Osteo Thread Part 8

[Guest Roux]

Heavens, Jen, I know what you mean. As fast as the disease progressed with Crouton, I was convinced I knew the right time to say goodbye at least three times before we made the final decision. Honestly, what helped us know when the time was right was Crouton's change in will. She helped me, because she told me she was no longer interested in the most basic joys and responsibilities: eating with gusto and going outside. I could tell she really didn't want to have to lie down, even though she wanted to be down. This change happened overnight for us and I knew we needed to give her the gift of stopping the struggle with osteo.

 

This was just our experience with Crouton, and for you, Lori, and others it may be/have been very different. You know your hounds best.

 

I did look at the first several pages of the book Lori recommended to me, Sight Hound, and saw this: "I know that hope is the hardest love we carry" (from Hope and Love, Jane Hirshfield). That really hit me like a ton of bricks. The question of when do you let go of hope. That was my struggle, but Crouton's was a struggle with pain, the loss of living a life she loved, and a terminal disease. When she spoke to me through her actions and I was able to truly look at her life through her eyes, I was able to have the strength to help her let go.

 

Michael tells me that euthanasia is the greatest gift we give the animals who share our lives. You both will know when the time is right.

[EllenEveBaz]

[llm51807]

Thanks to all who are checking in and sending good thoughts. I found GreyTalk shortly after adopting Cecil in 2010 and this community has in some ways always been a part of my relationship with him - like his instruction manual. I have found all kinds of opinions and experiences here that have helped build my understanding of this incredible, quirky, devastatingly beautiful, breed. That I would also find support along with information in the end shouldn't surprise me, but I've always been more of a consumer of the data here and not an active community member, and for that, I'm sorry. I'll be better in the future and hopefully pay this kindness forward.

 

Roux, I'm tickled you went out and bought that book. I've been thinking a lot about the power of hope and the pain it can cause (although, I'd never give that up, it's who I am), so the quote you cited was perfect. And thanks for the feedback on the tylenol. My vet did give us tylenol 3 on Monday and we've been doing twice a day - I bumped to 3x and I think it's helping. Also, just want to say, it's a good thing Neils was all the way in the Beautiful Ozarks back in 2013 or I may have driven over and snatched him up for myself. I am an absolute sucker for a scruffy dog. Have you seen Tricia's (45MPHK9) River? Your Neils is so handsome!

 

Jen, I hope the rest of your day is going well with Zuri. You'll know the right thing to do tomorrow. And yes, it IS a freaking emotional roller coaster...with a swarm of bees on top! Sheesh!

 

Our day improved significantly. I'm giving credit to the MJ Sundae and the extra Tylenol 3. Pain seems to be controlled and he's been peaceful most of the day. My hope for today and tomorrow day is just that he's calm and pain-free when he's lying down. He's still eating and begging for food like nothing is wrong. I seriously think he may have the munchies from the CBD oil; he's hungrier than usual (which I didn't think was possible!). Jen, have you seen that with Zuri. They said that wasn't a side effect, but maybe? I don't think Cecil will give up on his food like Crouton. If he did, that would certainly be the sign, but it's not necessary. I see the pain and fear in his eyes. That's enough. I pray we do not end up with anxiety again tonight. That's horrible.

[NeylasMom]

Glad you are seeing improvement with Cecil! I thought I saw that affect from the cannabis supplement on the first day after he got 2 doses a little closer together than 12 hrs but not since then. However, many people report using it to increase appetance. I always assumed it was the high that gave you the munchies, but I am guessing it's the cannabinoids themselves. The in-home euthanasia vet did say in passing to me that many dogs with osteo don't stop eating and if that was what I was "waiting for" implied he might end up in bad shape (I was just saying that would be a definite sign to me, not something I was waiting for).

 

Other than this stupid anal gland issue, we're continuing to have a really good day over here where I'm sure I've let him do too much.

Edited August 21, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Guest Roux]

Also, just want to say, it's a good thing Neils was all the way in the Beautiful Ozarks back in 2013 or I may have driven over and snatched him up for myself. I am an absolute sucker for a scruffy dog. Have you seen Tricia's (45MPHK9) River? Your Neils is so handsome!

