Jump to content

Afraid Of Kids - Advice Please


Guest DMBFiredancer
 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest DMBFiredancer

Grace is terrified of kids when we are on walks.

When she hears them, she starts to freak out a bit then pull in the opposite direction to go home.

If she sees them first, same thing.

She won't pass them on the sidewalk without a lot of anxiety and pulling.

 

I've been trying to purposely let her watch and listen to kids from afar when we are on walks...making sure I stop for a minute so she can see that they are safe and giver her lots of calming words to soothe her.

Today I had a friend bring her smart and animal-savvy kids over. Grace observed me hugging the kids and talking to them with my arm around them so they were nice and close to me. The 4 year old girl brought a stuffie toy and sweetly placed it on Grace's bed. She also placed a piece of cheese there and a treat. Grace did not eat these until after they left, though.

 

When she is anxious she is not very food motivated.

For a few minutes the children and I interacted together with their mom and let Gracie watch, then the kids came near Grace with me and their mom so Grace could see that they are ok.

She stayed on her safe bed, but as soon as we walked away from her, she bolted towards the door to go out. I let her out and she just hid behind the palm tree for a bit. When she came back in she hid in a ball against the wall on the landing of the stairs, terrified. Before the kids left, the little girl came a bit up the stairs and waved bye to Grace. Then she calmly went up to her and pet her back softly. Grace was muzzled of course, so I wasn't too afraid of her being aggressive. She has never shown aggression at all, only FEAR.

 

In hindsight, maybe I should not have had the kids walk up to Grace at all (especially while on her safe bed - this is probably why she hid on the landing of the stairs.)

Maybe I should have just had the kids interact with me and only have Grace watch from afar on her bed?

 

I have other friends with animal-savvy kids that are willing to help out. The same friend from today is willing to help again, too.

 

What should I do the next time...and how soon is too soon to try again?

 

Thanks as always!

Edited by DMBFiredancer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest snowmo18

my boy Apollo was terrified of kids..not sure why, he had never been around them before we got him. We did a parade one time..and he walked as close to the center line of the street as possible to avoid the kids on the sidewalks on either side..all the other hounds loved getting petted..it was pretty silly looking :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither of my girls are comfortable around kids, or really any new people. When we have visitors they haven't already met, especially kids, I block the girls with a gate and they have their safe space away from the kids. When one of the girls is comfortable she may go up to the gate and we'll let the kid be sniffed etc. So yeah, I don't ever make them interact unless it is on their terms, particularly on their bed.

 

They are both good girls who have the flight instinct in uncomfortable situations. You can see the whites of their eyes when newbies enter. Even on walks they will hide behind me to not meet young folks. They sound a lot like your Grace when she bolted out the door.

 

Given time and good introductions there are a few kids who the girls won't run from in our house. I am always vigilant that a kid get no where near them if they are on a dog bed.

Colleen with Covey (Admirals Cove) and Rally (greyhound puppy)
Missing my beloved boy INU (CJ Whistlindixie) my sweetest princess SALEM (CJ Little Dixie) and my baby girl ZOE (LR's Tara)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having your friend and her animal-savvy kids come over is definitely the right thing to do - but don't let them approach her. Give her time. Sit in the room with the kids and play a game, talk, or something (but have it be something quiet). Have some cheese or meat goodies nearby. Let them stay an hour or so but not interact with Grace. As long as Grace is in the room or the next room, she'll be able to watch (or listen) and figure out that these kids don't mean any harm. Once she realizes this, she should start to get curious and come a little closer. Eventually she should be able to be in the same room with them and relax. It's important to take it slow and let her come to the realization that, hey, kids aren't so bad (and sometimes they bring yummy snacks). She may never like kids, but hopefully she'll be able to get to the point where they don't freak her out so much :)

Mom of bridge babies Regis and Dusty.

Wrote a book about shelter dogs!

I sell things on Etsy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Henry was very fearful of children. Even now, he doesn't love kids, but he did learn to tolerate them. We were very lucky to have an all-greyhound training class available in our area. Some of the owners in our class brought their children from time to time, and we did socialization that way. The kids would slowly walk around the room and toss treats to the dogs. Then we worked up to having the kids approach the dogs, pet them, skip around the room, throw a ball around. All with lots of reassurance and treats. It's a gradual process where one simple act is met with a positive experience, and you can continue building from there... I will say, we didn't try to tackle this issue until MONTHS after Henry was home. When we did, he and I had already cemented our relationship, and he was trusting of me. Until that point, we observed children at a distance or, if possible, avoided them.

