Space Aggression Incident

[TheFullHouse]

She sounds stressed to me when laying on her bed. Have you thought about getting her a crate? I may have missed a lot because I didn't read everyone's responses but having her own space where she doesn't have to worry about anyone disturbing her may help. I have a two year old that has started the same thing with my other dogs. She now has her crate to go to and no one is allowed to disturb her while she is in there. She feels more relaxed in there.

[a_daerr]

The other thing to consider might be eye contact. One of my guys used to be very uncomfortable with dogs/people who made prolonged eye contact with him. I suppose he felt threatened in some way. We did a lot of training with 'look at me' and 'look at that.' Lots of rewards just for giving focus and eye contact. No punishing for growling. The other piece of advice I have is not to put her bed in a place where she feels boxed in. I made that mistake with one of my dogs. I put his bed in the corner of the room, which is fine for some dogs. But I think other dogs need to see an 'escape route' so to speak. If she's in a corner and feels trapped, that could be contributing to her anxiety. The other option, as Judy mentioned, would be to try out a crate. It may make a difference if she has one place where she can retreat and feel safe when something makes her nervous.

 

I applaud you for keeping Cleo and working through her issues. Not an easy thing to do.

[NeylasMom]

The other thing to consider might be eye contact. One of my guys used to be very uncomfortable with dogs/people who made prolonged eye contact with him. I suppose he felt threatened in some way. We did a lot of training with 'look at me' and 'look at that.' Lots of rewards just for giving focus and eye contact. No punishing for growling. The other piece of advice I have is not to put her bed in a place where she feels boxed in. I made that mistake with one of my dogs. I put his bed in the corner of the room, which is fine for some dogs. But I think other dogs need to see an 'escape route' so to speak. If she's in a corner and feels trapped, that could be contributing to her anxiety. The other option, as Judy mentioned, would be to try out a crate. It may make a difference if she has one place where she can retreat and feel safe when something makes her nervous.

 

I applaud you for keeping Cleo and working through her issues. Not an easy thing to do.

I started to type something to this effect and then quit because really, I think you need the private consult. But that was my thought too regarding the 2 incidents you just described with the growling was that you may have made prolonged eye contact, which in the dog world is actually an aggressive behavior. Our dogs typically learn to love eye contact because it's associated with other positive things, just like some might learn to also love hugging, but neither are inherently non-threatening things to do to a dog.

[Guest NRN13]

I do think she must feel stressed when she's on her bed, for whatever reason. Despite the endless naps and roaching! The bed is in the family room, against the wall. Not in a corner, but against the TV stand on one side and the wall the other. Not sure there is a better place in this room, and I think she wants to be here, where we are. There is a spot between the family room and kitchen that I could try. That way she can still see us but it's different. It's on the tile floor though, and seems more in the way of everything.

 

She has a bed in our room upstairs, which she sometimes goes to. We are not usually up there and it's always available. The bedroom door is open. we just took her crate down last week. We kept it in our room since we got her. Door open and she could go in and out as she pleased during the day (she never did). We put her in there at night in the beginning and closed the door. She did fine. But then she started wanting to stay out at night (on her bed in our room) and we let her. She did great. So we left the crate available and open for weeks. She never ever went in. She loves her bed up there and we finally put the crate away.

 

Just had her at the vet a few weeks ago for diarhhea, which has since cleared up. Did stool sample, examined her, and all was well. The vet spent a lot of time with us talking about food, allergies (she is licking and biting certain spots), etc. Clean bill of health as far as we could see.

[Guest NRN13]

Neyla'smom, how do I get the vet to consult with that behaviorist? And I have not told my vet about the bite.

[Acadianarose]

There are times when Payton is in a bad mood, for lack of better word. Generally it is because the cats keep harassing him, but sometimes I don't know why he is so grumpy. My daughter has a greyhound and she said he does the same thing. It's like something happens and they are done for the day.

