Possible Sleep Aggression Question

[tyguy7760]

So we adopted Piper, our first Greyhound a little over 2 weeks ago. We have been singing her praises ever since. She is getting so much more friendly with all of us, and seems to be really coming out of her shell. We have been calling her "the perfect dog" the entire time as it just seems like she really is just perfect. And we absolutely love her to death.

 

Unfortunately, Friday we had a bit of an incident. My 7 year old had went to school and I was gone to work leaving my wife, our 14 month old, and Piper at home. All three were downstairs in the family room. Piper usually lays by the door to the family room when she is down there (she doesn't always come down because her crate is in the middle level and she loves it so she still spends a good amount of time there). My wife was on the couch and Lizzie made her way towards Piper. With no warning, Piper jumped up and lunged at Lizzie and bit her on the forehead. Scary. She immediately went to the other side of the room with her head down (as if she knew what she just did). Fortunately the bite was not severe and only bruised lizzie's forehead. From the angle my wife was sitting at she could not see Piper but could see Lizzie. She said that from where Piper lunged from it did not appear that Lizzie was on Piper but more like 2 or 3 feet away. So it doesn't appear that Lizzie stepped on her.

 

Needless to say it was a scary and sad day. Anytime anything nearly 70 pounds attacks your 20 pound daughter a ton of emotions and thoughts run through your head. Ranging from returning the dog to everything else. Fortunately, after several hours of sitting and thinking of what possibly could have happened and what we should do, we came to the conclusion that Piper must have been asleep and either dreamed (she dreams frequently) or a combination of waking up and Lizzie startling her and attacking. My wife said that this wasn't just a snap but she did lunge at lizzie so it wasn't a "oh it startled me and I'm going to give a warning snap and the toddler was closer than I thought". We decided not to return her as she has been in several homes over the past few months (including 2 fosters and a family that returned her for scratching up their hardwood floors...yes really) and we know there is an adjustment period and all of the homes she has been in had children full time or part time and to our knowledge there is no history of aggression whatsoever. She seems to have no space aggression as I or my wife can reach in her crate when she is in there and she happily takes the pettings we offer. She is not food aggressive as when we feed her (her bowl is in the kitchen) the entire family is around her and I pet her every time she eats just to make sure she doesn't think we are a threat as I have had extremely food aggressive dogs in the past. Really we have seen no signs of aggression from her since or before. My wife and I can freely go up to her while she is laying down and even sleeping and she doesn't so much as move. She seems to like Lizzie or at least doesn't mind her. Lizzie has mistakenly fallen on her once or twice and even stepped on her foot a few times and Piper hasn't even moved a muscle during those instances.

 

We have come to accept that this must have been an isolated incident. We kept her for a number of reasons but chiefly because she is just an awesome dog who has thus far been great with everyone. We have installed new rules that the kids are not allowed around her when she is laying down and if we are doing something that we can't keep a constant eye on lizzie we usually move Piper to her crate or another part of the house. She loves her crate so this is not a punishment. The kids already know not to get around her crate when she is in it even though she shows no signs of space aggression.

 

Anyways, after all that does anyone have any suggestions on making sure this doesn't happen again? I know that really we can't guarantee that it won't. But anything that may help? I have considered that maybe she sees Lizzie as a subordinate and not as important as her. Any suggestions on making sure she realizes that Lizzie is higher up? We have been putting treats in Lizzie's hand and letting Piper eat out of her hand a few times. Not sure if that's good or not but thought maybe that would encourage her to see Lizzie as higher up.

 

After all that I do want to emphasize that we absolutely love Piper. Like I said we have been singing her praises and been calling her perfect up until now. We don't want to get rid of her and really that is not on the table at this point. But in the event that it happens again in the immediate future, I don't really have a choice but to do what's best for my daughter.

[Batmom]

Nothing to do with seeing her as higher up or not. Child that age shouldn't be getting that close to the dog while dog is lying down, not ever, and shouldn't be getting that close to the dog while the dog is standing up unless a parent is right there to moderate the interaction. Ex-pens and baby gates can make it easier to manage dogs around small children until the children get big enough to follow rules such as "let sleeping dogs lie." Glad nobody was more than bruised!