 

Given Grace's reaction, I would say that it was waaay too much too soon. She's just starting to get used to "her" house, "her" bed, "her" routine. Now, her world is turned upside down because these tiny, loud people have infiltrated it! It gets frustrating because we as humans know there's nothing to be scared of. You want to say, "Buck up- face your fears." But the absolute worst mistake you can make with a fearful dog is to push them into something they're not ready for. Now that she's had what I would consider a "bad" experience (from your description of the retreating, hiding, refusal to take food), I wouldn't be surprised if Grace is even more afraid of children. You may even see her regressing in other ways because this was very scary, perhaps a little traumatizing in some ways. Don't feel bad though, it's a beginner's mistake. I did it too. And more than likely, she'll recover. Just remember though- it's MUCH easier to recover from an experience that was just a little bit scary where nothing really happened than a full-out fiasco where all her worst fears are confirmed.

 

Also, it's important to be careful when you're working with a fearful dog, as the fear can often translate to aggression if you're not totally perceptive of the dog's signals. Even the sweetest, most well-mannered dog can surprise you by growling or snapping when threatened. Henry snapped at a child twice in the time that I've had him. The second time, he was on his bed, which was in the corner of our living room. He felt helpless and cornered, and he lashed out in the only way he knew how. Both times were 100% my fault for pushing him too hard. I learned that it was better to go too slow than to overwhelm him and risk possible injury. At this point, be vigilant about not having ANYONE approach Grace on her "safe bed." It's essential that she have a place to retreat if she's feeling overwhelmed. Give her some more time to adjust, then slowly integrate a socialization program where you can practice in small intervals on neutral territory.

Edited by a_daerr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't push kids on her at this point. Let her settle in with other things first. When she's feeling pretty confident about going for walks in safe areas, have one kid come with you on some walkies -- you next to the dog, kid on your other side, have some conversations, maybe skip a little, stop and look at a dandelion or whatever .... When that seems OK, kid on other side of dog, same deal .....

 

For some dogs, just getting used to very plain home life takes a lot of brain power and there isn't much left over for additional new experiences, KWIM? After a couple of months, a few brain cells might well be freed up to contemplate children in a friendlier way :) .

 

 

 

 

ETA: For kids you have to pass on your walks, I'd keep doing @ what you're doing. Stop and let her watch for a few minutes from a safe distance, then skirt around them or turn and go the other way. Try to keep her safe distance away from them (I know this isn't always possible). Gradually, her safe distance should shorten up a bit but it may take some time.

Edited by Batmom

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't push kids on her at this point. Let her settle in with other things first. When she's feeling pretty confident about going for walks in safe areas, have one kid come with you on some walkies -- you next to the dog, kid on your other side, have some conversations, maybe skip a little, stop and look at a dandelion or whatever .... When that seems OK, kid on other side of dog, same deal .....

 

For some dogs, just getting used to very plain home life takes a lot of brain power and there isn't much left over for additional new experiences, KWIM? After a couple of months, a few brain cells might well be freed up to contemplate children in a friendlier way :) .

 

 

 

 

ETA: For kids you have to pass on your walks, I'd keep doing @ what you're doing. Stop and let her watch for a few minutes from a safe distance, then skirt around them or turn and go the other way. Try to keep her safe distance away from them (I know this isn't always possible). Gradually, her safe distance should shorten up a bit but it may take some time.

excellent advise- as always batmom!

 

annie is mortified of kids, after 2.5 yrs of ownership she doesn't freak when kids run by or go up to felix for hugs and kisses. she's just not comfortable w/ them and they now know it. when my neice visits w/ her 2 dog savy kids annie is crated. i've been a good enough great aunt to put annie in the bedroom w/ the gate up and let the kids hang out in the crate. what ever makes the dog happy, what ever makes the kids happy! it's easier not to fight it.

 

go sloooooooooooooow, reward w/ what ever she loves(marshmallows, dehydrated liver) after she passes kids. hey it took 2 years for annie to finally tolerate my son-in-law. he has a heavy spanish accent(from spain) and i think she may have had some negative experiences w/ some of the kennel help. but she takes now food from him, goes up for rubs and doesn't banish herself to the far end of the house.

 

not every dog was meant to be a therapy dog or owned by a family w/ kids, not every person was meant to have kids

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One piece of advice that I've read, is to offer treats or food when the fearful/uncertain stimulus appears in the environment. This teaches the dog to associate good things with that stimulus. (In this case, children.) But yeah, definitely let the dog approach the child. Also, 'Childproofing Your Dog' by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson has some great tips on how to acclimate your dog to the unpredictable noises and motions of little kids that often perplex dogs, and other ways to help dogs and children have positive relationships.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DMBFiredancer

I wouldn't push kids on her at this point. Let her settle in with other things first. When she's feeling pretty confident about going for walks in safe areas, have one kid come with you on some walkies -- you next to the dog, kid on your other side, have some conversations, maybe skip a little, stop and look at a dandelion or whatever .... When that seems OK, kid on other side of dog, same deal .....