 

I don't know if that is the "stressors" that Batmom mentioned, but we just leave him alone when he is in that mood.

 

I do believe that you should consult with an expert. We don't have any experts in our area so I couldn't find anyone. But I am wondering if she is growling because she is picking up on your emotions. Also, eye contact would really scare Payton. We have worked a lot on "watch me"

 

Hugs again.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Don't know if this might apply for what happened to you, but I was wondering if maybe the severity of this event might have been increased because of simple "bad timing"? What I mean is, I've nearly gotten a broken nose and black eye simply due to my head being in the wrong place at the wrong time during greetings or during play. For instance, the guys get really happy and waggy when I get up in the morning and when I come home, and if I don't pay attention to the timing of when I go in to plant a kiss or a pet, I get a happy nose poke right in the eye. A couple of days ago, Zariel's head banged my nose pretty good when we were playing. Not his fault, I just missed on my timing. I wonder if maybe she meant to definitely scare you away and tell you that she was not comfortable, but maybe didn't intend to actually damage you, which maybe got more serious if you happened to move just when she snapped. Just an idea. Hope you are getting better.

[Guest NRN13]

I don't know. The black eye is really from the force of the lunge. She hit so hard that I saw stars and did wonder if my nose was broken. I was close. But my husband was right there, and when I asked if maybe she was just giving a warning snap, he said he saw her jaws open and go for my face. The phrase he used was "clamped down" on my face. He's not a dog expert, but that's what he saw. So though I'd like to think she was just warning, the bite wounds and what my husband saw say otherwise. And maybe the other two "snaps" (to my son and husband) would've been bites had they been closer. I don't know, they are so darn fast. I do think they bite when they mean to bite, and snap when they mean to warn.

[NeylasMom]

Neyla'smom, how do I get the vet to consult with that behaviorist? And I have not told my vet about the bite.

You would just have to ask your vet to do it and give him or her the contact information. But I'm not sure you need that right now. Veterinary behaviorists generally become involved when there's a behavioral issue and either known or suspected medical issues that might be related, or when medication (anti-anxiety meds for instance) might be useful in conjunction with a behavior modification plan. The itching and licking is definitely something to keep in mind, especially if you can't get it under control with allergy medication and/or once we have a serious frost, but for now I really think your best bet is an in home consult with a professional knowledgeable about dog behavior.

[Guest Giselle]

Typically, people contact vet behaviorists on their own. They don't usually need a referral. It's not like with other areas of medicine, where the primary vet has to send records and radiographs and test results. You, the client, are the only record. Generally, primary vets don't know much about behavior, so they'll often just refer clients to a vet behaviorist/other professional behaviorist and let the client figure it out on their own. Only when medication is involved do the primary vets come back into the picture (usually).

 

Because this dog already has a bite history, I really don't feel comfortable giving advice online. Based on the frequency and escalating behaviors, I would be inclined to think that this dog is showing subtle signs of stress and anxiety that aren't being adequately addressed. As a result, she is resorting to showing more obvious signs of distress (growling, lunging) because these are the only signals that are "working". It would make sense that she feels pushed to escalate her behaviors if the core reason behind her stress/anxiety isn't being fully addressed. If she has been disturbed on her bed and feels increasingly uncomfortable, it makes sense that she'd resort to growling at people even when they're now 10 feet away. Fundamentally, this sounds like a human-dog miscommunication problem, and the best way to fix a communication problem is to have a trained professional come to your house and pinpoint the problem. I know vet behaviorists are a hefty financial investment, but I always recommend people sign up for one or two sessions and use those as a basis for whether or not they need more. It is an investment in your dog, and, if you choose a qualified professional, it should be worth the money (and more!).

