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Arrow's Bone Cancer. Need Some Guidance


Guest sethbest

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Some very wise words from Patricia McConnell's blog (https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/love-guilt-putting-dogs-down) about when she had to euthanize her heart dog:

 

But as he always had, Luke left me with a gift. It took awhile, but I slowly began to notice how EVERYONE I talked to who loved their dog, like we all love ours, was guilty about something related to the dog's death. It didn't matter how or why they died: hundreds of owners, from professional trainers and behaviorists to the dog loving public, found something to feel guilty about. "I should have seen the symptoms sooner," or "How could I have not known that the lock on the door was faulty and allowed my dog to run out the door?" or "Surely I could somehow have prevented the bite if I just hadn't...."

 

Here's what Luke taught me, along with the wise comments of a psychologist friend: It is easier to believe that we are always responsible ("if only I had done/not done this one thing....") than it is to accept this painful truth: We are not in control of the world. Stuff happens. Bad stuff. As brilliant and responsible and hard working and control-freaky that we are, sometimes, bad stuff just happens. Good people die when they shouldn't. Gorgeous dogs brimming with health, except for that tumor or those crappy kidneys, die long before their time. Dogs who are otherwise healthy but are a severe health risk to others end up being put down. It's not fair, it's not right, and it hurts like hell. But please, please, if you've moved heaven and earth to save a dog and haven't been able to... just remember: Stuff happens. We can't control everything. (Difficult words to dog trainers I know... Aren't we all control freaks to some extent?) You didn't fail. You tried as hard as you could. It's okay.

 

To all of us: Try folding up that guilt and pain like a pile of dirty, ripped clothing and throwing it away. Remember: Much of what we love about dogs is that they live in the present and accept what happens. That's our job, to accept what happens sometimes, even though it's the hardest job of all.

How very true, but difficult to accept. We are NOT in charge of the world and all who are in it. We are NOT in charge of every single thing within arm's reach and everything beyond. We like to think we do the best we can, but we don't, not always. Even if we do, it often doesn't get us what we want or need. Sometimes we cannot think straight because other "stuff" is happening. Life interferes while we are making other plans, taking care of other business. We are humans, that is all. Our dogs are the divine ones. "Dog" spelled backwards is "god."

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Guest elliemae421

I have been thinking about Arrow a lot! Let me know if you need recipes still,okay! I have been so busy,have not been on here much! :riphair

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I wouldn't bother with all those supplements. Shoot, if he wants ice cream and cake, you might as well give it to him. You're not going to change the end result with herbs.

 

My personal feeling is that I would not even bring my dog home from the vet if I were told he had osteo in his shoulder. There is no happy ending here, for him, or for you. He has no concept of "just a few more weeks." That's for you. But it's a very personal decision, and I am very, very sorry for you and your dog.


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Susan,  Hamish,  Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck

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Guest sethbest

Elliemae, I would love those recipes. I can't figure out how to private message on this forum though. I don't really mind posting my email here, but I don't know if that would be against the site policy. The local pet food store here has raw organic frozen meat paddies. I've started using these, and mixing in other good things like eggs, bacon, roast beef, cottage cheese, etc... This has proved much easier than steaming a chicken ever two days.

 

GeorgeofNE, yours is the most callous and unhelpful response I've received yet, thanks. I am already incredibly grateful for the two great weeks I've had with him. If you consider extra time just for the human, then you are essentially saying that the life and experiences of the dog do not matter, and this I completely disagree with. The grief and loss are just for me, I know he doesn't feel them and I'm grateful for that, but if there exist ways to give him more happy time then I will do it.

 

He is tolerating the supplements well, and he's eating raw organic and seems incredibly happy. Short walks, lots of attention, wonderful food. I am incredibly glad for this extra time with my wonderful Arrow.

 

Had some trouble with stomach problems until I got him on Pepcid. The medicine had his stomach too acidic I guess.

 

His pain management is going well, he's only gone up from 4x50mg Tramadol a day to 6x50mg so far. Some of the supplements he's taking are anti-inflammatory so hopefully that is helping as well.

 

I'll post some pictures, thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions.

