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Reactivity- Only On Leash, Only During Introductions


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After being around large groups of leashed dogs all weekend at Grapehounds, it became VERY apparent that Truman has a problem with leash reactivity. It upsets me because he never had a problem with this before, and I'm wondering if I need to stop taking him to greyhound events altogether. This is how it usually goes. When we're getting ready to go somewhere, I can tell he is happy and excited, but he is very reluctant to put on the leash and harness. Sometimes I have to kind of corner him in the hallway to get the leash on. Then when we're out somewhere with other leashed dogs, he is curious, but on edge. He is okay with seeing the dog from a "safe" distance, at least 2-3 feet. He'll watch them with his ears perked and sometimes move to get a closer vantage point. But if the dog starts approaching him (and especially if the dog sniffs him from behind) it results in an immediate bark/growl from Truman. If the other dog is overly rambunctious or pushy, he will bare his teeth. With larger dogs or dogs of the same size it's more of a problem (introductions with small dogs tend to go much better).

 

This kept happening over and over at Grapehounds, so I started to tell people that he wasn't friendly and not to allow their dogs to approach. Of course, they're "greyhound people" so they get it and were happy to do that. But it's really disheartening and embarrassing to Truman (who literally used to pull me across the street to meet another dog) becoming so antisocial. I really do not believe it's alpha-dominant behavior. I think it's the result of one bad experience (or several bad experiences that were seemingly insignificant to me). And now he's very fearful to be on-leash in the presence of unfamiliar dogs. I should also mention that he is just turning 2 at the end of August, so in many ways, he's still in that "not very confident adolescent" stage. The weirdest part about this behavior is that he is fine with other dogs off-leash. The only issues I have with him at dog parks is when another dog tries to jump on top of him, gets in his face, or tries to come at him from behind. Then he gives a little "errr" or a bark that signals he's uncomfortable, which to me, is appropriate dog-dog communication. I took him to the off-leash dog park in Ithaca, and he was having an excellent time with a Shiba Inu and a little fox terrier. They ran around together, shared the baby pool. No incidents whatsoever. Then the next day at one of the wineries (where all the dogs were on leash), he had an absolute meltdown when a group of three borzoi passed closely near him. I had Sterling take him out to the car for about 20 minutes just so he could settle down. FInally, I decided to make a little area behind the counter where I was selling my collars, and I blocked it off with stacks of chairs. I took the leash off and he was finally able to relax, even though there were still tons of dogs in view.

 

The only research I can find on leash reactivity is for dogs who become reactive at the sheer sight of another dog. It's recommended to practice "watch me" and give treats for a calm reaction. Truman already does that well. Right now, we're actually in a TDI Prep class because he is well-behaved in mainly every other aspect. It's only when the other dog approaches or tries to sniff (and presumably he feels trapped by the leash) that he becomes reactive. What can I do training wise to help?

Edited by a_daerr
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Basically same training as the "watch me" -- you want to teach him what TO do when other dogs approach. You might need to recruit some friends and acquaintances to help so you can manage the interactions. And do use muzzles.

 

Getting him to be calm and quiet when other dogs approach closely would start with him being calm and quiet when other dogs are at a greater distance. He may seem fine at that point. Give your instruction ("Easy," "Quiiiiiiiiet," whatever) and your praise/reward anyways. Spend a LOT of time at that. Many sessions. Until he spots another dog and immediately looks to you for his direction/praise/reward.

 

Meanwhile, you want to avoid situations where he gets so uncomfortable he tenses up. Hard to do at a crowded dog event, not as hard at a more open one.

 

Good luck!

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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That's the frustrating thing. We've done "watch me" to death, and he's great at that. Ultimately, I want him to be able to appropriately greet and sniff other dogs on leash. Not "watch me" while another dog is sniffing him up and down. Does that make sense? :dunno

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Guest DragonflyDM

So... I am not sure I can give you the magic solution on how to fix the problem. I can only give you my educated summation on why this behavior might be happening.

 

So if Truman isn't aggressive when he is off leash, then I would conclude that it isn't a fear response to space or lack of confidence. So the next conclusion would be frustration which can't be expressed in any other way. He is emotionally overwhelmed with no outlet because he is on leash.