[mychip1]

I had one with major sleep aggression issues and I have be now with "minor" ones. I wouldn't assume it is isolated, as you wouldn't want another incident.....I agree w x pens and baby gates. Unless the hound is awake and interactive, I would keep baby away..... Sounds like you have an awesome hound.....who has a pretty common issue.

One thing to remember.....greyhounds aren't like other dogs who at a few weeks old are tossed into a home life and adapt to things going on around them when they sleep. Greys sleep in their kennels....their own space.....so they are startled easily when in a sleep state.

[GeorgeofNE]

Kudos to you for not being more freaked out--

 

I agree with what the others have said: probably NOT an isolated incident, and a toddler should not be near a dog that's laying down. Sure, you see photos all the time of kids choking the life out of passive dogs--but there are enough "accidents" like this that the general advice given about children and greyhounds is NEVER approach when they're laying down.

 

I'm glad your little girl wasn't badly injured, and that you seem willing to work with the dog! Good luck.

[Houndmommy03]

Just something I'll throw out there....First, I agree with what others have said about kids and dogs (my kids were little when we adopted our first hound and our first hound had some issues so I know what it's like trying to keep everyone safe). Secondly, is it possible your dog has issues (space, sleep aggression, ???) that may just now be coming out? Maybe in the past when Lizzie stepped on her she tolerated it but now she feels more comfy letting you know she doesn't want to be stepped on or she's scared of being stepped on. We have a new hound (Had him about 2 months) and he barked at my 18 year old for just sitting near his bed (I was in the room and witnessed it - my son did nothing, just sitting on the floor, near the bed, texting on his phone.) He has never done this before so I wonder if he just feels more comfortable now letting us know he does't want us that close when in his bed. Anyway, sounds like you have a nice dog and I commend you for trying to work this out but for the sake of hound and kids, don't get too comfy just yet.

[tyguy7760]

I admit we let our guard down around her because she just seemed to be a saint about everything. I think what set us back the most was just the viciousness of the attack with no warning whatsoever. If it had been a growl or a warning snap this would have been a non-issue but we really did have no warning.

 

But thankfully we have learned our lesson as far as let sleeping dogs lie on this one with no major injury.

 

As far as new space/sleep aggression issues, I really don't think she has space aggression at all. The children have been within a few feet of her crate and she seems to pay them no mind. I also can go over to her crate and pet her in it whenever I want and she doesn't seem to show any aggression and looks pretty happy when I do it. Sleep aggression on the other hand seems like a possibility even though she doesn't show it to my wife, me, or our 7 year old. Piper sleeps next to my wife in the floor and or daughter usually gets up at least once a night and my wife has to walk very close to her and she has never shown any aggression in these instances. I have also petted her several times while she is laying down and she has shown no aggression towards me either. Same goes for the 7 year old.

 

But like I said, we've installed new rules that the kids can't be around her when she is laying down and when we can't keep a constant eye on lizzie at all times, Piper goes to her crate or another level in the house. I just didn't know if anyone had any suggestions on other things that may help.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

The children have been within a few feet of her crate and she seems to pay them no mind.

 

In this case she probably feels quite safe knowing that the crate walls are keeping the kids from stepping on her, where out in the open she might feel vulnerable.

 

My grey will not tolerate kids near her when she's resting, nor hugging her. I, don't have any, but when my nieces and nephews come over I keep her muzzled for the times when they, inevitably, forget the rules.

[greysmom]

You can muzzle Piper, in lieu of crating her. I know crating isn't a punishment, but sometimes it's not always convenient, and a muzzle just pops on and off.

 

Keep in mind, she was crated a lot when racing and sees the crate as her safe spot. She knows she is going to be OK when she's in there, even if the scary toddler is right outside. Laying out in the open is another matter, and she probably does NOT feel as comfortable. If you can, please draw comfort from the fact that if Piper had wanted to hurt your daughter, she certainly could have - but she didn't. She knows she's not supposed to bite/growl/snarl, but for whatever reason - whether she was startled or threatened - she did. It could be the previous incidents made Piper wary, and she reacted proactively this time. Could have been sleep startling. Could have been many things.

