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Space Aggression Incident


Guest NRN13

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When you've reached the point where your research is making you more anxious than excited, stop researching. The "what ifs" will make you crazy, and none of them may even happen. Spoken from experience. :)

 

I agree with this 100%. The first few months Rudy was here, I actually decided to avoid T&B for a while because reading some of the problem threads were making me feel more paranoid. I did have some growling episodes with Rudy, too, some of which were pretty startling for me, but reading about other dogs' troubles, bites and so on was getting me ridiculously paranoid so I stopped for awhile. I migrated to Cute & Funny and just stayed there for awhile ;).

 

I feel much more confident and relaxed with Rudy now. MUCH of what I read here are issues that are happening within the first few weeks of a dog being home, when both human and dog are still uncertain with each other. You mention "other breeds" but a lot of it isn't at all about breed, but the fact that many dogs have been raised in a family setting since they were puppies. They were raised to be pets. Greyhounds spent the first several years of their lives in a completely different setting, and that's why that Kathleen Gilley article spoken from a racing greyhound's point of view helped me so tremendously in understanding this.

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I agree with this 100%. The first few months Rudy was here, I actually decided to avoid T&B for a while because reading some of the problem threads were making me feel more paranoid. I did have some growling episodes with Rudy, too, some of which were pretty startling for me, but reading about other dogs' troubles, bites and so on was getting me ridiculously paranoid so I stopped for awhile. I migrated to Cute & Funny and just stayed there for awhile ;).

 

I feel much more confident and relaxed with Rudy now. MUCH of what I read here are issues that are happening within the first few weeks of a dog being home, when both human and dog are still uncertain with each other. You mention "other breeds" but a lot of it isn't at all about breed, but the fact that many dogs have been raised in a family setting since they were puppies. They were raised to be pets. Greyhounds spent the first several years of their lives in a completely different setting, and that's why that Kathleen Gilley article spoken from a racing greyhound's point of view helped me so tremendously in understanding this.

 

:nod

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Payton, The Greyhound (Palm City Pelton) and Toby, The Lab
Annabella and Julietta, The Cats
At the Bridge - Abby, The GSD

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Thanks for the kind words everyone. My son was not involved in this incident. Just me. He was snapped at once. And he learned his lesson and is very respectful. I, unfortunately, did not learn the lesson!

 

And Batmom, I do appreciate your input. Who knows what was going on in Cleo's mind. But to my family (me, my husband, and one son - the other two are at college), it was a totally normal, peaceful day. We are pretty mellow, and nothing unusual had happened. And as far as "signs" from her, maybe a nanosecond as she was about to go for my face. No time to see it, process it, and react from my point of view. It happened lightening fast.

 

Ramonaghan, I totally agree about over-researching! When we were waiting for Cleo, I had to stop reading about the behavior problems and remind myself that there are thousands of greys out there without these issues. People (like me) write in when there is a problem. And thankfully, we have this forum to reach out to people and ask for help. But try to keep it in perspective.

 

But at the same time, I completely understand where Zanzibargirl is coming from. I am trying to be objective here. If I walked into a friend's house and she had been bitten by her dog in the face, I would think she was crazy for keeping her. Think about that. And actually, I might think she was crazy for having a dog nobody can ever touch when she is sleeping or laying on her bed (which is a lot of the time!)

 

But with a greyhound, we know going in that they might be like this, so we are somewhat prepared (though not quite for what I experienced). They are different. They have had a completely different experience than other dogs, and they need time and patience. They are quirky! And that is why I love greys and the reason Cleo is still here, because to be completely honest, if it were any other breed, we would have returned her yesterday. I'm just being completely honest here. All breeds can bite, but no, I would not put up with it if she were not a greyhound. I knew they can have space aggression due to their past and I broke the cardinal rule. So we are going to keep working with her, and with a trainer, and hopefully all will be well. And I have learned my lesson.