 

For some dogs, just getting used to very plain home life takes a lot of brain power and there isn't much left over for additional new experiences, KWIM? After a couple of months, a few brain cells might well be freed up to contemplate children in a friendlier way :) .

 

 

 

 

ETA: For kids you have to pass on your walks, I'd keep doing @ what you're doing. Stop and let her watch for a few minutes from a safe distance, then skirt around them or turn and go the other way. Try to keep her safe distance away from them (I know this isn't always possible). Gradually, her safe distance should shorten up a bit but it may take some time.

 

Excellent advice for sure. I was actually thinking about this at lunch today...Am I doing TOO MUCH too soon in an effort to try to get her exposed to as much as possible?

 

You made a great point - getting used to home life *is* taking a lot out of her as it is....I probably should back off a little and let her adjust to home life before trying to dive her into too much.

go sloooooooooooooow, reward w/ what ever she loves(marshmallows, dehydrated liver)

 

 

marshmallows??!!!! really??!!!! oooh...must try!

One piece of advice that I've read, is to offer treats or food when the fearful/uncertain stimulus appears in the environment. This teaches the dog to associate good things with that stimulus. (In this case, children.) But yeah, definitely let the dog approach the child. Also, 'Childproofing Your Dog' by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson has some great tips on how to acclimate your dog to the unpredictable noises and motions of little kids that often perplex dogs, and other ways to help dogs and children have positive relationships.

 

Cool...I'll have to check that out! Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

start the rewards in a neutral situation- at home where she feels comfortable. use it as praise when she "kennel up!", comes when she is called, after or while you are petting her. all calm situations that should be acknowledged even though they may seem like small tasks. once she associates her treat w/ something positive- i.e. petting then start to give her a treat here and there when she is outside, after she goes potty. this way she will be used to receiving them outside. eventually when she's near kids- it can be 1/2 block away, as long as she notices they are there. as you pass by the kids, treat and praise- good girl. just keep on walking don't stop. eventually things fall into place.

 

some tracks use marshmallows, others twinkies(annie comes from a junk food junkie's track- both were used! she was really depressed when twinkies weren't out of circulation!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hot dogs, liverwurst, cubes of cheese, sausage, lunch meat, marshmallows, twinkies, peanut butter, vanilla wafers, dehydrated liver, pieces of deli roasted chicken (mine will do anything for KFC!)

 

Slice hot dogs *really* thinly, put on a paper towel and microwave for a few minutes until they get kind of crispy. They're less messy to carry this way.

 

Some dogs go bonkers over fruits and veggies. Some like Peeps. Some will be good with commercial treats and some like home made.

 

You just have to find what works for her! ;)

 

Patience Grasshopper! The time to press her *may* come, but it's not yet!

Chris - Mom to: Lilly, Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora)

35764734494_93de5b5963_b.jpg

Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DMBFiredancer

 

Patience Grasshopper! The time to press her *may* come, but it's not yet!

 

Thank you! I think this is exactly what I needed to hear. I am starting to think the same thing, too.

In an effort to expose her to as many things as possible, I think I may very well be overwhelming her.

I knew I would make mistakes...I am glad I have honest people to call me out on them...thanks! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mine are afraid of kids. I'm not planning on having kids for many reasons, one of which is my dogs were here first. I have kids give my dogs treats. They aren't as scared as yours seems, but I try not to overwhelm them and I make sure the kids aren't crazy. I will get between kids and my dogs or lecture the kids about calming down to help my dogs. Or if a kid is really nuts I don't let them near the dogs.

I did teach Sailor tricks so that kids can ask him to do stuff and hand him treats instead of petting him. They are amused, Sailors getting food without being pet and everyone is happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Henry was very fearful of children. Even now, he doesn't love kids, but he did learn to tolerate them. We were very lucky to have an all-greyhound training class available in our area. Some of the owners in our class brought their children from time to time, and we did socialization that way. The kids would slowly walk around the room and toss treats to the dogs. Then we worked up to having the kids approach the dogs, pet them, skip around the room, throw a ball around. All with lots of reassurance and treats. It's a gradual process where one simple act is met with a positive experience, and you can continue building from there... I will say, we didn't try to tackle this issue until MONTHS after Henry was home. When we did, he and I had already cemented our relationship, and he was trusting of me. Until that point, we observed children at a distance or, if possible, avoided them.