 

As for the whole sidetrack about greys v. other breeds, I always say... dogs are dogs are dogs. Whether I'm working with a Pittie or Dobie or greyhound, the same "rules" apply: Dogs are sensitive to stress, and their stress-avoidance behaviors will escalate if we don't address the problem intelligently and humanely. Any dog whose subtle signals - turning away its head, freezing, staring - can escalate its behavior and bite, if we don't heed its warnings. Our job is to understand the basis of their behaviors and use creative, humane, evidence-based methods to change behavior. This is a skill and an art, however, which is why it's so important to seek the help of a professional.

[Guest NRN13]

Well, I'm not sure what the stressers are, except touching her when she's on her bed. I get that. But I don't know what else. I'm not a dog expert, but I'm doing my best to create a calm, loving environment for her. I'm watching for signs. No one goes near her bed. Yesterday Cleo growled at my son, who moved his hand too close to her when she had a ball. Nowhere near her bed. He was watching TV and reached over to pet her. No snap, just a growl. I guess she needs more space, though she came to him, he didn't go to where she was. And the behaviorist and I realized the growl at me the other day when I was looking at her across the room also involved a ball. She had been playing with it, stopped and lay down. That's when I looked over and we caught eyes and she growled. She wasn't playing with the ball nor was it in her mouth, but she had just finished. So there's the resource guarding that has gotten worse too. So no touching her or going near her when she has a toy, or just had a toy, or is near a toy. I don't even want to practice "trading up" because I don't want to get bitten again. The last time I tried (weeks ago), she growled when I offered her real BACON to trade. I did eventually trade and gave her back the bone immediately (her last rawhide).

 

I had another consult with the behaviorist yesterday. Long story short, I'm doing all the exercises she recommends. She is not very optimistic though. She suggested we get her thyroid tested before we go any further. Just to rule it out. I understand I have to push for a 4 or 5 panel study? And can my regular vet read it? And what does it involve?

[Batmom]

Thyroid:

Unless there are other indications that the dog has an endocrine problem, save your money. Contrary to popular belief, there's actually a reverse correlation between hypothyroidism and aggression -- a hypothyroid dog is LESS likely to be aggressive. Usually you start with just a T4, which is often part of a normal chemistry panel. If it's normal, you're done -- dog does not have a thyroid problem at this time. If it's low, then you'd do a full thyroid panel including fT4ed (free T4 by equilibrium dialysis -- do NOT substitute any other version) and TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone -- do NOT leave this out). Best place to send for this is MSU, Michigan State University. There's a box on the submission form that your vet can check so that the results include interpretation by one of their endocrinologists.

 

Trading up:

When you teach trading up, you start with something the dog doesn't want. I usually start with something the dog won't even mouth, such as an old washcloth. Set it in front of the dog, wait a beat, say "Drop it!" followed quickly by picking up the washcloth + "Good dog!" + delectable treat. Repeat at least 5 times. Do it a couple times a day for a couple days. You're priming the system -- teaching the dog to look at you and be happy when you say "Drop it!" After a couple days, swap out the washcloth for an object the dog STILL doesn't want but might actually touch -- an old toy the dog is no longer interested in, etc. Practice some more. Then move on to something the dog will take/touch but doesn't care a whole lot about. Keep practicing, gradually moving on to things the dog likes. Don't move on to the next level until you have at least 20 perfect "Drop it!"s in a row at the level you're on.

[NeylasMom]

Well, I'm not sure what the stressers are, except touching her when she's on her bed. I get that. But I don't know what else. I'm not a dog expert, but I'm doing my best to create a calm, loving environment for her. I'm watching for signs. No one goes near her bed. Yesterday Cleo growled at my son, who moved his hand too close to her when she had a ball. Nowhere near her bed. He was watching TV and reached over to pet her. No snap, just a growl. I guess she needs more space, though she came to him, he didn't go to where she was. And the behaviorist and I realized the growl at me the other day when I was looking at her across the room also involved a ball. She had been playing with it, stopped and lay down. That's when I looked over and we caught eyes and she growled. She wasn't playing with the ball nor was it in her mouth, but she had just finished. So there's the resource guarding that has gotten worse too. So no touching her or going near her when she has a toy, or just had a toy, or is near a toy. I don't even want to practice "trading up" because I don't want to get bitten again. The last time I tried (weeks ago), she growled when I offered her real BACON to trade. I did eventually trade and gave her back the bone immediately (her last rawhide).