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Guest Greyt_dog_lover

Unfortunately people have the "no dog would ever bite me in my house" rule. This is an ignorant (as in uneducated) statement as every dog is different as well as every situation is different. 99% of dogs in this world are raised as human surrogates in a house from 6 weeks old. Greyhounds are not raised in this manner at all. To attempt to subject a greyhound with a totally foreign concept (being a pet) and expect them to be completely subservient from day one is ridiculous. We as the evolved species should understand the situation, history of the animal we are dealing with, and act appropriately.

 

Who cares what other people think. They don't pay your bills, or determine your happiness in life. Walk a mile in my shoes then judge me is my way of thinking.

 

Don't be afraid of your hound. You have experienced the worst that can happen. You were bit. You have lacerations and bruising. That's it. Nothing else. Don't allow fear to rule your life. The worst has happened and you are still here and able to do everything you did a day ago.

 

I commend you for working through the issue, coming here for answers and not considering giving up your hound. So many others would give up in your situation. I also commend you for understanding it was your fault. Most wouldn't accept the responsibility either. I am simply trying to put things in perspective. Even though it was a traumatic experience, it was a very limited occurrence and you shouldn't fear your pup. Your girl is obviously more afraid of you than the other way around, she wouldn't have bitten you if she wasn't afraid, remember that.

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Zariel sat in the Scooby shelter for five years because he was so terrified of humans that when you tried to approach him, first he tried to melt into the wall, and when that didn't work, the teeth would come out with very definite and serious growls. If you still approached, you would get snapped or bitten. But I could see the angel underneath the fear. When he came home, luckily he had Zuki to bond with, and they bonded very strongly. He came with a collar that never came off for about four months, because he was traumatized about anything going over his head (if you know something about galgos you can understand this). Luckily, he was ok with me attaching and detaching the leash, and he liked the walks, and sometimes he would let me brush him after watching me brush Zuki and seeing how Zuki enjoyed it. For the first 8-9 months, that was about the most contact we had. I never tried to touch him and never cornered him. After about 6 months, my then-BF tried to pet him when he was laying on his bed (even though I told him never to touch Zariel), and after a quick growl he got teeth on his hand, but it wasn't a "real" bite and no skin was broken. It was only after about 10 months that Zariel actually came to me for a pet. For the first 12-14 months, I never tried to pet him, and only responded if he came to me to initiate contact. That long introduction was enough so that Zariel learned that I would not harm him and he could trust me. We've been together for four years now, and the angel I knew was there has now been allowed to blossom. He is such a sweet, gentle soul. He always stays near me, loves games and fun, and cuddles with me at night.

 

If you can learn to respect Cleo's space until she has a chance to learn to trust you, you will develop a much deeper relationship. I'm sorry that you got hurt. I hope that things will go better from now on.

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Ramonaghan, I totally agree about over-researching! When we were waiting for Cleo, I had to stop reading about the behavior problems and remind myself that there are thousands of greys out there without these issues. People (like me) write in when there is a problem. And thankfully, we have this forum to reach out to people and ask for help. But try to keep it in perspective.

 

But at the same time, I completely understand where Zanzibargirl is coming from. I am trying to be objective here. If I walked into a friend's house and she had been bitten by her dog in the face, I would think she was crazy for keeping her. Think about that. And actually, I might think she was crazy for having a dog nobody can ever touch when she is sleeping or laying on her bed (which is a lot of the time!)

 

But with a greyhound, we know going in that they might be like this, so we are somewhat prepared (though not quite for what I experienced). They are different. They have had a completely different experience than other dogs, and they need time and patience. They are quirky! And that is why I love greys and the reason Cleo is still here, because to be completely honest, if it were any other breed, we would have returned her yesterday. I'm just being completely honest here. All breeds can bite, but no, I would not put up with it if she were not a greyhound. I knew they can have space aggression due to their past and I broke the cardinal rule. So we are going to keep working with her, and with a trainer, and hopefully all will be well. And I have learned my lesson.