 

Given Grace's reaction, I would say that it was waaay too much too soon. She's just starting to get used to "her" house, "her" bed, "her" routine. Now, her world is turned upside down because these tiny, loud people have infiltrated it! It gets frustrating because we as humans know there's nothing to be scared of. You want to say, "Buck up- face your fears." But the absolute worst mistake you can make with a fearful dog is to push them into something they're not ready for. Now that she's had what I would consider a "bad" experience (from your description of the retreating, hiding, refusal to take food), I wouldn't be surprised if Grace is even more afraid of children. You may even see her regressing in other ways because this was very scary, perhaps a little traumatizing in some ways. Don't feel bad though, it's a beginner's mistake. I did it too. And more than likely, she'll recover. Just remember though- it's MUCH easier to recover from an experience that was just a little bit scary where nothing really happened than a full-out fiasco where all her worst fears are confirmed.

 

Also, it's important to be careful when you're working with a fearful dog, as the fear can often translate to aggression if you're not totally perceptive of the dog's signals. Even the sweetest, most well-mannered dog can surprise you by growling or snapping when threatened. Henry snapped at a child twice in the time that I've had him. The second time, he was on his bed, which was in the corner of our living room. He felt helpless and cornered, and he lashed out in the only way he knew how. Both times were 100% my fault for pushing him too hard. I learned that it was better to go too slow than to overwhelm him and risk possible injury. At this point, be vigilant about not having ANYONE approach Grace on her "safe bed." It's essential that she have a place to retreat if she's feeling overwhelmed. Give her some more time to adjust, then slowly integrate a socialization program where you can practice in small intervals on neutral territory.

 

Excellent advice a_daerr.

 

Yes, waaay too much, waaay too soon, especially inside Grace's new home environment where she needs MUCH more time to develop full trust of the safety of her own home and her adult people. Remember a racing Greyhound's limited life perspective. It's almost like a human moving to Mars.

 

A dog's fear of children is not an issue to push. An innocent, well meaning child can negatively impact a fearful dog for a looong time. A sudden act of aggression often stems from fear. (Please don't even allow adults to approach her while she's lying down, or to bend over her. Dogs can see that as threatening behavior.) Grace's stress level was very high to have been trying to escape the room and house + ignoring treats. (As I read your post, I expected to read that she tried to jump the fence to get away.) Earning her trust towards you is the most important thing for you to focus on at this early stage. Better to let dogs approach a person whenever the dog feels ready vs. the other way around.

 

Please be especially careful with her outside during walks, and around any doors leading to non-fenced areas. I highly recommend using a martingale collar, plus a harness on her while she's adjusting to this new life with strange outside noises, cars, people, etc. Please ensure she wears ID. Her martingale collar should fit snugly during walks, and be tested at the most narrow point on her neck just behind the ears. (Martingale should not come off over her ears easily. When you're taking it off, you should need to "work it" over her ears/head. Good to rotate the collar around so the softer nylon/fabric is going over tender ears instead of the hardware.)

 

I would completely avoid children for now. Grace is a sighthound so her eyes will be scanning the surroundings during walks anyway. She will be absorbing a ton of new information. Hopefully, over time she'll begin to feel more secure after many times of passing children from a far distance outside. I'd recommend learning more about dogs' body language and calming signals too.

 

Greyhounds can take some time to feel secure and blossom, but they are so worth our understanding patience. :)

Edited by 3greytjoys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless you HAVE kids, I don't really see this is a big problem!

 

Just make sure that her collar is properly fitted, and act like there is no big issue when she sees or hears them, and eventually she will learn to deal with them.


Hamish-siggy1.jpg

Susan,  Hamish,  Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DMBFiredancer

THANK YOU everyone for being so honest, helpful, and supportive in this thread! Your advice is just what I needed and I appreciate it so much! I was questioning myself whether it was too much too soon as well, judging by Grace's reactions with everything.

 

I had one voice in my head saying "she needs to gently be exposed," then my husband's tough love voice saying "you gotta throw her into it all -she's a dog she'll be FINE," to my mommy voice saying "maybe this is too much for this poor baby" all at once running through my head this past week....the entire spectrum of thoughts.

 

a_daerr, when 3greytjoys took your post and highlighted parts in red, then added more, that's when it really hit me. I am so thankful for you ALL for taking the time to type out such incredibly helpful advice. I needed this so much as a beginner!!!!!!

 

From today on, I am going to concentrate only on helping Grace get used to "her" house, "her" bed, "her" routine....that DOES make A LOT of sense!!!