 

I disagree with the others about whether this is an isolated incident or not. Since you/we don't know what caused it, you/we can't say whether it will happen again or not. In this case, prevention is better than reaction. Toddlers are not the same as other, older kids or adults. They move differently, sound differently, smell differently. Your rules are good ones and should be followed until you are *sure* your youngest can follow them on her own.

[tyguy7760]

Yes we have said many times since Friday that she could have done a lot more damage than she did and are grateful that the injury was so minimal. My wife said that she actually bit lizzie several times but it only resulted in one discernible mark. And minutes later Lizzie was happy and talking and her normal smiley self.

 

We already have baby gates all over the place for lizzie so it's not too hard to move Piper out of the room if we are preoccupied with something and letting Lizzie have the run of the room. Muzzleing is an option but one we'd rather not resort to. I know the greyhounds don't mind it but if she wanted to attack with the muzzle on she could still do some damage. Removing her from the room if we can't keep an eye on lizzie is a better option I think.

 

That all being said, we love Piper to death. She really is part of the family for us and hate that this happened. But I think we learned a valuable lesson with little damage. I would love to hear from others that had sleep aggression (not saying that is what this is) and how you either worked around it or worked through it.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

I would love to hear from others that had sleep aggression (not saying that is what this is) and how you either worked around it or worked through it.

 

One common method for working on sleep startle is to gently toss stuffed toys or balled up socks on the sleeping dog. This is just a safe way to get it used to suddenly being touched while sleeping.

[greysmom]

We've had several dogs with sleep aggression. All but one of them got very much better with time and living in a home. But that *one* drew blood on both my husband and I before we finally learned she was NOT OK to sleep with us in bed. We have trained ourselves to never approach a sleeping dog without making sure they were awake and aware of what we are doing - calling their name, kicking the dog bed, throwing a soft toy or piece of clothing - whether the dog was sleep aggressive or not. Sometimes it's hard to tell because greyhounds can and do sleep with their eyes open.

 

One other thing to add to your rules - ask your child to not approach the dog to give pets/affection. Always have her call the dog to her (and with your supervision for now). If Piper isn't enthusiastic about come, it's a good way to work on some obedience and involve your toddler, which will have to added effect of helping them bond and understand each other better. Yummy treats encourage better obedience.

[tyguy7760]

One other thing to add to your rules - ask your child to not approach the dog to give pets/affection. Always have her call the dog to her (and with your supervision for now). If Piper isn't enthusiastic about come, it's a good way to work on some obedience and involve your toddler, which will have to added effect of helping them bond and understand each other better. Yummy treats encourage better obedience.

 

Well right now the only words my daughter can consistently get out is uh-oh, dada, mama, tank-u (thank you), and bye-bye so it will be a little while before she is calling piper over to her. But we are putting treats in lizzie's hand and letting piper eat out of it (with both of us right there of course) so hopefully that will help.

[a_daerr]

Sleep/space aggression is one thing, and it can be managed under the right circumstances and training program. But IMHO, toddlers and small kids are an entirely different ballgame. They can be rough, loud, unpredictable with their body movements, etc. All of those things can be incredibly scary to a dog who has never been raised with young children. The incident you witnessed is the reason why many adoption groups refuse to adopt to households with very young children. I would expect any new dog (greyhound or not) to snap if a toddler was crawling toward them in an area they recognized as their "safe zone." Heck, I could manhandle either of my dogs any way I wanted to, but I am 100% sure they'd have the same response as Piper in that particular situation.

 

There are some things you can do to desensitize, but really, the only safe way to prevent these situations from happening again is to supervise every single interaction. During these interactions, the dog should be standing up and free to walk away when she's had enough. If you can't be there to supervise, the dog needs to be crated or confined. Even though it may have looked like Piper's behavior was unprovoked, it's likely she gave a handful of subtle cues first that said, "I'm uncomfortable with this. Leave me be!" A toddler isn't capable of recognizing those cues, so it's important that you be there to do it. I highly recommend Dogproofing Your Child by Brian Kilcommons to learn how to read those cues.