Oh, I completely understand where you're both coming from as well. The difference, in my mind, is that this actually has happened to you now, and so your research and distress are warranted to some extent, whereas worrying before something happens serves neither the adopter nor the dog. I was totally guilty of this, and Sweep probably felt that anxiety for the first few weeks until we finally realized, "Huh. She's not doing any of that stuff we put all that time and emotional energy into before she even arrived." Staying calm is definitely easier said than done for some of us researchaholics! Thank God we did not turn her into a basket case.

 

Anyway, I sympathize with your situation (and imagine I'd feel very much the way you do) and really commend you for the steps you're taking with her. I hope it all works out. Sounds like Cleo landed with good people. :)

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Rachel with littermates Doolin and Willa, boss cat Tootie, and feline squatters Crumpet and Fezziwig.
Missing gentlemen kitties MudHenry, and Richard and our beautiful, feisty, silly
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greyt_dog_lover, I pet the dog and touched her collar, not my son. I was bitten, not him. And I don't think I'm blowing this out of proportion. I will be off of work again tomorrow because I don't want to face a classroom of kindergarteners with a big black eye, and a bandage on my lip and nose. My face hurts. And I can't really smile . I look like someone punched me in the face. And I'm trying not to take it personally, but I can't help it. Even though it was clearly my fault, I'm still really bummed.

 

And I have to admit, that like Brandiandwe above, I do feel fear now. And who likes to fear their pet? Seriously, it's not a good feeling.

 

I really appreciate all the support, advice, and tips from everyone. I spoke with a wonderful trainer today and do feel a little better. We'll continue to work with Cleo and will take it day by day. No plans to rehome, as of yet.

 

I don't think you're blowing this out of proportion in any way.

It sucks to be scared of your own dog. We have a grey that sometimes makes bite attempts with no warning, something normal like wiping his feet, that we do every day. Once in a while, with no calming signals or body language, it strikes him wrong. Nevermind something like cleaning a wound or going to the vet--those get a bite attempt (or connect) every time.

I think it's really strong of you that you want to continue working with Cleo, but really, don't worry about re-homing... If you and your family are up for the challenge of training him, you've gotten great advice and are working with a trainer will help you figure it out. If it is ever too much, there is no shame in re-homing a dog that might do better somewhere else.

Just wanted to say that I understand your fear and worries. And I'm sorry you're going through this.

One thing that has helped us greatly is getting a fabric muzzle. The basket muzzle is wonderful for all purpose and in the backyard type of stuff, but what do you do when the dog has a paw injury, skin tear, or anything that requires handling? When you don't trust your dog, it gets hard. Obviously you don't want to use it all the time, but when you are dealing with a dog that can bite due to fear/space, it might be helpful to get a fabric muzzle that literally holds the dogs mouth closed, like the vets have. You can get them on ebay, and it will really help quell your fear if Cleo gets an injury or needs to be handled while you sort everything out.

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Bri and Mike with Boo Radley (Williejohnwalker), Bubba (Carlos Danger), and the feline friends foes, Loois and Amir

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I wouldn't recommend a fabric muzzle. The basket muzzle provides protection from a snap AND allows the dog to pant, which can be crucial to maintaining body temperature when the dog is stressed.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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I wouldn't recommend a fabric muzzle. The basket muzzle provides protection from a snap AND allows the dog to pant, which can be crucial to maintaining body temperature when the dog is stressed.

 

I recommended the fabric muzzle ONLY for injuries, nail trims, etc. Obviously the fabric muzzle isn't for every day wear. The basket muzzle is great but doesn't provide protection in a hairy scenario. For someone who has been bitten, a fabric muzzle (for 15 minute type of things) is a godsend.

Basket muzzle for normal wear, but it is HUGELY beneficial to have a fabric muzzle onhand for "situations".

