Advice On Focus Training - Stubborn Dog

[NeylasMom]

 

thats pretty much my boy !! except he goes into statue mode usually but a passing dog sends him into "must back out of this harness and run"..

 

so yea we have been working on this inside. with treats, outside, dinner, walk time, anything he wants becomes an exercise. i am pleasantly surprised how fast he picked up looking at me gets him the treat!! now that people here have helped me with a better way i am super optimistic about how well he will pick it up

If your ultimate goal is to work on fear or anxiety issues, then you should probably consider other ways to address those issues. I think what you're working on is excellent and I would continue with it, but if your dog is anxious outside, you will also want to work on changing how your dog feels in those situations by pairing the scary stuff with good stuff (ie. high value food). If your dog is unable to take the food, he's likely "over threshold", in other words he can't handle being that close to what triggers his anxiety and you're doing too much too soon. Alternatively if just being outside is enough to make him statue, then you may need the help of something to calm him, whether that be something "natural" like an herbal calming agent or chinese meds or a pharmaceutical while you do the training. Without more specifics about what your dog's triggers are, its hard to give specific advice, but I think you might need a bigger picture approach here.

[Guest k9soul]

I've been reading a book by John Bradshaw, In Defence of Dogs, and he illustrates that even in natural wolf packs (noncaptive) the alpha stuff is pretty much nonsense. It's all about what a dog learns is the most rewarding action to take, and we have to find ways to make the behaviors we desire the most rewarding.

[Guest VelvetOkie]

Batmom, Krissy, and Giselle are three of the most knowledgable and experienced people on this forum. They have given great advice. I think that once you lose the alpha nonsense, you'll be in a better place for training. Also, I would recommend taking some time to observe and learn your dog's specific triggers and cues. What does he look like when he's stressed, scared, excited, overwhelmed? If the dog is over threshold in any of these scenarios, the training will not be effective. It's important to understand when to push their boundaries and when to say, 'This isn't working, let's try something else or stop.' Be aware of your own body language as well- it's very difficult to make any type of progress if your dog is sensing your frustration or anger. I say this because I've taken over a dozen different obedience classes with my dogs, and it still happens to me when my dog isn't quite 'getting it.'

 

Also, I don't think anyone has asked this question yet, but how long have you had this dog? I'm asking because it is so easy to fall into the trap of trying to do too much too soon with a greyhound. It took me six months to a year before I established a level of trust with my dogs to where I could clearly convey my expectations of their behavior. Just making eye contact in the beginning is a big deal. You may have to take a hundred baby steps before you can get the focus you want in a distracting situation (which is 100% normal and okay). A lot of that will come naturally when the bond is solidified, and the dog automatically looks to you for confidence and reassurance.

 

Lastly, I should mention that in the training world, greyhounds are considered one of the more 'difficult to train' breeds, so don't feel like there's anything wrong with your particular dog. They won't work out of the sheer pleasure of pleasing a human. That's just how they are. You sometimes have to get creative in order to make it an enjoyable, fun, experience. And if there ever comes a time when neither of you are having fun, then it's time to stop and reevaluate.

 

i have had him 15 months and i am his "safe place" when he gets nervous aka thunder and such so i think trust is in place. as i said in my last post, we have changed up a bit based on the advice here and things seem to going well indoors.

 

 

I've been reading a book by John Bradshaw, In Defence of Dogs, and he illustrates that even in natural wolf packs (noncaptive) the alpha stuff is pretty much nonsense. It's all about what a dog learns is the most rewarding action to take, and we have to find ways to make the behaviors we desire the most rewarding.

i hope everyone is not misunderstanding what i mean when i say alpha. it is vital that any dog see you as the aplha as in you say when they eat, go out, play etc.also you bring the food and take care of the pack. not to be misused of course, but even a child feels more comfortable when there is some one they can trust to be in charge. its a matter of being seen as kind of a matriarch type. and yes it is built on respect not dominance.

 

 

If your ultimate goal is to work on fear or anxiety issues, then you should probably consider other ways to address those issues. I think what you're working on is excellent and I would continue with it, but if your dog is anxious outside, you will also want to work on changing how your dog feels in those situations by pairing the scary stuff with good stuff (ie. high value food). If your dog is unable to take the food, he's likely "over threshold", in other words he can't handle being that close to what triggers his anxiety and you're doing too much too soon. Alternatively if just being outside is enough to make him statue, then you may need the help of something to calm him, whether that be something "natural" like an herbal calming agent or chinese meds or a pharmaceutical while you do the training. Without more specifics about what your dog's triggers are, its hard to give specific advice, but I think you might need a bigger picture approach here.

 

yes we try to avoid the situations outdoors that he has issues with. we walk opposite of where we see a lot of people or animals running around. we go away from any loud noises. but sometimes we get caught in between and cant avoid. our neighborhood has a lot of activity. we also try to pick a less busy time of day but it doesnt always works out. and he will drive us crazy if he doesnt get his walk

[NeylasMom]

 

i hope everyone is not misunderstanding what i mean when i say alpha. it is vital that any dog see you as the aplha as in you say when they eat, go out, play etc.also you bring the food and take care of the pack. not to be misused of course, but even a child feels more comfortable when there is some one they can trust to be in charge. its a matter of being seen as kind of a matriarch type. and yes it is built on respect not dominance.