 

I would try the opposite "look at me" and give him more latitude on the leash (maybe double the leash so he has more freedom) to allow him an outlet for expression. If you are worried about aggressive play, then muzzle.

 

I see the same behavior in my teenager. She can't go do something with her friends she sees at the mall when shopping with me, and she feels 'leashed" so she becomes a horrible pain in my rear end. But she has a myriad of communications tools to annoy me. Dogs really don't have many tools and it flows over into barks and such.

 

Just my theory.-

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Yep, makes sense. But you have to tell him what to do and practice it and praise him mightily for it. So your friends should have some dogs that he will allow to approach and sniff on leash :) .

 

Usually the dog starts to think about these things before we notice -- it would be easier to notice if *we* were facing the dog but still sometimes difficult. Hence practicing even when the other dogs are at some distance.

 

I had a dog who was what folks would call reactive to others, and who in fact really did not like most other dogs under any circumstances. I wouldn't've taken her to an extremely crowded venue, but as long as I stayed alert she learned to do well enough at places where we could quickly escape the crowd if need be. The skills she needed weren't *exactly* "watch me" skills -- you might search for Giselle's "LAT" (look at that) videos because there is a difference. It isn't entirely reasonable for a dog to "watch me" when a threat is approaching, and a dog still needs to know what to do when that other dog has approached -- stand calmly, do some sniffing of his/her own, move away ......

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Guest DragonflyDM

I would also follow this up that extra freedom with lots of recall and treats so that they keep in mind that they are given freedom but there is still a gentle but firm heirarchy in the house. When play time is over, or inappropriate, it is times to listen to daddy and come back to a heel.

 

And oddly enough--- what I do with my duaghter. I let her go with her friends, but she knows that a call from me on the phone and she has to get back to me pronto.

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Any thoughts on the harness? Could that be another reason he's feeling "trapped"? I've been doing some basic leashing training 101 at home over the past few days, like clicking the leash on his martingale, and giving treats. Letting him wear the leash around the house for awhile without anything scary happening and lots of treats. He's doing fine with that, but he really seems to dislike the harness. When I got it out yesterday, he ran away upstairs. After a minute or so, he cautiously came down and took the treats, but still did not want anything to do with the harness. Very hesitant to even come near it- I didn't even try putting it on him.

 

The reason I have been using the WWW because he's a puller when he's hyper-stimulated. And he's 84 pounds and STRONG. He heels nicely on walks and in class, but he still pulls when he's excited. Maybe I should just put more work into loose leash walking and heeling without the harness? I wonder if that would improve anything?

Edited by a_daerr
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If he dislikes the harness, that could sure contribute.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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Guest DragonflyDM

I am a behaviorist of people who happens to find more commonality between dogs and people than most humans would like to admit. I normally steal more from dog training to help humans than the other way round.

 

But I think that going on walks where you give more freedom for him to move and stop to explore makes sense in a journey of making him feel less restricted and frustrated on the leash ids a good thing. When he gets excited, do the recall/look at me and change direction. Whenever, he thinks he is running the show or knows what to do enough to start pulling surprise him with an unexpected change. And then lots of praise for good behavior. He should (in my theorizing of behavior) find some confidence in his freedom and emotional health AND at the same time look to you for guidance and direction instead of being a willful teen who "knows everything and wants to do their own thing."

Edited by DragonflyDM
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Guest Wasserbuffel

It's been three years that I've been working on this with Jayne, and I've come to the conclusion that she's just a moody cuss. I've nicknamed her Grumpus. And while she's vastly improved over where she was when I first got her I've come to the conclusion that she'll never get better than she is now.

 

Jayne is definitely not fear reactive, she's just exceedingly strict about greetings and her personal space. Amusingly enough she's more tolerant with other breeds than with greyhounds.

 

I've worked with rewarding her for calm greetings, feeding her a yummy treat while another dog sniff her butt (a capitol offense in Jayne's world). It used to be that we had to stay completely separate from the rest of the group at all times. Now she can often mingle with the other greys, I just have to guard her tush.