Edited by brianamac

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Bri and Mike with Boo Radley (Williejohnwalker), Bubba (Carlos Danger), and the feline friends foes, Loois and Amir

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I can't see how you could get bitten through a basket muzzle unless it wasn't properly fitted and the dog got it off, which could as easily happen with a fabric muzzle.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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I can't see how you could get bitten through a basket muzzle unless it wasn't properly fitted and the dog got it off, which could as easily happen with a fabric muzzle.

Um, teeth still come through a basket muzzle. Properly fitted. Obviously, if you've ever cat tested a dog, you know this. Basket muzzles are great for every day wear, like I said. Fabric muzzles are good for hairy situations with dogs that are known biters.

Nothing to argue about here. A dog that bites can inflict damage through a basket muzzle. Keep a fabric one on hand for treating injuries. End of story. Christ.

Edited by brianamac

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Bri and Mike with Boo Radley (Williejohnwalker), Bubba (Carlos Danger), and the feline friends foes, Loois and Amir

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Well, I disagree. I would never put a fabric muzzle on a dog if a basket was available, and certainly not an injured, distressed, panting dog for 15 minutes. I don't know what type of basket muzzle you're using where you can get that kind of injury. With a standard US kennel muzzle, I've never had a dog do more than snag a bit of loose shirt, and they have to work hard to do that.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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I have never had a greyhound. But I did foster "hard to place/Dangerous Dogs" for a rescue group. Pit Bulls (which we had a house full of already)... Dobies... Rotties... you know, the ones who are misunderstood and judged unfairly.

 

and I understand a racer has an unusual life until it is retiered ..... and that life is what brings about these learned "survival" behaviors.... and trust issues. new experiences are hard enuff for a pup, but when they are close to two (ADULTS) and experiencing all kinds of new things, it must be hard and confusing for them, and yes, even scary. They must be very unsure and insecure faced with all this that is nothing like what they have experienced so far in life.

 

my general rule, when meeting any dog... especially one I don't know... is.... I sit on the floor... and keep my eyes on the ground and stay quiet. the dog is let into the room.... and I let the dog control the situation..... When a dog doesn't yet "trust".... a human's height and general... I'm the human and that makes me the boss... attitude can be a stressor in itself. ((I am not saying this is wrong... I"m not trying to argue.... and I don't want to fight with anyone... and by all means, discuss this with the trainer you've brought in to work with you.... and I can tell you, in my home, everyone knows i'm the boss... just takes the other humans longer to figure out, cuz they aren't as smart as dogs... ))

 

if faced with this dog at this time.... I would totally change tracts. her Bed is in the corner of the room or i'd move it there.... go sit across the room from her... on the floor.... at first ignore her... till you notice her watching you... trying to figure out what you are doing... esp. if there is a couch or something mostly blocking her view of you... that may make her VERY curious to see what you are doing on the other side....then every now and again, glance at her or maybe peek around the couch at her .... my guess is, eventually, she will get up and come over to figure out what you are doing and initiate contact.... then ask her... can I touch/pet/love you love you?... and if she shows no signs of stress, very lightly touch her and stroke her, talk to her in soft calm voice... (I know, I sound like a complete cracker... but) tell her softly, that you know you were wrong, and you are sorry, and tell her how it hurt your feelings when she bit you... tell her you would never ever hurt her... just have a discussion with her... and let your emotion come thru in a soft way... don't be angry... wait till you are just hurt by what happened and not angry about it.... ((( I realize that dogs don't understand english... but they understand emotion... and body language.... they know what you are trying to communicate when you talk from the heart, they really really do...)))