 

Lastly, I want to say that I don't think Piper is a bad dog for what happened. Certain breeds, labs and such, will allow a child to crawl on them, pull their ears and tails, roughhouse with them, etc. Greyhounds are not those kinds of dogs, however, that is not to say they can't live happily and safely with kids. It might take some work on everyone's part- dog, parents, and kids.

Edited October 1, 2013 by a_daerr

[tyguy7760]

Lastly, I want to say that I don't think Piper is a bad dog for what happened. Certain breeds, labs and such, will allow a child to crawl on them, pull their ears and tails, roughhouse with them, etc. Greyhounds are not those kinds of dogs, however, that is not to say they can't live happily and safely with kids. It might take some work on everyone's part- dog, parents, and kids.

 

Oh I completely agree with you on this. I didn't mean to give off the vibe that if we can "fix" piper's sleep aggression (if she does have it) then we can let Lizzie crawl all over her. I think we realize now that we are going to have to be much more careful. I'm just glad we are coming to the conclusion that it is something we can fix (on all of our parts not just Piper) and not something that can't be.

 

I think we saw how great Piper had been being with Lizzie and being occasionally bumped or accidentally stepped on and we just let our guard down and took it for granted. We knew going into it that greyhounds weren't labs and weren't as passive when it comes to kids but at the same time still a great family dog. We knew they didn't like to be continually hugged and pulled on and such. But after we saw how great Piper was being I think we started to think maybe we had the exception. We learned we didn't and thankfully with little damage. I have been around toddlers and their dogs and have witnessed how some toddlers can jump on them and hit them and pull their ears and such. By no means does Lizzie do this. Even before this incident Lizzie was a little wary of Piper just because of how big she is in comparison to her. But as everyone knows, toddlers are unpredictable and not sure footed at the least.

 

And I also completely agree that Piper is not a bad dog. If I thought she was, then she would have been returned to the adoption agency by Lunchtime Friday. Like I've said, we absolutely adore her and place most of the blame on ourselves.

[ramonaghan]

There are some things you can do to desensitize, but really, the only safe way to prevent these situations from happening again is to supervise every single interaction. During these interactions, the dog should be standing up and free to walk away when she's had enough. If you can't be there to supervise, the dog needs to be crated or confined. Even though it may have looked like Piper's behavior was unprovoked, it's likely she gave a handful of subtle cues first that said, "I'm uncomfortable with this. Leave me be!" A toddler isn't capable of recognizing those cues, so it's important that you be there to do it. I highly recommend Dogproofing Your Child by Brian Kilcommons to learn how to read those cues.

 

Here's another article on those subtle cues (calming signals) that might help you identify when Piper's had enough or is feeling uncomfortable before a situation escalates.

 

Other than that, just want to thank you for your commitment to Piper and willingness to work through this. I suspect that for many parents, this single incident would be a deal breaker. No matter what the future holds (and I sincerely hope it all works out!), it's obvious that you're putting in the effort and research, which is commendable. (Seriously, scratching the hardwood floors? Wow. Didn't know that's why she was bounced from her first home.)

[a_daerr]

 

Other than that, just want to thank you for your commitment to Piper and willingness to work through this. I suspect that for many parents, this single incident would be a deal breaker.

 

Absolutely. It seems like you have realistic expectations, and you're doing the right thing for everyone involved.

[tyguy7760]

(Seriously, scratching the hardwood floors? Wow. Didn't know that's why she was bounced from her first home.)

 

Yeah, when we heard that was the reason she was returned we thought "Man this dog must do some serious damage to a house" and we were a little apprehensive about her. But then when she came for her home visit and they explained "No it's just the original owners were not good about keeping her nails trimmed and let them go for several weeks" I realized how silly that was.