 

One thing that, paradoxically, works for Jayne is to allow her to have her say. If we're meeting a single on-leash dog while walking I'll always alert the owner that Jayne will correct the other dog if/when it sniffs her rear, but that she's not aggressive. Most of the time the other owner will allow a greeting. Jayne usually snarks, the other dog will give calming signals, then they're the best of friends for the rest of the encounter and will be able to meet peacefully in the future.

 

At meet and greets I muzzle her for the first few minutes, while everyone is all excitedly greeting. Sometimes she greet everyone perfectly, but if she decides someone needs to be snarked at, there's no danger of an accident. The muzzle can come off when everyone is just calmly milling about.

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Zoe HATED having her butt sniffed, but would take those liberties with all other dogs. I finally got her a scarf that read "No tailgating" :)

 

She improved over time, but it was a right of passage at playgroup to get snarked at by Zoe. If you didn't, then you just weren't worth the effort and that's no good! She kept those boys in line though, let me tell you!

 

It is frustrating though. I feel your pain.

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Cindy with Miss Fancypants, Paris Bueller, Zeke, and Angus 
Dante (Dg's Boyd), Zoe (In a While), Brady (Devilish Effect), Goose (BG Shotgun), Maverick (BG ShoMe), Maggie (All Trades Jax), Sherman (LNB Herman Bad) and Indy (BYB whippet) forever in my heart
The flame that burns the brightest, burns the fastest and leaves the biggest shadow

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Well, we went to the dog park last night, and again, Truman was a perfect gentleman off leash. Allowed several introductions and butt sniffs- even play bowed and ran with the other dogs. This reinforces the idea that our root problem is the leash. I have a call with our trainer tonight to discuss a plan for training. In the meantime, we are going to do a lot of loose leash walking exercises to hopefully eliminate the harness.

 

Another thing I have to remind myself is that Truman is not a track greyhound. He never grew up with hundreds of over greyhounds, interacted with them, and learned to trust. So for me to expect him to just be okay with lots of dogs in a tight space approaching and sniffing him... It's just way too overwhelming. Truman doesn't have the attraction to greyhounds that an ex-racer has.

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One thing I've learned from Turid Rugaas is how important an oblique approach is to dogs. When on a leash, dogs can't do the automatic wide circle around approach because we humans share walking paths and approach from the front. This could be part of his leash reactivity (just a feeling of restriction from being able to set the pace and approach obliquely and call it off when he wants to).

 

Another thing is he may be responding to his discomfort in the harness and associating that discomfort with the dogs. You can actually make a dog leash aggressive by causing pain or fear (and I would suggest maybe even discomfort or startlement for more sensitive personalities) when other dogs approach. Which really sucks if your dog automatically goes forward toward other dogs and makes themselves uncomfortable doing it, and then associates that with the other dog and not their own behavior. Can you work dilligently on training him to like the harness, with really tiny steps? Maybe have it visible near his dish at mealtimes (lying on the floor, on a hook nearby). If you're clicker training him, try putting the harness in the middle of the floor and ignoring it completely - and click and reward for even looking at it at first, then for approaching it, sniffing it...then for letting you touch it and him at the same time without actually moving the harness, etc. This would be a very slow process, which might mean you can't use it for a while. I'd limit his on-leash approach of dogs during this time and walking with his regular collar and reward reward reward for everything he does right.

 

Just my $0.02. We have worked with Allie on her leash reactivity, and she can actually turn from snarky dogs now without reacting. It can work! Your row-to-hoe is larger than ours, though (by about 45 lbs!). Good luck!

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I'm actually not as big of a fan of the watch me method as I am about using straight up classical conditioning for this issue. With "watch me" the dog relies on you to tell him what to do. With classical conditioning, you are changing the way the dog feels about the situation and the appropriate behavior is becoming automatic/ingrained. When Pat Miller first taught me to use the classical conditioning method it didn't make much sense to me because sometimes you end up feeding (ie. rewarding) when the dog is worked up or on the verge of reacting (I also use it for dogs with a high prey drive, which seemed even more counterintuitive), but now that I've seen it in action, this is the method I stick with.