 

I would do this every day... or even multiple times a day... sitting on the ground... and every three days or so, pick a spot just a little closer to her.. NOT a lot... JUST A LITTLE...It may take you a month or more to get all the way across the room.... and sit on the floor beside/near her. don't try to initiate... let her initiate... ... and when she comes to you, have a Positive loving talk... or tell her about your bad day... cry on her shoulder when you need to release pain and stress...tell her how you are feeling.... tell her a funny story... sing to her.... (my dogs like "You are my sunshine")..... anything except angry and agressive.... those are two things you never want her to associate with these times....and pet her... in time, kiss and cuddle her beside you, or open your legs so she can lay between them.... or across your lap.... I think, when you are sad, your dog knows it, and expressing it to them, being vulnerable enuff to cry all over them, it makes them feel needed... being able to share your joy with them is special too... and really, this is you sharing YOURSELF with them.... and eventually they get that.

 

When you are on her level it is easier for her to trust you... as you are not as intimidating.... you come across as an equal if not a submissive ..... when you are communicating and she hears the love and yes, even respect and admiration in your voice.... she will respond in kind... if at any time she seems uneasy with how close you've sat down, slowly push backwards to a distance she is comfortable with and go with that....

 

There were two "abused dogs with ISSUES" that we took in... (not at the same time, mind you.. They were about a year apart.) the one, we begged for, as they were considering putting him down right off the bat... we said, no... bring him to us... if for some reason it doesn't work, you can put him down later. let us try at least.

 

so they brought them to us... and I did this sit and talk to them every day... at least once, sometimes more. don't get me wrong, the rest of the day, I was on my feet, or in my chair or on the couch or bed, and I was the Human in charge... but they learned that I would talk to them and for 10 or 15 min a day, we were equals, or if they liked, they could be the boss... and it sped up the bonding process. and eventually, they would come sit with on the couch, and they learned our "pack" would pile up on the bed for sleeping, and they would pile up on the couch for napping, and that everyone loved eachother.... no dogs were abused, every every every dog, was loved and lavished with physical affection, and a lot of talking to. and when the trust comes, it's like they are reborn... A bud that blooms into a beautiful flower..... one of those dogs had a happy ending, the other's ending was heartbreaking and tragic. but both were like new dogs, and both were loved when they were in our homes and for the first time in their lives, they experienced being cherished and valued. I think they healed a lot while they were there.

 

and I do not care WHO you are, WHAT SPECIES you are, or WHAT BREED you are.... all living things NEED to be valued and cherished and loved... and the problems they have might be difficult to work thru, but if you have between you Respect, Value, Cherished and Loved... the next obvious thing is Trust and Devotion.... Those two are a human's reward for showering the first four on their Life Partners with four legs. IN MY HUMBLE OPPINION.

 

I appologize if I have offended anyone by offering an opinion on something when I have not owned a grey hound.... and by all means, like I said above, talk to your trainer, or show her this msg and get her opinion on it before you try it, cuz I don't want to tell you to do something that might counter her approch.

 

I wish your whole family the best in this. <<hugs>>

 

Lex

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Guest PiagetsMom

I'm going to chime in briefly here - there are others here who've had incidents with their pups who don't necessarily post in every thread like this, but I've been following your thread and I will.

 

I had a similar incident with my boy Mirage. Like your Cleo, he'd been here for around 3 months, and it also involved his bed and his space - and it was absolutely my fault. I was lucky in that he didn't break skin, only left a red mark on my brow. Even realizing afterwards that I'd done something really not so smart, I was still completely shocked that he had done it, and hurt that he would do that to me. I don't want to say that I was afraid of him (although for a short period of time I probably was) but afterwards I was definitely somewhat wary around him, and if I was at all uncomfortable with him in a certain situation, I used his muzzle.....not so much for Mirage because he'd quickly forgotten it, but for my comfort and peace of mind and to help me to relax around him.....because I couldn't let it go as quickly.

 

It was a totally "fixable" problem - I stayed off his bed and respected his space - and made sure that anyone coming into the house did the same. Visitors did not approach Mirage, they were told to wait for him to come to them, and that's served us well.