 

Yes, I just found a photo of River – what a cutie! That whiskery look is pretty endearing on a greyhound body, isn't it?

 

Lori, so relieved to hear Cecil is feeling better and able to rest. You all deserve a decent evening and peaceful night, and I do hope this continues into tomorrow.

 

And, Jen, am so happy to hear Zuri is still having a good day. What the in-home vet said about many dogs continuing to eat doesn't surprise me. But it is funny that Cecil and Zuri have gotten the munchies. Hard to imagine a greyhound getting even more excited about food!

 

Will check back in the morning to see how both your sweet boys do overnight.

[NeylasMom]

Lori, hope you are having a peaceful night with Cecil.

 

I River too. I am a sucker for the fuzzies.

 

I gotta tell ya, it really sucks laying here with my boy not knowing if tomorrow is going to be our last day together.

[Guest Roux]

Cecil, Zuri, and all their humans – thinking about you all day and sending wishes for strength.

[NeylasMom]

Thank you Miriam.

 

Lori, how are you, Geno and Cecil doing? I hope you had a restful night.

 

I didn't sleep at all last night and am really struggling. Waiting for the vet to call me back. In the meantime, it's the first nice day we've had in ages so we're hanging on the deck enjoying some fresh air.

[turbotaina]

....

 

I didn't sleep at all last night and am really struggling. Waiting for the vet to call me back. In the meantime, it's the first nice day we've had in ages so we're hanging on the deck enjoying some fresh air.

 

I didn't realize things were so bad with Zuri as you haven't posted details elsewhere (or at least, not that I've seen). I'm so sorry, Jen Glad we got to spend some time with you at the cabin and I was hoping you'd both be with us at the cookout. Hope you're enjoying this beautiful day.

[NeylasMom]

 

I didn't realize things were so bad with Zuri as you haven't posted details elsewhere (or at least, not that I've seen). I'm so sorry, Jen Glad we got to spend some time with you at the cabin and I was hoping you'd both be with us at the cookout. Hope you're enjoying this beautiful day.

Thanks Mer. I have been avoiding posting much elsewhere, at least not details, because things are so day by day and I don't necessarily want to take everyone on the rollercoaster ride with me. I'm just really struggling this time around. I think this just being a ** year with my dad dying and yesterday being a year since I let Cisco go isn't helping either. But I have to do what's best for Z.

 

The vet called me back, but there was some weird connection issue and then I got her voicemail. I'm hoping to talk with her soon.

[llm51807]

Thank you for your good wishes Roux - or I should say Miriam - both are so lovely. You really have the name thing down in your family! Jen, good to hear you two are out enjoying the weather and I'm sorry to hear this has been such a full year of loss for you. Sending you strength and wisdom energy this morning; well, as much strength energy as I can muster anyway.

 

Got him to sleep around midnight and he stayed settled until 4AM and then he started pawing at me for comfort. I cuddled with him for an hour or so, but he wanted to get up and get a drink and then get up and go out. I could see his anxiety building up again and the MJ Sundae didn't help much this time. He's calm now after breakfast thankfully. The vet is coming around 4 or 4:30. I just can't believe I won't lay eyes on his handsome face again or smell that familiar Teddy Bear smell of his ears. And he has the softest bunny fur on his head and neck - like silk. Still, I'm relieved we made it through the weekend and I'm grateful we can do this at home. He's been eating grass-fed filet and gingersnaps this morning. We'll have more steak and some ice cream a little later. And lots of cuddles.

[turbotaina]

Jen, hope you can speak with the vet soon

[Guest Roux]

There are no words....just love them.

[NeylasMom]

Still, I'm relieved we made it through the weekend and I'm grateful we can do this at home. He's been eating grass-fed filet and gingersnaps this morning. We'll have more steak and some ice cream a little later. And lots of cuddles.

So sad for you guys, but glad you will be at home with him. Will be sending thoughts for a peaceful passing.