 

So, how to do it? It's simple. Every time Truman sees a dog, feed. Feed feed feed until the dog is out of sight, then stop feeding. Repeat ad nauseum. You want to try to keep him far enough away that he doesn't lose it (go over threshold), but obviously close enough that he's noticing the other dog. Obviously if he's over threshold he won't take the food, but if he's getting a little keyed up and will still take the food, keep feeding. Initially you will probably just be shoving the treats under his nose as he watches the dog. Over time, he will start to make the association: dogs appearing = food and he'll start looking to you automatically for the food. When this happens, you let him see the dog first, look at you, then feed. Let him look back, look at you, feed. Repeat until the dog disappears. When this first starts to happen, you'll have to go back and forth between waiting for him to look and just putting the treats in front of his face depending on how close/stimulating/etc. the other dog is. It will take some time, but once you've got it down pat, you can start working on getting closer to other dogs.

 

If you can change his feelings about seeing other dogs when he's on lead using this method, you may get to the point where he can feel relaxed starting to meet other dogs on lead. But honestly, he may be a dog where you just need to skip that part, or you're very discerning about who he meets. Zuri meets some dogs on lead, but they have to be incredibly relaxed, calm, and very clearly social - soft wags, approaching slowly and calmly, moving right from the nose sniff on to the butt sniff, not jumping, etc. And when we do this, we keep it short! 3 seconds, then I call (not pull) Zuri away and reward him. If things have gone well and the dogs are both still interested, we'll do it again. He has doggie friends in the neighborhood now, but there are some we'll never try to meet because of the way they act.

 

I would try the classical conditioning and see how things go. But then ask yourself why it's important that he meet dogs on lead. Is it for his benefit or yours? Leash greetings are tricky to start, then you add in multiple dogs on lead and the potential for tangling screwing it up is higher, then you add in a dog whose not completely comfortable, to me it's just not worth it a lot of the time.

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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All very good info. I have been reading up on Turid Rugaas and 'parallel walking.' I think that could go a long way (and be much less pressure) in making Truman more comfortable on leash. Also, no more harness altogether. Just seeing his reaction when I brought the harness out (turning and running away), it's clear that it's not working as a training tool.

 

And Jen, I definitely agree. This is more for my benefit than his. We're doing TDI training together, and I think he could be a good candidate since he does enjoy people. But I know he won't be able to pass the test if he's this reactive on leash... Especially since the test now requires you to test in the presence of several other dogs and do down-stays right next to them other dogs.

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Something else you might do is just start associating collar/harness related things with treats. It's pretty common after a period of time with your dog being reactive for us to start jerking the dog away when they start to react, or to tighten up the leash when we see a dog approaching. So I started doing stuff like that when we were alone without dogs around and immediately treating. Obviously I'm not jerking hard on the leash, just giving enough of a pull for Zuri to feel pressure and feeding immediately. I also had to do the same thing with the leash getting wrapped around his hind end. That turned into something that he might react about even if it was just us, but Violet's leash got caught under his tail for instance and that was often what led to issues during normal dog greetings (they'd start spinning and a leash would get wrapped). I think the latter started to happen later when his LS started to develop, but either way, now he just looks to me for his treat when it happens. The other day the leashes got so tangled that he was pretty much forced into a sit and he just looked for his treat. I was honestly amazed at that one, but hey, classical conditioning has been around forever for a reason. ;)

 

Anyway, point being, if there are precursors to his reactivity, like even putting on his leash, start associating those things with treats as well.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Don't be so sure he can't pass a TDI test. Class-type situation may be different for him. My reactive dog never went for anybody at class, including times when a rambunctious dog would get loose and rush at/near her during long stays. She growled a time or two but that was it.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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might i suggest mcdevitt's control unleashed and emma parsons click to calm. those books are, to me, priceless. using the "look at that" , click, treat , has helped us overcome a lot of reactive situations. it got to the point i could say "look at that" and he would look at the dog and focus right back to me. its a long road, but reactivity can be unconditioned. good luck!

Edited by DofSweetPotatos
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Ugh, well, bad news. He crossed his threshold in class today and got very reactive with a Rottweiler who made eye contact with him. The other dog also responded aggressively, which almost started a fight. It was awful, and his focus then continued to decline for the rest of class. We're going to have to start a very structured training program. Here's what I'm thinking, and maybe you all can offer your thoughts.

 

1. I ordered a book on Amazon specifically geared toward leash reactivity (Patricia McConnell and Karen London). I'm going to start by reading that and applying the information in conjunction to any help his trainer can give me.