 

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Edited by sethbest
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I reallly need support as my Maxwell was diagnosed with sarcoma in the left shoulder - not 100% defined as osteo but they are 99% sure it is with fine needle aspiration and xrays on July 8th - the UW vet clinic Madison didnt want to put him through the biopsy. He has had radiation and will be going next week for his 2nd pamidronate treatment. He was on tylenol w/ codiene and gabapentin but in the last couple weeks he has not been painful so he is just on gabapentin now. I too am scared of the fracture. I dont let him run but we do take walks together, he wont use the ramp so I help him out of saturn vue with an old dog bed a giant pillow on the ground. He does jump up in the car and the back is padded. He walks down steps and wont walk up he always jumps up. When we have steps I have a large winter scarf I use as a sling on the left side and help him glide up. The steps are at the office i work at and he can come to work with me. He is a big boy 80lbs and I am alone so I do worry about getting him in the car if he cant - i do have some nice neighbors I think someone would help. I went through osteo of the wrist with my girl Gail in 2010 the cancer had metastisized to the lung so it was pain control radiation / pamidronate and pain meds. She was with me and Max for 4 months after diagnosis. One day she just didint seem herself I asked my mom to come while I went to work. I called at noon and decided to go home she didnt get off her orthopedic bed to greet me .She was not an real affectionate girl but that day she just kept giving me kisses. She was really having a hard time walking, she panted a lot - I thought it was time. It was very hard but with the support of the vet i got through it - I just told her no more pain. My husband lost his battle with cancer in 2006 and told her to go find Lynn. As i did with Gail I just hope I made the right decision for Max. We mayng

try artemisian in Oct - 2 months after radiation or the UW may have a clinical trial. i keep checking to see it there is something for him. My heart goes out to all that have had on this journey but I know our Greys are glad that they have us.

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Guest elliemae421

Here is my email ! Email me ASAP! Then I will take this down! It is greyt2dogz@comcast.net! Then shoot me an email with your name so i know who you are!

I think you have to have so many posts on here before you can message people. I was just recently able to start messaging!

Edited by elliemae421
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Going to do a quick chime in here. Please consider adding gabapentin to your daily meds. I also took a peek at your rads-does look like a lesion in the proximal humerus :-(. Another drug that we don't often speak of here is amantadine-may help control the pain too.

Hugs to Arrow. Cancer sucks :-(

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I'll post some pictures, thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions.

 

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Those are very sweet pictures of Arrow. I am glad you are getting these extra days and weeks with your boy. They are extra special and you will never forget these times, that I promise you. I do hope you get more time and the meds continue to help him. I second the Gabapentin, it's a great drug with little to no side effects but it helps a lot with pain. Please give your special boy a hug for me.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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He's probably in a great deal of pain. My vet told me that any time they show pain with osteo, such as a limp, what they are actually feeling is probably a zillion times worse, as osteo is extremely painful.

Edited by robinw

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Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19.

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Guest sethbest

I had a whole update typed up when the power went out, crazy storms this season. Anyways I'll summarize it-

 

Thanks for the tips everybody.

I talked to my vet about Gabapentin the day after the diagnosis. He suggested we save it for when Arrow starts showing pain even with the pain medicine as he is worried about the side-effects. I'm seeing him tomorrow for our Pamidronate session (which I am looking forward to, the first one had such a marked improving effect) so I'll ask him again. Alternately I have another neuropathic pain treatment that is a bit safer than Gabapentin that I am researching at the moment, but won't go into detail here for... legal reasons and probably forum rules too.

 

I am self employed so I have been able to reschedule a lot of appointments and stay at home with Arrow most days. I keep a constant eye on his pain level- He will grumble in his sleep if it's bothering him, and while he's silent when awake I can tell when it starts to hurt him from his eye movement and respiration. When I notice him panting and his eyes darting I increase the dosage. Keeping track of increases from day to day helps me schedule his dosages for the next day. So far this is working well. Some days are clearly worse though and these days I dose higher, and ice the shoulder.

 

He has been basking a lot in the grass outside. He used to do this when he was younger, 4-5 and then lost interest in it until now. He goes out maybe 3 times a day just to roll around in the grass, two of the pictures I posted are from one such session. I think he likes the heat.