 

I had another consult with the behaviorist yesterday. Long story short, I'm doing all the exercises she recommends. She is not very optimistic though. She suggested we get her thyroid tested before we go any further. Just to rule it out. I understand I have to push for a 4 or 5 panel study? And can my regular vet read it? And what does it involve?

What does she is not optimistic mean? Not optimistic about her being a good match for you, not optimistic that her behavior can be changed, etc.?

 

Resource guarding, to add to what Batmom said, keep the really high value items away for now. For anything else, what I would probably do is start tossing really high value food toward her at a very safe distance and then hightailing it the other way. You're just starting to build the association of you around her with an item means good things, and she keeps the item. Obviously you want to try to avoid eliciting a growl, but if she does every now and then in the midst of you doing this repeatedly, not a huge deal, give the treats anyone and toss from farther away or consider whether what she has is too high value moving forward. You may get some good practice on your aiming skills in.

[a_daerr]

She is not very optimistic though.

 

I'm sad to hear this. One of the fundamental parts to a good trainer/behaviorist/vet/professional is to be hopeful and optimistic.

I'm a firm believer that there are no "untrainable" dogs.

[Batmom]

Assume you've been talking with your adoption group about all this? It really sounds like Cleo is not the best dog for your household at this time.

[Guest k9soul]

I'm far from an expert, but this has to be causing anxiety and tension for you, and that may be playing a part in her escalating behaviors. I think it would be very understandable if you decided she might not be the best fit with your family. I don't know that the behaviorist would think she is not trainable, but she may feel she's not a good fit for your family.

[Guest NRN13]

I don't think the behaviorist thinks Cleo is untrainable. She just thinks if it's not a thyroid thing, then there's something else going on and it's not going to work out for us. Not the right fit.

 

Need to talk to the adoption group again. Just really sad and conflicted.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

Talk to the adoption group

[Guest maidmarcia]

NRN13, you are amazing...all of you guys are actually. Honestly, I don't know if I would be able to keep a dog around that attacked me. I would always be afraid and be on guard around them, waiting for a possible second attack, a misstep on my part that would lead to more. I would never ever be comfortable with that, especially if I had children in the house. If my dogs ever growled at me or gave me a hostile look, I would take immediate action. Once Licorice growled at my sister for sitting on the couch next to him and I took away the couch cushions for a week, to teach him that it's not his couch and not his house and he has to kowtow to my rules.

 

However, to those of you who have experienced this and have rehabed your dogs...huge kudos to you all!!! I am in awe of your perseverance and patience with these dogs who need extra guidance and training.

 

Also, want to add...Last month for the first time Licorice accidentally bit me, although it wasn't truly a bite. I had gotten home from work and I took him and my cockapoo outside to pee. Licorice was super excited I was home and I was getting him more excited and working him up and BAM, his mouth playfully came down on my arm. He didn't break skin but I was bruised. I think he doesn't know the power of his snapping jaws. Sometimes I hear him snapping his teeth together when he's excited and I think of how much damage he could potentially do if he attacked me.

 

On the hand, my cockapoo play bites me all the time but I have no stress and anxiety of it because his bite is tiny and relatively gentle. I think maybe that you might be getting stressed and anxious because you know the damage your dog can do. You have experienced it first hand. Now it's probably all that you can think about when your dog misbehaves even in the smallest way. She probably feels and knows it too...and she is feeding off of it, unfortunately.

 

I have no words of advice. I'm sorry you're going through this. So many greyhounds don't have space aggression and are gentle as lambs. It's upsetting that this had to happen to you.