 

We do her nails every weekend just to make sure she doesn't do any damage or hurt herself but seriously...scratching your floors? Obviously big dogs weren't their thing...or at least regular toe nail grooming.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

 

 

(Seriously, scratching the hardwood floors? Wow. Didn't know that's why she was bounced from her first home.)

 

We had a dog returned after he'd been in a home for a whole year because the big goof kept knocking the three-year-old kid over. The dog wasn't aggressive, and hadn't hurt the kid. He and the kid were just both clumsy. Rather than watching out until the kid was a little bigger, and more stable walker, they just got rid of the dog.

[tyguy7760]

Quick question about toe nail grinding...sorry to hi-jack but since I started the thread I feel like I'm entitled

 

Is there a good way to get Piper to lay down on her side? The foster had been doing it while she stood up and claimed Piper loves getting her nails done. Apparently I must really suck because Piper does not like it at all. She continually tries to pull her leg out of my hand and I think the only reason she finally lets me is her leg is tired. I try to keep her paw as close to the ground as possible so she can keep her balance and most of the time my wife also holds her and steadies her but she still is constantly pulling away. I have been very careful not to get in the quick and I haven't yet (I have some experience at this with other dogs so I know what not to do).

 

However, this past weekend she got so fed up she just went and laid down. I wasn't even half way through at this point so I just went ahead and started up again to see if she would let me. She didn't even move at all and finished the other 3 feet in less time than i did the first. Any hints? I know this is way off topic but oh well.

[ramonaghan]

Not really an answer to your question, but we just wait til Sweep is naturally in that position (which is often) and then swoop in with the dremel. She never seems to mind it, but we still give her a treat after each foot to ensure it remains a positive experience.

[Guest k9soul]

I don't know if this will add any insight into your situation, but I think it often takes a lot longer for a dog to really feel completely comfortable and at home than many people realize. It's hard to know what might have occurred to suddenly make her either startle or feel she needed to defend herself. Rudy is my first greyhound and he has been with me 8 months now. I remember thinking after 6 weeks or so that surely he was settled in and feeling home, but when I see how he is now in comparison I realize he wasn't really at all yet. Every passing of a few more weeks I would be surprised at how his behavior seemed to change and become more relaxed overall. Small things like deciding he was comfortable sleeping in other rooms rather than always being with me, dancing and pawing goofily at my leg as I approach the closet with shoes and leashes, and choosing to lay down right next to me when I sit on the floor to do something. Those are just a few examples of things that evolved more over time. When he first came and a delivery man would come to do the door, he'd just stand and look out the window as my lab mix barked her head off. Now he joins right in with her; he's part of the pack now and he wants his presence known (even though any intruder would mostly be in danger of being knocked down as he reared up to give kisses).

 

Rudy had been bounced on three previous occasions due to fear-based aggression. Not biting, but growling/snapping. He's already taught me a lot about being patient, taking baby steps, and realizing that adjustment and bonding take time, more time than when I brought a puppy home from the shelter. It's been an amazing experience though, and one we've both grown from and I feel we will continue to. I think both of us are more confident and calm than we were 8 months ago.

[Guest Groundhog]

I was bitten, badly, by a Greyhound that had been in my home for 2 months. I had 7 staples in my head, and I'm 57 years old with the hard skull that goes along with it. I'm going to ask those questions that no one seems to be asking: are you going to be able to keep a toddler under your eyesight every minute of every day? Do you really want to keep your dog and your children separated most of the time? What if Piper bites your daughter again, and you have to take her to the emergency room? Yes-I gave my dog back to the adoption group and thankfully she was placed with another home with experience with "twitchy" Greyhounds. I would never have a dog in my home that was a biting danger to me or my children, babies especially. I am frankly shocked that you are not more concerned about this. Greyhounds are LIGHTNING fast in everything, including attacking, and you may not be given a second chance. Greyhound owners are PASSIONATE about their breed, and in this particular case I believe it has clouded their judgement.