 

I have three different herbal anti-inflammatories coming in monday that I will test out one by one to see what helps. The artemisinin yahoo group has been an incredible help with finding effective supplements and great ideas for treatment. I had a lot of trouble getting Arrow to take his medicine early on, even wrapped in roast beef. A suggestion of cream cheese has been a lifesaver.

---

On another note, my other dog Biscuit (terrier/basset mix) found and ate a steak bone last week. She wasn't eating for 2 days so we brought her in. Sure enough it was stuck, and she had immediate surgery. She recovered well, and is back to her normal self now. We have a week left with her cone on though, and shes back to her over-energetic self. This has been very problematic as I have been worried with her slamming into everything in the house with her cone that she might trip up Arrow. One upside is she can't get to his food bowl with the cone on so one less thing to watch. Oh well, crazy life. There have been at least 3 huge family crisis over the last two weeks too. The one upside to Arrow's diagnosis is all of these big problems would seem huge normally, but compared to Arrows stuff barely phases me.

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I talked to my vet about Gabapentin the day after the diagnosis. He suggested we save it for when Arrow starts showing pain even with the pain medicine as he is worried about the side-effects.

 

Your dog has an extremely painful terminal illness. What Gabapentin side effects is your vet concerned about? Nearly every dog in the multiple osteo threads here on GT took Gapapentin at some point in their osteo battle, including mine (300mg TID in combination with Tramadol and Deramaxx). I wouldn't hold off on any pain med at this point in his illness.

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Tricia with Kyle, our senior mutt dog 
Always missing Murray MaldivesBee Wiseman, River, Hopper, Kaia, and 
Holly Oaks Holly
“You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.“          -Bob Dylan

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Guest sethbest

I'll grill him on it again tomorrow. He's open to suggestions and looks up things I research so I'm sure he'll prescribe some when I press the issue. When I looked it up the major side effect was possible seizures. Arrow had an undiagnosed condition last year that I thought may have been seizures, so maybe this affected his decision? While researching dosages for Arrow yesterday though I found a document on LUMBOSACRAL STENOSIS, and am almost 100% sure that is what it was.

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With all due respect, I might not worry about side effects at this point. I think your main focus should be keeping him free of the extreme pain of osteo. I know, it sucks. I've been through it twice, most recently this past May :cry1

Edited by robinw

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Xavi the galgo and Peter the cat. Missing Iker the galgo ?-Feb.9/19, Treasure (USS Treasure) April 12/01-May 6/13, Phoenix (Hallo Top Son) Dec.14/99-June 4/11 and Loca (Reko Swahili) Oct.9/95 - June 1/09, Allen the boss cat, died late November, 2021, age 19.

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Guest elliemae421

Here is my email ! Then shoot me an email with your name so i know who you are!

I think you have to have so many posts on here before you can message people. I was just recently able to start messaging!

 

Here is my email ! Then shoot me an email with your name so i know who you are!

I think you have to have so many posts on here before you can message people. I was just recently able to start messaging!

Glad I could get those to you!

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Guest sethbest

Thanks for all the links Elliemae, You've given me lots of reading for tomorrow!

 

Robinw, the vet makes the pill decisions but I will push him on it tomorrow. If it were my call I wouldn't use just tramadol either considering it's potential nausea effects and its mediocre pain treatment profile but I don't have a prescription pad. Up until now the tramadol and carprofen has worked fine, but I intend to start him on Gabapentin as soon as I can convince the vet.

 

As I said I am watching him very closely for pain indicators and dosing as appropriate. If his dosage seems low then maybe some of the supplements are lifting their weight? I know in the artemisinin email group many have had great success with some of the anti-inflammatory supplements.

 

Thanks everybody.

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Without sounding harsh or callous I must interject here--if you're seeing increased respiration, "eyes darting back and forth", moaning etc perhaps you need to rethink your intentions. Many, including myself have suggested starting gabapentin (which by the way is an incredibly safe medication that can be given in combination with any other drug--and infact is used as an anti seizure medication in humans-and is dirt cheap ) . Now is the time to use it--not when the pain becomes even more unbearable. I understand you can't script this yourself-its up to your vet which IMO is failing to provide proper veterinary care to your Arrow. If my dog was in such horrible pain as your boy is I would have given this vet his walking papers. You are your boys advocate. Demand it when you see him/her again.