 

*Hugs*

Edited November 13, 2013 by maidmarcia

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

The dog did not "attack" her. She was in the dogs space and the dog bit her. An attack belies malicious intent. The hound was minding its own business and was not wandering the house looking for someone to bite.

[Guest maidmarcia]

The dog did not "attack" her. She was in the dogs space and the dog bit her. An attack belies malicious intent. The hound was minding its own business and was not wandering the house looking for someone to bite.

 

 

Yes, it was an attack. The definition of attack is "an aggressive or violent act against a person or place" (among others). Whatever the reason was for it, it is still an attack. You can explain a logical reason saying, "It's space guarding" or "resource guarding", and that may be exactly it, but for the owner in the moment it can be an emotional thing and it can 100% feel like an ATTACK. Yes, it wasn't random, but it was still a violent move and it's scary and difficult to deal with.

Edited November 13, 2013 by maidmarcia

[Guest k9soul]

Maidmarcia, I'm glad you've had pretty smooth sailing with Licorice, but I'd like to point out that growling sometimes is borne of anxiety or nervousness, and not necessarily because they feel they "own" the home. I agree it was best if he growled on the couch to have him get off and not use it for a while, but I think people often misunderstand the source of a dog's communication or anxiety, attributing it to dominance and hierarchy issues.

 

I've been thinking about NRN13. I hope you are doing okay with whatever route you have decided. My heart has really gone out to you.

[Guest maidmarcia]

Maidmarcia, I'm glad you've had pretty smooth sailing with Licorice, but I'd like to point out that growling sometimes is borne of anxiety or nervousness, and not necessarily because they feel they "own" the home. I agree it was best if he growled on the couch to have him get off and not use it for a while, but I think people often misunderstand the source of a dog's communication or anxiety, attributing it to dominance and hierarchy issues.

 

I've been thinking about NRN13. I hope you are doing okay with whatever route you have decided. My heart has really gone out to you.

 

You're absolutely right, there is a huge difference with growling for surprise and anxiousness and growling out of dominance. A good example: one time Licorice was sleeping on a couch and my boyfriend's friend (who doesn't have a dog and is stupid at times) popped up over the top of the couch and shouted to wake Licorice up. Immediately Licorice jerked up and growled/barked because he was startled and scared. I told this guy never to do that again. What a fool. But his growling at my sister was NOT anxiety, it was him not wanting to share HIS couch...or what he thought was HIS couch. Dogs are like people...they have different reasons for doing or expressing how they feel and I think many people do misinterpret their dog's body signals or vocal signals. I'm not foolish or naive enough to believe that Licorice would NEVER bite or growl at me, whether as a warning or not...He just simply hasn't. I've been lucky with him.

 

EDIT: I hear Licorice growling and barking at my cockapoo as a warning when Oliver is being too rambunctious or overwhelming and I take that as a normal way of communicating between them. That doesn't frighten or worry me as it never escalates due to Oliver being utterly submissive. I'm not sure exactly why Licorice has never growled at me specifically. Perhaps I've never done anything to make him pissed off

Edited November 13, 2013 by maidmarcia

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.

2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.

3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.

4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.

5. to try to destroy, especially with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.

These are from Dictionary.com. Notice the wording "to begin", you cannot begin if you are reacting to another's actions. Therefore her hound did not "attack" her, her hound reacted to a perceived threat, very different.

[Guest maidmarcia]

Some serious semantics here. I could easily find a definition that refutes your use of "to begin", but you know the simile about Internet arguments... I would feel attacked, other people may be attacked... You may not, but to each their own.

 

(Merriam Webster: attack:

to act violently against, to try to hurt, injure or destroy

to set upon or work against forcefully

 

There are so many definitions. My point is that if it feels like an attack to someone, that's how it is.)

Edited November 13, 2013 by maidmarcia