[NeylasMom]

Lori, thinking of you, Geno, and Cecil

[45MPHK9]

This was my mantra for weeks after Murray died. Murray was going to a much better place, a place where he would be healthy and whole again. One day, but not today, I am certain that I will see him there. Thinking about you, Lori, Geno, and Jet. You have some very hard days coming. You will get through them.

[Guest Roux]

Still thinking about Lori, Jeno, and Jet today, and into tonight. I know Lori will let us know how she is when she can.

 

Jen, please give us an update on Zuri. How was his day, and yours? I have been thinking about you all day, as well.

[Guest MnMDogs]

Thinking of you, Lori and family. Also hoping to hear from Jen.

 

Roux, I hope you're doing ok as well.

[NeylasMom]

Hi all, crazy day. Short version for those who don't want to read all of the details - Zuri is still with us and I'm feeling a lot more hopeful about things though I know things can change on a dime. Long version, keep reading...

 

 

So I finally connected with the vet around 3:30 pm. By then after giving it a lot of thought and also talking it through with my therapist I had decided that even if it had to be tomorrow, it wasn't going to be today because I still had too much uncertainty. I also realized I was having a lot of anxiety over wanting his last day and euthanasia to be "perfect" so I felt like if I didn't follow through today I might not be able to do it exactly how I wanted (spending the day with him, feeding him his dinner and having the vet come when he's nice and relaxed afterward), but I realized that was the wrong way to think about it, especially when we essentially have 2 vets on call who can between them come pretty immediately. So I asked the vet to come anyway just to meet with us, give us her unbiased assessment and also check out the issue with Zuri's anus.

 

First off, I really like her. We've talked on the phone a good bit and meeting her in person just confirmed that she is very compassionate, kind, and the person I want to help us when it's time if at all possible. She also specializes in pain management, end of life care and euthanasia - it's all she does - so she had a lot of information about pain management and especially oral pain meds that was very different from what my oncologist's approach has been. I had already decided to change the frequency of Zuri's Gabapentin while I sorted all of this out (every 6 hours instead of every 8) so he got his first "earlier" dose at 2:30. Between that and/or his massage this morning, when we got up for a walk at 5 he was bouncing off the walls. He actually tried to take off running when we got outside on leash. :-o She also told me that she is really not a fan of Tramadol so recommended leaving that where it is, but is a huge fan of Gabapentin and gave me good information about safety and how to introduce dosage increases to reduce the possibility of any side effects. She also suggested I add in Amantadine right away. I have had it on hand since Zuri's radiation, but was nervous because the bottle lists dizziness as a possible side effect and I don't know many people who have used it. She said she's not had a patient have side effects from it and it's either an it helps or it doesn't med, but there was basically no harm in trying. So I will add that in tomorrow to see if it gives him a boost. She mentioned Tylenol as an option down the road as well, but didn't think we needed to make additional changes now. Overall she was very in tune with my comfort level in terms of not exchanging quality of life for pain management so I feel very comfortable with her recommendations.

 

She also gave me very good news on the butt licking. She expressed his glands and did a rectal exam, but there was nothing wrong. It's just irritated and inflamed from licking, so I'm going to continue the epsom salt soaks and apply hydrocortisone and try really hard to keep him from licking (easier said than done when I go to work).

 

Her general overall assessment was that she thought it was perfectly fine if I wanted to make the decision to let him go at any point, but that she didn't feel there was any sense of urgency and she felt his pain management was very good. She said he looked better than virtually all of her osteo clients and also pointed to some specifics like how he will prop himself on his "bad" leg in a very awkward angle that puts a lot of pressure on it that she said was unusual for a dog with a tumor in his location.

 

I almost didn't have her come and was just going to take Z to my regular vet to have his anal glands looked at. I am SO glad I did. She is a fantastic resource and it was incredibly helpful to have an unbiased professional opinion about his comfort level. The fact that there is nothing serious going on with his anal glands is also a huge relief. Obviously if he had an abscess or even worse a tumor that would have been very different. So I'm cautiously optimistic though I realize that there are many things that can still go wrong.