I understand you are doing your best and if you are like most of here would do anything for your baby but, what your vet is doing is not enough. Your dog is hurting 24/7--pain meds can only take the edge off at best and your vet is not even scripting the minimum. If his pain can not be managed then, you need to release him from it.

Please accept this post with the well meaning it was intended. Hugs to Arrow--I hate cancer.

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Guest elliemae421

Please listen to tbhounds! She knows what she is talking about! I just got my gabapentin filled 120 pills was like $34 at Sam's club,with a business membership it was $16 !!!

You cannot beat it and Willie does greyt with it!!!!!

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Sethbest, while some responses may seem a bit harsh, they are not meant to be and these responses come from people who have gone down the same path you are. We all have battled this disease in different ways and bottom line is, the most important thing is keeping your pup comfortable which I know that is your intention. With Osteo as you may know, pain spikes occur and they can come on rapidly so ensuring your pup is well medicated is priority one and that's what sucks about all this as our pups can't talk to us and let us know just how they are feeling. Tracy (tbhounds) has very good advice both from a veterinary and personal experience and Gabapentin generally has few side effects and the benefits are good. I hope you are able to have a good discussion with your vet and that Arrow continues to enjoy life for as long as possible.

Kyle with Stewie ('Super C Ledoux, Super C Sampson x Sing It Blondie) and forever missing my three angels, Jack ('Roy Jack', Greys Flambeau x Miss Cobblepot) and Charlie ('CTR Midas Touch', Leo's Midas x Hallo Argentina) and Shelby ('Shari's Hooty', Flying Viper x Shari Carusi) running free across the bridge.

Gus an coinnich sinn a'rithist my boys and little girl.

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From my earlier post:

 


If you want to consider those treatments, you need to consult with an oncologist. I recommend you do this anyway as they seem to generally be much better about prescribing the correct doses of medications (and not holding back on the amounts you are instructed to give) because they understand that this is a terminal disease and the number one priority has to be pain management. Regardless of whether you work with an oncologist or your primary vet, you will want to have extra medication on hand and instructions on how to increase them incrementally should something happen (as it almost always seems to) during non-office hours. The best combination of meds seems to be Tramadol, an NSAID (sounds like you are using generic Rimadyl, I prefer Deramaxx myself but whatever works for your hound is fine), and Gabapentin. If you don't have all three, make sure you get them. You will want to add in Gabapentin before increasing the others (and you may already be maxed out on the NSAID - there's not a lot of wiggle room with those medications as they have the higher risk of side effects). Make sure you get Gabapentin in 100 mg capsules, not larger so you can give lower doses more frequently (every 6-8 hrs is preferred) and add it in gradually to avoid wooziness.

Edited by NeylasMom

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Gabapentin is classed as an anticonvulsant drug. It initially was developed to help control seizures in patients with epilepsy because it interferes with signals to the brain. There are online warnings to "consult your doctor if your seizures worsen" while on gabapentin, but that isn't because it causes seizures; it's because if seizures worsen, then gabapentin isn't helping so you need to take something else or go back to what you were taking before gabapentin. The side effects warned of for gabapentin are all related to allergic reactions to the drug; if you Google the drug online and read the official drug statements, I don't think you'll find a single one that warns of seizures as a possible side-effect. Gabapentin doesn't cause seizures, but sometimes it doesn't prevent them.

 

But human cancer patients taking gabapentin to help control epileptic seizures reported significantly less cancer pain than the other cancer patients, which is when doctors began using gabapentin to control neuropathic pain. (Also, restless legs syndrome. Also, shingles.) And vets are doing the same thing.

 

My Sam took gabapentin for arthritis for about 15 months with no side effects. I asked my vet to prescribe the 100mg capsules ($15 for 180 capsules with a Walgreen's prescription savings club card). Sam got a capsule three times a day to start, then we moved to two capsules in the morning, then two capsules twice a day and a single at dinner. (Gabapentin may take 48 hours to get up to full effectiveness.) Eventually, Sam was taking two 100mg capsules, four times a day (breakfast-lunch-dinner-bedtime). The vet said he could have 900mg a day--and he probably would have allowed Sam to take more, but Sam was also having LS issues and other problems, so I had to let him go.

 

Your vet is worried about a non-existent side effect of gabapentin. Your vet needs to stop Arrow's pain--now. You are the only one who can protect Arrow from a well-intentioned--but useless--drug protocol.