 

2. Lots of leash walking with no harness. Whenever he starts pulling, I give up the slack in leash, and immediately turn and start walking in the opposite direction. I just started doing that a few days ago on walks, and it has improved things a good bit. With enough practice, that will hopefully teach him that pulling will not get him to his desired destination. Then ultimately, if I can eliminate the fear/pain associated with the leash and totally remove the harness, that should make dog-dog introductions easier.

 

3. No dog parks for awhile. He seems to have a combination of leash frustration and leash aggression- sometimes he gets spazzy (barking, jumping, lunging) because he wants to play with the other dog. It's happened on our walk last night with a Weimaraner (one he's already familiar with from the dog park). Other times, like in class today, it was a sheer fear-aggression response. So we can't do dog parks unless he can learn appropriate greetings on leash first.

 

4. Classes and private sessions. I'm going to have to keep him in a class at all times now to keep practicing focus and reinforcing positive experiences with other dogs. I'm also going to see about having a trainer come out and do private sessions to help with some specific problems. He acts much so much better at home and in class. Also, I know how to manage his behavior then. It's a different story when we're out in public and he's lost all focus. Maybe they can help me recognize and manage his thresholds better.

 

The one thing I'm conflicted about is continuing the training session AFTER he's crossed his threshold. I've read some material that says once the meltdown occurs, it's best to stop the training. When their fight or flight response happens, and the adrenaline chemicals enter their body, no more learning can occur. Then other trainers say that removing them from the situation inadvertently rewards them by giving them what they want. Like today in class, after his meltdown, he started losing focus rapidly. I wonder if I should've just stopped then and there?

 

Hopefully I'll get everything figured out, and he can start improving. Poor guy. I feel like such a failure. :(

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Have you thought about using a haltie/head halter? It's one of the only ways to reliably shift a dog's line of sight and redirect their focus, which might be useful in this case. There are pros and cons to weigh, but, again, tugging on a collar isn't always enough to break a dog's gaze or line of sight.

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Fair enough. Also, you probably have already considered this, but how are you holding the leash? Are you preemptively tightening your grip and putting tension on the lead? That can contribute to a dog's stress too.

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2. Lots of leash walking with no harness. Whenever he starts pulling, I give up the slack in leash, and immediately turn and start walking in the opposite direction....

3. No dog parks for awhile. ...

...

... after his meltdown, he started losing focus rapidly. I wonder if I should've just stopped then and there?

 

 

2. Over the years, I have found that it works better, faster, to simply stop when the dog pulls and move ahead only when the leash comes slack again. YMMV.

 

3. I thought your dog parks were off leash?

 

... meltdown: If he's losing focus, then I would either stop there or have a little time out. Not a time out like people give their children :lol -- I just remove the dog from the class, decompress for 5 minutes or so, and then see if that refreshes the dog enough to resume training. Most of our classes have been indoors, so decompression for us is going outside for a few minutes -- wander around, sniff some things or, if class has been slow and dog is antsy, jog a little. If the dog isn't interested, nothing good but sometimes something bad can come of continuing the training session.

 

 

ETA: I think the stuff about person tightening up on the dog's leash causing problems is overrated. Yeah, if you develop a stranglehold. Otherwise I just wouldn't worry about it much.

 

I *would* say, the amount of slack in a leash for most dogs during training and in unfamiliar situations should be roughly 2". No giant dangling loops of leash. This means you have to adjust the leash a lot, in the beginning. I mostly use a 4' leash 'cause it's less to wrestle with; you can always clip on an extension for on-leash stays.

Edited by Batmom

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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2. Over the years, I have found that it works better, faster, to simply stop when the dog pulls and move ahead only when the leash comes slack again.

This was actually my first plan of attack (and also how I trained Henry), but Truman didn't seem to understand. He would just stand at the end of the leash, not pulling, but still not loosening up. Even when he loosened, I couldn't easily get him back to heel position. He'd want to be way out in front of me. When I turn in a circle, he has to hurry to catch up with me, and then I can reward him for being in a heel. He also doesn't seem to want to pull if he doesn't know where the destination is. It's working pretty well so far.

 

I think you are right about giving him a decompress-type time out. I'm going to try that.

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