 

So that's where we're at. I feel a definite sense of relief, but I'm also trying to temper my optimism because I know how unpredictable osteo can be and she and I both agreed that the stairs are a big factor in our case. I also think that if we see any length of steady improvement we should consider an x-ray to make sure there isn't a significant increase in damage to the bone and risk for fracture because that is the last thing I want. But for now, we continue to take it day by day.

 

 

 

Lori, I have been thinking about you, Cecil and the rest of your family this entire time. In the midst of our potentially brief reprieve I feel heartbroken for you. Continuing to send comforting thoughts to both you and Miriam as well, and hope that you will check in when you're ready.

Edited August 23, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Guest MnMDogs]

Jen, I'm so glad to see this update. I can tell you we had Mork on amantadine for a few months before he died, and he had zero side effects.

 

I also really appreciate you taking the time to write that all down. I'll probably ask about adding amantadine to Macy's regimen and perhaps increase her gabapentin dose frequency. Is Zuri on 300mg 4 times a day?

[NeylasMom]

He's on 400 mg Gabapentin and we just switched from every 8 hrs to every 6 hrs.

 

There are a lot of details about the pain meds that I didn't share because I doubted anyone would want to read the novella as it is but I'm happy to try my best to share what she said accurately in case it's helpful moving forward for you or anyone else.

 

And thank you, that's good to know about Mork and the Amantadine. How is Macy doing?

Edited August 23, 2016 by NeylasMom

[4My2Greys]

I wanted everyone to know that you are all in my thoughts.

Jen, I am happy that you are able to have more time with Zuri and at the same time, Lori, I feel such a sadness for you and Miriam and your loss of Cecil and Roux.

This thread is a tough place to be.

[Guest Roux]

So good to hear from you, Jen, and to hear about the different perspective you gained from the home vet today. I am so happy to know that Zuri's anal issue is just a minor problem, and that the vet's assessment was so positive. I am glad you no longer feel the pressure to make this decision quickly.

 

Once Crouton was diagnosed with osteo, I did everything I could to educate myself as quickly as I could so I could make informed decisions. I don't remember where I read this or even how accurately I remember it, but someone wrote that among greyhounds in the UK, approximately 22% will get cancer of some kind, and 90% of those cancers will be osteo. Another US study indicated that of the dogs they studied with osteo, 6.3% were greyhounds. But, it doesn't matter to me whether the liklihood is 6% or 22% or higher, because I will continue to adopt greyhounds as long as I can. What is important to me is that I prepare myself to be a better caretaker if I have to help another hound with this disease. All of this is just to say that I am more motivated than ever to learn everything I can about better pain relief, and any details you would like to share would be very welcome.

 

I wanted everyone to know that you are all in my thoughts.
Jen, I am happy that you are able to have more time with Zuri and at the same time, Lori, I feel such a sadness for you and Miriam and your loss of Cecil and Roux.
This thread is a tough place to be.

 

Thank you, Judy, for being here for me at Greytalk when I first sought help after Crouton's initial diagnosis. I remember you, too, said you just lost your boy to osteo last month. It is sad for us to have to bond this way, but I have so appreciated your comments through these weeks. I hope you are finding some peace after what you have been going through, as well. I would love to know something about your hound – name, what he looked like, your favorite characteristics, etc. – if you feel up to it.

 

Honestly, I don't know what I would have done through this without all of you who have written and offered support, but especially Jen and Lori (sorry for misspelling Geno earlier) who have been on this difficult journey with me, and who have allowed me to follow Cecil and Zuri's brave fights. My deepest thanks for all your help.

 

Lori, peace to you and Geno tonight.

[greysmom]

Jen, one of my girls is on codeine sulfate (30 mgs) because tramadol just does nothing for her. It's still an opiate, but it seems to be much better for her. Our Dude also came home with it after his amp. I was surprise because we'd always been given tramadol for pain, but the codeine is remarkably effective.

 

I was hoping to have a better cutting off point, but we do need to begin a new Osteo Thread Part 9. It should be up in a few minutes. This thread may remain active for a day or so, but activity and updates should be transferred to the new thread.