 

I want to say to you that I understand how you're feeling :grouphug - I felt much the same way when it happened to me. I also want to tell you that we've just marked Mirage's 5th Gotcha day, and I can't even put into words how much I love this boy :heart He's become my shadow, my constant companion. I still do respect his comfort zone, although it's become a much smaller comfort zone to have to respect, and there are things that I've done with/to other pups that I would not do with/to him because he's not that kind of pup......and, that's okay.

 

I hope working with a trainer will give you some options and direction as to how to move forward with Cleo, and I wish you luck!

Edited by PiagetsMom
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Lex, helpful advice except that this dog has a specific issue. She is affectionate away from her bed and has been in the home for three months.

 

yes... I understood the situation as explained by NRN13.

 

This dog, raised from birth to race, in a totally diff environment from any other pet.... has SURFACE issues.

 

The Space Agression issue, of being touched when on her bed. (I understand) -- That is a SURFACE issue.

 

I also understand the REASON she has the Space Agression Issue is her upbringing, followed by being retiered into a home and family and surrounded by a multitude of new things she's never seen smelled heard or felt before.... and then you ask yourself, Does NRN13 know what kind of interaction this dog had with the handlers at the tracks? how did they treat the dogs? what were their correction methods? what "interactions or occurances" with dog handlers at the track or other dogs housed next to her have led to this space agression. This is the UNDERLYING issue.

 

The way around it....over it... thru it.... give dog time to adjust, and learn, and TRUST... All relationships have to be built and worked on, no matter who the two entities are... Person to Person, Animal to Animal, Person to Animal... whatever. The idea I suggested, is to be the first one to show TRUST in this relationship.... Trust her enuff to come down to her level for 10 or 15 min a day, and be vulnerable enough to expose yourself in an emotional range... happy, sad, funny, silly, concerned, sympathetic, sometimes appologetic, greatful, loving, etc... and BUILD the relationship... and with it trust will follow.

 

Nobody knows how this will resolve, it could be that years from now, Mom might not be able to touch Cleo when she's in her bed, but perhaps she will be okay to sit close to it, and Cleo will come out of the bed and sit with Mom and they will have their chat, and then both will go to bed.

 

Cleo may never get over this.... some scars (for Humans or Animals) run bone deep, and emotional ones are the hardest to work thru...... but the one result I can guarentee you, is that Cleo will get to know her Mom better, Cleo will return every ounce of effort her Mom puts into their relationship, and the Trust will come, they will find a way thru it. Mom will show Cleo that however other Humans have reacted or treated her in the past is not how she will be treated now. However Humans allowed other animals to interact with Cleo at the track, that is not what will be allowed to happen now. Cleo's Mom will show her a new world, and they will discover their way thru it together.

 

that was all I was saying.

 

again, i'm sorry if I upset anyone. I'll keep my 2 cents outta it now. =)

 

Lex

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No Lex, I appreciate your input! You are echoing what others have said about building trust on both of our parts. And time. And patience. Thank you for chiming in :)

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Would we tolerate this from ANY other breed?? Sorry had to vent - too many similar stories on this board are making me anxious about fostering... :(

nRN13 - my heart goes out to you - I just don't know what I would do in your situation. To me - no biting is the ultimate golden rule....

 

That is an excellent question, Zanzibargirl. I can't tell you how the rest of the world feels, but I will tell you how I feel.

 

No Biting was the golden rule in my house.... and then one day, a friend of mine who worked for a rescue org came to me and said, Hey, Lynn... Would you consider taking a pitty we just rescued? My boss is considering just putting him down, because she doesn't have any fosters that will work with pits or dobies or rotties because of the "danger" the breeds impose and insurance issues. This dog has been horribly abused, and shuffled around for the 3 years he's been alive and he has major issues, malnutrition and agression among them.... I told her I would call her back.

 

I talked to my husband. and he agreed we should call and arrange to start doing this work. He agreed that our family, human and dog, had enough love to share it with another creature from god, and perhaps we were ment to make a difference in this dog's life. So I called my friend's boss and begged her not to put down this dog and let us take him.