This is not true. However, if you want to term how you feel, you might consider something like "benevolent leader" over alpha.

 

 

yes we try to avoid the situations outdoors that he has issues with. we walk opposite of where we see a lot of people or animals running around. we go away from any loud noises. but sometimes we get caught in between and cant avoid. our neighborhood has a lot of activity. we also try to pick a less busy time of day but it doesnt always works out. and he will drive us crazy if he doesnt get his walk

So it's good that you try to avoid the situations when you can't actively be working on training, but his behavior won't get better if you don't also actively work on changing his feelings in those situations. The simplest way is to pair whatever makes him uncomfortable with food. You'd want to break it down into individual triggers and expose him to them one at a time. For instance, if he is afraid of other dogs, then you might park yourself away from the entrance to a pet store where no one is likely to approach you and every time someone with a dog appears, feed continuously while your dog looks at the other dog. When the other dog goes away, the food stops. Loud scary garbage truck going by, same thing. Feed as it approaches, continue to feed as it passes, stop feeding once it's gone. Over time, he will go from thinking "Garbage truck coming, scary!" to "Garbage truck coming, where's my treat?!" and looking to you automatically for it.

 

If your dog has a lot of fear or anxiety issues, a private consult with an animal behavior professional committed to reward-based methods would be a good idea so she can help you develop a clear plan of attack.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Didn't read all the replies, but just wanted to add, in one of your first posts in this thread, you said he won't do what you ask him to do. You don't specify how you are asking him, but you know, they don't speak English. Your description of his reaction is not that he is "stubborn" but that he is confused and afraid because he doesn't understand what you are saying, and when you then keep repeating it (and probably with some tension in your voice, which they absolutely understand no matter how much you think you are not showing frustration), then he becomes anxious (because they are very sensitive to any kind of emotion like frustration, tension, anger).

 

Especially as you are new and he is new, it's much better to train with a clicker and capture behaviors that you want him to do, such as lying down, or going to his bed. You can search the forum for clicker training and capturing behaviors.

[a_daerr]

If he's been home for over a year, and he's still freaking out over noise distractions and external stimuli, it's possible that you just have a spooky dog. You can do things to help lessen his anxiety... but this may be the way he is. Spookiness is a legitimate genetic trait. You can only get so far with training.

 

I get what you're saying about leadership, and it's definitely important that your dog sees you as an authority figure. Anytime you use the word 'alpha,' though, it implies the obligatory Cesar Millan alpha dominance training trap that so many people fall victim too. I like Jen's 'benevolent leader' term. You want your dog to obey you out of mutual trust and respect, not fear.

[Guest VelvetOkie]

If he's been home for over a year, and he's still freaking out over noise distractions and external stimuli, it's possible that you just have a spooky dog. You can do things to help lessen his anxiety... but this may be the way he is. Spookiness is a legitimate genetic trait. You can only get so far with training.

 

I get what you're saying about leadership, and it's definitely important that your dog sees you as an authority figure. Anytime you use the word 'alpha,' though, it implies the obligatory Cesar Millan alpha dominance training trap that so many people fall victim too. I like Jen's 'benevolent leader' term. You want your dog to obey you out of mutual trust and respect, not fear.

Yes. Thats what i meant by alpha. That explains why everyone was going on about that haha!! Absolutely not dominance or fear! So yes. I need a new term for what i mean since alpha has a bad wrap

 

I hope hes not a spook by nature. He loves his walks more than anything and i cant eliminate all that he doesnt like. Hes an awesome boy though so i have hope we can sooth him some.

[NeylasMom]

I like Jen's 'benevolent leader' term. You want your dog to obey you out of mutual trust and respect, not fear.

Technically not mine, Patricia McConnell's (I think). And I'm not sure I'm a fan, I just think its better than the alternative. Bottom line is that dogs do things based on what motivates them, not because they respect you or "obey" you. If they sit when you ask them to, it's because they've learned that doing so is likely to result in some sort of reward, simple as that (or the alternative is possible, that they've learned not doing so means something bad will happen). Can you form a bond with your dog, can you love your dog and get love in return, absolutely, but that's not what makes your dog down on cue.

[Guest k9soul]

Regarding the word "alpha" in my mind it isn't necessarily about force or fear, but a philosophy and a way of thinking that is based off the idea of the "alpha wolf" which is where the term came from when applied to dealing with dogs. The idea is the alpha wolf leads the pack, eats first, goes first, decides when and where to hunt and so on. That is why I mentioned the book, In Defence of Dogs, which is debunking even that natural wolf packs operate in this way. Most research on wolves in the past was done on captive packs, which behave much differently than wild/natural packs. A natural pack is a family unit with no real set hierarchy. They function by cooperation and not by following 1 leader.