I was bitten, badly, by a Greyhound that had been in my home for 2 months. I had 7 staples in my head, and I'm 57 years old with the hard skull that goes along with it. I'm going to ask those questions that no one seems to be asking: are you going to be able to keep a toddler under your eyesight every minute of every day? Do you really want to keep your dog and your children separated most of the time? What if Piper bites your daughter again, and you have to take her to the emergency room? Yes-I gave my dog back to the adoption group and thankfully she was placed with another home with experience with "twitchy" Greyhounds. I would never have a dog in my home that was a biting danger to me or my children, babies especially. I am frankly shocked that you are not more concerned about this. Greyhounds are LIGHTNING fast in everything, including attacking, and you may not be given a second chance. Greyhound owners are PASSIONATE about their breed, and in this particular case I believe it has clouded their judgement.

Sorry for the duplicate post.

[tyguy7760]

Piper enjoys her crate that is in a different part of the house. If we are downstairs and we can't keep an eye on Lizzie then Piper usually goes up stairs. If Piper is in the room with us then we make sure that Lizzie doesn't go around her unless she is obviously awake and attentive. If we are in the part of the house that her crate is in then we make sure and keep her away from Piper and her crate unless Piper is attentive. Our 7 year old knows already not to bother her when she is sleeping or in her crate.

 

If Piper bites my daughter again it would completely depend on the situation. If it was seemingly unprovoked and unwarranted then returning her is a possibility. But you run that risk with any dog and not just a greyhound. And from what happened I wouldn't label Piper as a bite risk anymore than I would any other dog. And keep in mind I posted this after 3 days of contemplation. So yes I was extremely concerned about it and still am but you run the risk of being bit anytime you have a dog in your house. We learned this and we will just have to be extra vigilant when it comes to the children.

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

I think tyguy7760 is being completely reasonable in his response. If Piper was actually being aggressive, she definitely has the speed and power to have done a great deal of damage to Lizzie. If the dog were aggressive it would be showing more signs of wanting to hurt the child than one instance of a "get the heck away from me" snap. My grey had been with me a couple years when she did pretty much the same thing to my nephew. He hugged her while she was standing near him, and she let him know how much she didn't appreciate it. She barked right in his face several times, and the whole thing sounded way worse than it was. He had nothing more than a bruise with a scratch from one errant tooth, where she absolutely could have taken off his whole face. He was scared, of course, but he's respected her boundaries ever since.

 

In tyguy's case, his family is just going to have to monitor interactions more closely. It's not that hard to do. In time Piper's trust in Lizzie will only increase, because she'll become familiar with the child's behavior and learn that she's not going to get hurt by the girl. Meanwhile, as the child grows she'll learn to control her body better, so her movements will be smoother and less apt to scare a dog. She'll also learn by the example her parents are setting forth about how to respect a dog's space, and everyone will be happier for it.

 

Remember, the child had fallen on, and stepped on the dog already a few times in just the two weeks she's been home. She had good reason to fear it might happen again, and did what she thought she needed to do to protect herself. This summer my dog learned that kids on bikes can be dangerous when my niece lost control and ran over/fell on her. Thankfully, neither were hurt, but Jayne was wary if the kids were on bikes for the rest of the week. They never got close again, but I'm sure she would have reacted if they had, and I really couldn't blame her. It sucks to be sleeping peacefully and have someone fall on you.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Wasserbuffel

[GeorgeofNE]

I already commented, but I will address your direct request for dealing with true sleep aggression.

 

My dog had sleep aggression when I first got him. I have been around dogs my entire life, but never a Greyhound, so it surprised me, but I wasn't overly alarmed. He snapped at me more than once. I took to ALWAYS calling his name before I touched him (loudly) because he used to sleep with his eyes open!

 

He got over it after about 2 years (George is a very, very handsome, sweet dog, but frankly not all that bright! He also was 5 when he left kennel living, so...).

 

My big concern was not a child, but my very, very senile father who LOVES dogs. I had to tell him to never, ever touch the dog. Fortunately, he became pretty immobile not long after I got George so it was no longer a problem.

 

Your mileage may vary, but if it IS sleep aggression, odds are she'll get over it.