 

I am not going to tell you the whole story, cuz every time I post it looks like a book to me and i'm beginning to think when ppl see my name on a post they groan... =)

 

What I learned was.....FACT: Both my husband and I are "broken" creatures. We come from abusive backgrounds and we both have major trust issues... FACT: nobody understands a "broken" creature better than another "broken" creature that can relate, sympathise, and understand in a way that someone who has not been abused or victimized may not be able to.

 

that no biting golden rule... became a no biting guideline..... because, regarless of breed or species, when some person or animal is DEEPLY FEARFUL and FEELS THREATENED, they will lash out. People can do it with hands, words, and any thing at hand they can use as a weapon.... a dog has, bark, growl, teeth, and sometimes paws....

 

I've had dogs attempt to bite... and at that time, I gave them the DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER IT LOOK, dropped to the ground on their level.... and said NO BITING (in the no-no voice), GIVE KISSES (in the happy/love you voice) and would smile at them... (which usually got me a weird look in the beginning...) The dog learned if they showed me agression out of fear, I would come down to their level, let them be in control, and give them affection instead of intimidation... and they learned to SKIP the agression, and their fear lessened.... they learned, if the end result was love and comfort and affection, to just go for that instead of being agressive. ((Lets face it, you are in the street and someone walks up behind you in the dark, you are affraid -- turn and YELL in a threatening mannor and take up an agressive stance ready to defend yourself... then, you see that what you perceived as a threat was in fact a friend, and you relax and greet them....))

 

This is not to say I have not been bitten. but it was not by a resuce. it was not by a dog who had been "broken" and brought into our home to heal and grow and learn to love.... it was my Suzy. She was cherished from the day I helped her mommy push her out, and clean her off.... (Yes, my female pitt bull allowed me to help her deliver 11 pups... that is something a female pitt will normally not do...) Suzy had grown old... and she had been "training" my Olivia to take her place... and the day she bit me, it was her telling me she retired. She was hurting that day and i'd given her meds... and something had upset me, and I went to find her in the livingroom, and I reached down, and leaned over to kiss her, and she went to snap in my face, and made contact, slightly breaking the skin and .... welll, I was horrified. taken aback. so deeply hurt. I realized later, this was her way of forcing me to go to Olivia for my comfort. It wasn't that she didn't love me. It's that she could not do her job anymore. and I eventually understood it. but it took time.

 

SO, only YOU can decide what you will or will not tolerate from ANY breed you bring into your home. Greys are not the only ones that would bite. I promise you, EVERY dog will bite if the circumstance presents itself and they feel it is the correct action to take at the time -- just as any human would respond with agression and action if they were affraid and felt threatened.... And, some bites are not MENT to be a bite... sometimes the dog intends to snap, but makes contact accidentally. The question is, do you care enough to understand the background of the dog in question, the reasons why it may have happened, and can you HEAR what the dog was trying to communicate to you.

 

Lex

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I know all dog breeds can bite. Because I know greys can have issues with their beds, and I broke the rule about that, I take responsibility for this. But it still is scary. I would absolutely not feel comfortable right now getting down on the floor trying to communicate with her. I'm walking on eggshells with her right now. I don't know details of her upbringing at the track, but I do care enough to try to work with her through her issues. I really do love her. And I understand the whole bed thing, it makes sense, but I really hope it goes away with time, patience and bonding. Or at least that if someone should get too close by accident or whatever, that there would be a warning growl or something other than a bite in the face. But I will keep people away from her when she's on her bed or I"ll put her in my room or in her crate. I worry that something different will come up that she's uncomfortable with, that I don't know about it, and she will bite someone. Today I looked over at her - I was not near her bed (neither was she) and she was staring at me. I looked at her very briefly and as I looked away, I heard a very low growl. And it reminded me of another time that she was watching my son eating a chicken wing in the kitchen. My son was standing at the counter eating and she stared and then growled at him. A very soft, low growl. My son wasn't even looking at her. He moved away and we ignored it but now that I think about it, is this normal? The more I think about it, the more I think she must really have anxieties under the surface. I posted a few weeks ago about her licking and biting certain spots and creating bald spots. The vet thought it was itching and allergies (and it does seem to be better with antihistamines), but maybe it's all stress/anxiety?