 

I haven't finished it yet, I'm about half through, but it's an excellent book that really delves into the real origin of dogs, what motivates them and how they function and learn.

[NeylasMom]

There are actually quite a few books out right now that are based on the actual science of how dogs learn (Patricia McConnell's For the Love of a Dog, Stanley Coren's How Dogs Think, John Bradshaw's Dog Sense, etc.), but if you're not up for an entire book, this Pat Miller article does a nice job of summing things up:

 

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

[Guest VelvetOkie]

Regarding the word "alpha" in my mind it isn't necessarily about force or fear, but a philosophy and a way of thinking that is based off the idea of the "alpha wolf" which is where the term came from when applied to dealing with dogs. The idea is the alpha wolf leads the pack, eats first, goes first, decides when and where to hunt and so on. That is why I mentioned the book, In Defence of Dogs, which is debunking even that natural wolf packs operate in this way. Most research on wolves in the past was done on captive packs, which behave much differently than wild/natural packs. A natural pack is a family unit with no real set hierarchy. They function by cooperation and not by following 1 leader.

 

I haven't finished it yet, I'm about half through, but it's an excellent book that really delves into the real origin of dogs, what motivates them and how they function and learn.

 

that is definitely interesting and sounds like it flies in the face of everything i have always heard. i may have to read that soon

[Guest k9soul]

There are actually quite a few books out right now that are based on the actual science of how dogs learn (Patricia McConnell's For the Love of a Dog, Stanley Coren's How Dogs Think, John Bradshaw's Dog Sense, etc.), but if you're not up for an entire book, this Pat Miller article does a nice job of summing things up:

 

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

 

That's a good article. Summarizes up a lot of things very nicely. I need to get to Stanley Coren's book as that is one I haven't read yet.

[NeylasMom]

 

That's a good article. Summarizes up a lot of things very nicely. I need to get to Stanley Coren's book as that is one I haven't read yet.

I actually haven't read it. It's going with me to Dewey though to give me something light to read when I need to put Excel-erated Learning down.

[Guest k9soul]

I actually haven't read it. It's going with me to Dewey though to give me something light to read when I need to put Excel-erated Learning down.

 

I have the Excel-erated Learning on my Kindle that I started and haven't finished yet too. It's one I need to read when my brain isn't tired.

[Guest VelvetOkie]

interesting article. although i used the word "alpha" i always meant seeing me as a leader type. no where near what the article states to be alpha!! that was hard to even read at points...

but i have never been great at sticking with most training regimens anyway. maybe subconsciously i knew something was off about it and was just content to live with my rotten, untrained hunk of love

[cleptogrey]

quick couple of question;

why after 15 months are you now just starting to train or feel the need to train? has something changed or happened??

has he had a check up- first thing i thought of is something chemically off balance? maybe thryroid, maybe something else?

 

the reason for the 2nd question is a friend had a grey(since passed) who was really spooked, wierd,froze, reactive on walks. even walks around her small condo complex. if a truck passed a couple of blocks away he freaked. if someone slammed a car door- freak out. chemically he was off, thyroid, allergies,potassium level. chemical imbalances, even slight can cause major disturbances to a sensitive dog. he was only happy staying inside.

 

lots of excellent training suggestion, but please let us know the cronoligical progression of changes in his behavior- changes in your lifestyle- that affects them, changes in food- allergies! also please do talk to your vet, before and discuss sensitive greyhound systems. dr suzannah stack(is that her name, can't check it while i type on my old computer) lists lots of medical anamolies(sp?) and quirks.

[Guest VelvetOkie]

quick couple of question;

why after 15 months are you now just starting to train or feel the need to train? has something changed or happened??

has he had a check up- first thing i thought of is something chemically off balance? maybe thryroid, maybe something else?

 

the reason for the 2nd question is a friend had a grey(since passed) who was really spooked, wierd,froze, reactive on walks. even walks around her small condo complex. if a truck passed a couple of blocks away he freaked. if someone slammed a car door- freak out. chemically he was off, thyroid, allergies,potassium level. chemical imbalances, even slight can cause major disturbances to a sensitive dog. he was only happy staying inside.

 

lots of excellent training suggestion, but please let us know the cronoligical progression of changes in his behavior- changes in your lifestyle- that affects them, changes in food- allergies! also please do talk to your vet, before and discuss sensitive greyhound systems. dr suzannah stack(is that her name, can't check it while i type on my old computer) lists lots of medical anamolies(sp?) and quirks.

1. Because the neighbor down the street walks her yorkie often and he gets jumpy / pully when they pass by. Cats or stray dogs arent good either. So i decided to try and teach him to focus on me when hes nervous.

 

2. Hes not quite that bad.. Hes getting better with normal noises such as passing cars etc. louder cars or lawn equipment etc get his attention but not to the point of freaking, you can just tell the noise is unnerving so i try to avoid too much stimulation, which has led to statuing.

His vet is well versed in greys and yes he has been thouroughly examined with extended labwork just a couple months ago. He is a healthy boy