong?

And yes, Zuri is and has always been weight bearing. Because of his LS I don't think he really can 3 leg it, which I think is what has made pain management tougher for us at times (especially because I'm in a 3rd floor condo so he has to do a lot of stairs). He basically has one good leg at this point. But I have a very low tolerance for what I think is acceptable in terms of discomfort with a terminal disease. So aside from these few rough days here and there he really doesn't seem bothered by his leg. I say he has a slight hiccup in his giddyup, but it's not really noticeable most of the time. What is noticeable is his muscle spasms from his gait being out of whack, which is why we're doing the massages and they really help.

Edited August 12, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Guest Roux]

My apologies, Lori, I did realize Cecil's primary is in his shoulder. Don't know what I was thinking.

Oh, and Crouton weights 75 lbs, also for reference.

[NeylasMom]

Here are a couple of videos of Zuri. This is at the cabin a few weeks ago before his Zoledronate wore off. This is at the end of the weekend on pretty uneven rocky ground so the limp is a bit more noticeable:

 

And this is a typical day with the Zoledronate on board:

[Guest Roux]

Thanks for filling in my gaps about Zuri. The videos really tell a story, in that it is really almost impossible to tell from these that he has serious issues. I would never guess about his shoulder. Crouton stopped weight-bearing on her left hind-leg about a week after her diagnosis, then started a little weight-bearing for 2-3 days after adding the Tylenol, then dropped it completely. I would say she has not been using the leg for about 9 days now. Unless the next Zoledronate treatment makes a big difference, I am not really expecting to see her use the leg again.

 

I know the LS must make it much more difficult for both of you, plus the stairs. Do hope you are taking care of your back, too.