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Stress/anxiet..... that is possible. it is disturbing the low growling. ((disturbing as in a problem/communication from her that needs to be solved...) is that something "NEW" since the bite? or was that happening before the bite and just continuing now?

 

you said your son was eating? were you also eating at the time? it could be a straight out food issue, or it could be as simple as someone doing something everytime they were eating... (for example meal time at the track for the employees, and some incendent happening over and over again that effected the dogs...) ????

 

does she also make your son and/or husband nervous since the incidents? it could simply be that everyone is a bit wary and fearful (even if they don't realize it), and she's picking up on that and it makes HER wary of the person she's picking up on...

 

it's very hard to tell without being there.

 

You said she had "normal/affectionate" interactions in the past, is she still acting that way and only occasionally has these negitive communications?

 

<<<<HUGS AND SUPPORT TO THE WHOLE FAMILY>>> Prayers....

 

Lex

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Today I looked over at her - I was not near her bed (neither was she) and she was staring at me. I looked at her very briefly and as I looked away, I heard a very low growl. And it reminded me of another time that she was watching my son eating a chicken wing in the kitchen. My son was standing at the counter eating and she stared and then growled at him. A very soft, low growl. My son wasn't even looking at her. He moved away and we ignored it but now that I think about it, is this normal? The more I think about it, the more I think she must really have anxieties under the surface. I posted a few weeks ago about her licking and biting certain spots and creating bald spots. The vet thought it was itching and allergies (and it does seem to be better with antihistamines), but maybe it's all stress/anxiety?

It could be. Your best bet here is a qualified behaviorist, or possibly a veterinary behaviorist although those can be prohibitively costly for some people. However, your vet may be able to consult with a veterinary behaviorist without an additional charge to you. I know we have 2 in my area in MD and one only does home consults, while the other has a facility but will consult directly with vets for no fee. So I would explore that.

 

Oh wait, I had forgotten that you're in my area. Here's the information for the one who consults with vets:

 

Dr. Meyer

http://www.veterinarybehaviorclinic.com/index.html

 

And again, let me know if you need recs on a behaviorist/trainer. I know you are in contact with one recommended by your group so you may already have a good resource, but if you hear anything about dominance, being alpha, etc. please run here and let me give you a better rec. ;)

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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I have the name of a trainer our adoption group works with (who gave me a free phone consult the other day and was helpful and familiar with greys) , and the trainer who we are doing obedience with. Or should I talk to the vet? And thank you Neyla's mom for the name you gave. I am so grateful for all the help here and am listening, believe me! I'm just not sure who I should go to for help. And unfortunately, I do have to consider cost.

 

So over the course of the 3 months we have had her, we had the incident where she growled at my son with the food. That was when we first got her. We didn't think much of it. Then the 2 snapping incidents, and then the bite. Then today's growl at me. It sounds like a lot when I list these incidents, but really most of the time she is great. Happily playing with a toy right now. Comes to the door to see us when we get home, tail wagging. No separation anxiety that we can see. Not destructive, etc. Comes to us for quick pets. Follows us around. Sleeps and eats beautifully. Loves her walks. Happily greets everyone who comes in, strangers we meet on the street, and other dogs. Seems comfortable. And remember, she's young. Just turned 2.

 

My son and husband are not nervous, but I definitely am. Can't help it.

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Has she had any health issues? Any reason to think she might be in pain? Have you had an exam and baseline blood work/urinalysis done?

 

If all signs point to her being healthy and fit, then I would go with an in home (if possible) eval with a skilled behaviorist to start and go from there.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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