inugrey Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Salem is 11 years old. In July we determined that she has intestinal disease due to low folate and B12. Her symptoms over the month have been diarrhea, and discomfort that leads to her not wanting to eat. We have gone back and forth a bit with the specialist in terms of treatment and so far I haven't gotten her out of the cycle of good day and then a bad day. Her treatment right now is, probiotic (vetriscience BD), anti-nausea med (begins with an "o"), metronidazole, prilosec and she eats four meals a day of chicken, mashed potatoes and a canned prescription d/d food. I have been on this course since only Saturday and Monday morning was no good. I was hoping when previous efforts didn't work it was because I tried to get kibble into her too soon or fed her too large meals. We're not 100% sure she has IBD but are moving forward with the idea that there is at least IBS. Because of that I am thinking feeding smaller meals is better. I have also read about prednisone to help but I'm terrified of pred because I watched is steal all body mass from her littermate. From that experience I think of pred as an end of life drug. I don't know, but I just wonder if anyone has any ideas on how to get her past this initial hurdle and get her digestive system back to some sort of new normal. She's lost 8 pounds in a month. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 What is the "o" drug? There's an omeprazole that's the generic version of Prilosec, and you wouldn't want to double dose on that. There's also an ondansetron, which is different. If she isn't obviously nauseous, I would try eliminating both of those. If the dog doesn't *need* stomach acid reduction, giving something like Prilosec can make output worse rather than better. If the "o" drug is ondansetron, that's probably benign in this case. If you really think she has IBD and you can afford it, I'd go to one of the hydrolyzed protein vet diets such as Z/D Ultra and see if you can get her stabilized on that. Then try, carefully, branching out from there. I know how scary prednisone can be, but sometimes it's the best thing to use. I haven't seen it cause problems in the short term, or at low dose over the long term, other than extra drinking/peeing. Hugs and best luck with your sweetie. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 yes, it's ondansetron, thank you for jogging my memory on that one. I've already told Salem she's the reason I'm not getting a new couch this year, so we would be happy to buy a prescription food if it helped her out. I was confused when we were given a script for D/D since that is just hypoallergenic as I read it. My husband has been pushing pred and I've been pushing back. I need to talk to the specialist again. Thank you for your insight. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 In some cases, you have to go the pred route. Ace was on 25mg/every other day and then 10mg/every other day for her leukemia for years with no issues. It doesn't always just make them waste away (though trust me, I know what you're saying about Inu as it did the same to Pinky). For IBD I think in most cases prednisone is almost required in order to calm the GI tract enough to not have a horrible flare again right away. I don't have hands on experience with IBD but I went through the wringer with Sutra and pancreatitis and I can certainly empathize with the roller coaster you're on right now. Quote Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysandmollie Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Colleen...No experience but wanted to say...I hope you find something that helps. I have used pred for Mollie off and on for years for allergy issues. It does increase appetite is what I have been told...when I did chemo for Rascal they encouraged using it to get him eating. Mollie is a beast on it...she will take food out of my hand pretty much. Hugs to you and sweet Salem. Quote Donna and...Lucy and Chubb Rascal H 10/1/91-5/22/04 My best friend and Bounty Boon 1/23/99-6/25/07 My boy with the biggest heart Cody 7/28/99-8/1/13 My boy that always made me laugh and Dylan 5/12/04-12/29/2017 The sweetest boy ever Miss Mollie 1/1/99-1/30/15 and Pixie -10/10/2017 Lincoln -2/14/2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlies_Dad Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 While we do not have a Grey with IBS, we do have a Rat Terrier (almost 15yrs old) who was diagnosed in June. She was having some bad 'attacks' and we ended up on Predisone as our internal specialist recommended that to get it under control. We are not weening her off it and moving to Budesonide that has fewer side effects. We are feeding her canned rabbit food recommended by our vet and she is a lot better but definitely great and also giving her weekly B12 shots. There are going to continue to be battles ahead so we are taking one day at a time. Quote Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge. Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 Are you only feeding her the canned rabbit? No kibble? We start 20mg of pred tonight. Man I hope this helps and doesn't hurt. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I would recommend you try a hypoallergenic diet -either a novel protein/carb diet or a hydrolyzed diet, B-12 injections and it may be time for a corticosteroid--I prefer budesonide over pred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I might suggest that instead of doing chicken that you use beef and make sure it is cooked. Chicken today is filled with anitbiotics and there have recently been papers cropping up that are suggesting that the massive use of antibiotics in chicken is the cause of IBD and IBS in humans. Good luck in getting this under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charbess Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Have you had an ultrasound done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MnMDogs Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 If the dog doesn't *need* stomach acid reduction, giving something like Prilosec can make output worse rather than better. . I think we learned this the hard way with Macy and Greg, and Pepcid... One thing we've tried as a result of the month of liquid poo that was July, is raw goats milk. I was skeptical, but tried it. I can't be 100% certain that it's helping or they finally got better, but they're better. It was a month of not having answers, so I'm willing to believe the milk helped (where flagyl, panacur, and boiled chicken and rice didn't) You mentioned that she has low B12. I know that with people who have low levels, injections are given. Is this an option for dogs as well? I'm sorry you're going through this- it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MnMDogs Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I would recommend you try a hypoallergenic diet -either a novel protein/carb diet or a hydrolyzed diet, B-12 injections and it may be time for a corticosteroid--I prefer budesonide over pred. Ahh they do do B12 injections...sorry read thread fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 I would recommend you try a hypoallergenic diet -either a novel protein/carb diet or a hydrolyzed diet, B-12 injections and it may be time for a corticosteroid--I prefer budesonide over pred. I'm calling her back to talk about these options, thank you. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) Have you had an ultrasound done? Sorry I forgot to respond to this. Yes, we had an ultrasound done first. I lost her littermate to lymphoma in his digestive system. I go to diagnostic imaging before the vet even suggests it. Edited August 5, 2013 by inugrey Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlies_Dad Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Are you only feeding her the canned rabbit? No kibble? We start 20mg of pred tonight. Man I hope this helps and doesn't hurt. It's actually Royal Canin hypoallergenic rabbit and potato. The vet suggested we try this and we are giving her B12 shots at home along with budesonide. Pred we will be done with in a few days. Quote Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge. Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charbess Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Sorry I forgot to respond to this. Yes, we had an ultrasound done first. I lost her littermate to lymphoma in his digestive system. I go to diagnostic imaging before the vet even suggests it. What did the ultrasound show? We just went through this with our Charlotte and the ultrasound showed "Diffusely Thickened Walls and Layering Bowel Loop," as well as enlarged lymph nodes and spleen and fluid in the abdomen. From that the vets tentatively "diagnosed" either lymphoma or IBD but said they would have to do a colonoscopy for more confimation as well as take a sample of the abdominal fluid to see what kind of cancer cells (if it was cancer) were there. We chose to spare her from the surgery and let her go. It didn't seem to us there would be a simple solution and I spent days on Google, VetMD and WebMD trying to decipher the lingo and what it all meant. I got the best help and explanations from members of this forum who had struggled with the same issue.. Edited August 6, 2013 by charbess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 Her ultrasound showed irritated colon but that's it. There are no swollen lymph nodes, which I was most concerned about finding. Her littermate survived six weeks post diagnosis (FNA after the imaging suggested lymphoma) with prednisone and no chemo. His complete loss of muscle mass during this time is the reason I am so terrified to prednisone. She is on her first full day of pred and prescription food. Things are good. I hope this is the push we needed to get her over the hump. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Expect great muscle mass loss from the pred :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Damn it. Does it come back if you stop the pred? Does the budesonide have the same side effect? Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Budesonide for the most part stays within the GI and therefore does not present with the side effects that pred is infamous for. I think you will find most internal medicine Drs reaching for budesonide over pred lately. Budesonide is more expensive but, many compounding pharmacy's prices are rather reasonable (via name brand). Price around -diamond, SBH or Wedgewood are all compounding pharmacys that offer reasonable prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Thank you. I've been very disappointed with the communication with this vet. I've been waiting for a call back since Monday midday. It's time for me to make myself heard kindly but firmly. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charbess Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Her ultrasound showed irritated colon but that's it. There are no swollen lymph nodes, which I was most concerned about finding. Her littermate survived six weeks post diagnosis (FNA after the imaging suggested lymphoma) with prednisone and no chemo. His complete loss of muscle mass during this time is the reason I am so terrified to prednisone. She is on her first full day of pred and prescription food. Things are good. I hope this is the push we needed to get her over the hump. Is your girl having exteme and uncontrollable diarrhea? Charlotte had this onset very suddenly, pred slowed it down while she was in the e-vet but the dosage would have had to be constantly increased. Her poor skinny little butt was so raw and burned from the constant leakage...she had to be cleaned up every 30 minutes and her bones were so much more visible after less than 24 hours. Her appearance scared the bejesus out of us...we could not, in clear conscience, bring her home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Budesonide does sound good but I will note that here we have never had muscle-wasting side effects with prednisone. All we've ever gotten here with it is a better appetite, extra drinking/peeing, and reduced inflammation. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 I had mentioned above that Ace was on pred for YEARS with zero issues (her blood work was perfect-you would never have known she was a 12 year old with leukemia who was taking pred). Also Carrie had been on it off and on when she has had a back issue. It's the only thing that works. Zero issues. Hopefully it will just help get you through this patch and get everything calmed down for her and get her eating reliably again. Quote Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inugrey Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 I'm waiting to talk to her about this. My nervousness regarding the muscle mass is increased because I saw it happen (at a higher dosage) and the dog it happened to shares the same DNA. I figure she is more inclined to this side effect since I saw it in Inu. She is eating for the second straight day in a row, which is novel of late. Her output wasn't good this morning, hopefully it was just the reintroduction of kibble. Charess, I'm sorry you went through so much with your girl. We can laugh about it now, but we brought Inu home before the pred really started fighting the cancer. I remember well the raw butt and leaking. He wasn't the kind of dog who would just take it if he was uncomfortable, so we had to stop cleaning his bottom because he would go Cujo on us. I can laugh now, but we fell asleep that night and he was a leaky stinky mess. When we woke up the next morning he had cleaned himself. Quote Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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