 

Two precautions: If you do start Arrow on gabapentin, don't take him off it abruptly; consult with a doctor about stepping down the dosage. And do not give liquid gabapentin; it's formulated for pediatric epilepsy patients, and often contains xylitol as a sweetener, and xylitol is toxic to dogs.

Edited by KF_in_Georgia

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Kathy and Q (CRT Qadeer from Fuzzy's Cannon and CRT Bonnie) and
Jane (WW's Aunt Jane from Trent Lee and Aunt M); photos to come.

Missing Silver (5.19.2005-10.27.2016), Tigger (4.5.2007-3.18.2016),
darling Sam (5.10.2000-8.8.2013), Jacey-Kasey (5.19.2003-8.22.2011), and Oreo (1997-3.30.2006)

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Sethbest, you are getting sincere and heartfelt advice from people who have seen what other dogs have gone through on a very personal level. From where I am sitting, it seems as if your vet is very detached from your dog's situation and is conducting a clinical trial on him. Why would he recommend denying medication until the pain gets worse...does that sound right to you? As someone else said, you are your dog's advocate. If your vet resents this, ditch him and get poor Arrow to another vet immediately or let him go. I lost two dogs within a week of diagnosis because I had the benefit of advice from other owners before I knew anything about this forum. There is no cure for Arrow, only unrelenting pain while his meds are being tinkered with.

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Gabapentin is classed as an anticonvulsant drug. It initially was developed to help control seizures in patients with epilepsy because it interferes with signals to the brain. There are online warnings to "consult your doctor if your seizures worsen" while on gabapentin, but that isn't because it causes seizures; it's because if seizures worsen, then gabapentin isn't helping so you need to take something else or go back to what you were taking before gabapentin. The side effects warned of for gabapentin are all related to allergic reactions to the drug; if you Google the drug online and read the official drug statements, I don't think you'll find a single one that warns of seizures as a possible side-effect. Gabapentin doesn't cause seizures, but sometimes it doesn't prevent them.

To be fair to Arrow's owner and because I don't want him to feel like he's being ganged up on, if you just google Gabapentin and start looking at the list of side effects on the main sites, seizures is listed. The same is true for Tramadol and actually when I looked into drug interactions, there was something that popped up for using the 2 together because doing so could increase the risk of seizures.What I remember reading was that each could lower the threshold for having a seizure so using the 2 in combination could potentially make the seizure more likely. This may very well only be true with people who already have seizures for whatever reason, but when you look it up, that is not in any way apparent. I remember being very concerned at the time, but I had to just think logically and realize that pain management was our highest priority and now, with plenty of personal experience as well as anecdotal evidence from this board and elsewhere I know that's not a real risk. Not trying to contradict what you're saying about the drug itself as I'm sure it's spot on, just saying how I can understand why the OP was concerned. And frankly, it's his vet's job to set him straight, which isn't happening and again, I just don't think regular vet's are often that educated on these sorts of things, which is why I always recommend the oncologist.

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest elliemae421

To be fair to Arrow's owner and because I don't want him to feel like he's being ganged up on, if you just google Gabapentin and start looking at the list of side effects on the main sites, seizures is listed. The same is true for Tramadol and actually when I looked into drug interactions, there was something that popped up for using the 2 together because doing so could increase the risk of seizures.What I remember reading was that each could lower the threshold for having a seizure so using the 2 in combination could potentially make the seizure more likely. This may very well only be true with people who already have seizures for whatever reason, but when you look it up, that is not in any way apparent. I remember being very concerned at the time, but I had to just think logically and realize that pain management was our highest priority and now, with plenty of personal experience as well as anecdotal evidence from this board and elsewhere I know that's not a real risk. Not trying to contradict what you're saying about the drug itself as I'm sure it's spot on, just saying how I can understand why the OP was concerned. And frankly, it's his vet's job to set him straight, which isn't happening and again, I just don't think regular vet's are often that educated on these sorts of things, which is why I always recommend the oncologist.

Well said,NeylasMom! He did get the Gabapentin and started Arrow on that. Hopefully this will work for him. :clover:goodluck

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How is Arrow doing?

Wondering the same thing. :hope

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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