I won't beat myself up over my mistakes either...thanks for helping me feel like it is ok to make mistakes. That one sentence in your post helped me more than you know!

 

I seriously want to hug you all for your help! :grouphug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DMBFiredancer

 

Excellent advice a_daerr.

 

Please be especially careful with her outside during walks, and around any doors leading to non-fenced areas. I highly recommend using a martingale collar, plus a harness on her while she's adjusting to this new life with strange outside noises, cars, people, etc. Please ensure she wears ID. Her martingale collar should fit snugly during walks, and be tested at the most narrow point on her neck just behind the ears. (Martingale should not come off over her ears easily. When you're taking it off, you should need to "work it" over her ears/head. Good to rotate the collar around so the softer nylon/fabric is going over tender ears instead of the hardware.)

 

 

I've been good about checking her collar to make sure it is tight enough, even though sometimes I feel like it is TOO tight, (especially when I hear her breathing louder as she pulls sometimes.)

Her collar does take some work to get on, and I tried to judge how I adjust it based on the advice in this article. I am going to order the WWW harness as well. She has an ID collar. Luckily she is still too afraid to go near the front door when we come in and out....we only use the back door to let her out - that is fenced in with secure gates thankfully. :) I try to be on my guard all the time....double checking doors and gates to make sure they are secure and locked, closing the full length window by the front door before we leave so she can't ever bust through the screen and escape - things like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Greyhound martingale collar article's photo on the left side is definitely better, but a Greyhound could still back out of that collar fitting because it would likely still be too loose if without any leash tension. If a Greyhound were to get loose, loose collars can go bouncing off over their narrow heads while they're running 30-45 mph. The easiest way to explain collar fitting is when the collar is on the dog's neck with zero tension from a leash, a person should not be able to pull the collar over the ears too easily. Person should need to "work" a bit to gently pull it over the ears and head.

 

It's common for any dog pulling on a collar (even a loose collar) to breathe more loudly. The best solution is teaching the dog how to heel (without pulling), but that takes time to teach. Your girl still needs more time to simply adjust to retired life, and bond with you before attempting too much extra training. One exception is teaching Grace to "come" to you (for high value food rewards) inside the house starting immediately. That could save her life later. Your new harness will help relieve pressure off her neck while on walks.

 

ETA: Grace's collar fitting in your signature photo looks fine. :)

Edited by 3greytjoys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had one voice in my head saying "she needs to gently be exposed," then my husband's tough love voice saying "you gotta throw her into it all -she's a dog she'll be FINE," to my mommy voice saying "maybe this is too much for this poor baby" all at once running through my head this past week....the entire spectrum of thoughts.

 

From today on, I am going to concentrate only on helping Grace get used to "her" house, "her" bed, "her" routine....that DOES make A LOT of sense!!!

I won't beat myself up over my mistakes either...thanks for helping me feel like it is ok to make mistakes. That one sentence in your post helped me more than you know!

 

Respectfully, your husband's tough love will work for some dogs but not others. It sounds like it's too much for your dog. Here is an example of what I mean. My Capri has an intrepid personality and actually rather likes novelty. There were a few times when she was new with us that she spooked at something strange on our walks. Skateboard, plastic blowing in the wind, and occasionally immovable objects like a red parked car, a street sign, and a traffic cone! But she never spooked at anything more than once. She's now my bomb-proof dog and I feel I can take her anywhere, and your husband's strategy would work fine for her. But dogs with some level of anxiety at strange places and things, it's better to go slowly.

 

Others have advised this, but I'd like to break it down more specifically. When your dog sees something scary on a walk, do this: immediately stop and stand quietly and confidently and let her just observe the scary thing from a distance. You mentioned you're already doing this, so that's great. While she's observing the scary thing, YOU observe HER. She's likely having mixed emotions - curiousity and fear. Allow her to step closer if she wants or just stand there. She may try to circle around the thing, and that's fine too. Let her do that the first few times - and once you're past it, stand there again and let her look behind her. It will help her confidence to see that it's not going to jump on her from behind. When she's ready, continue your walk. On future walks, each time you encounter the same scary thing (that's important - don't try to move forward with different scary things or she will continue to be insecure - only move forward with repeated exposures to the same thing) see if you can get one or two steps closer before you stop and observe it. Allow her to dictate how close you get.

 

This part is trickier because I don't have a clear way to tell you when a good time for this is. You'll have to know your dog and it's at the point where she trusts you a little. At this point you can start dictating that she gets closer to the scary thing. Move her just slightly too close for her comfort and stop and don't let her back away but don't push her closer either. Stand quietly and when she calms down, treat her. Move another step or two closer, when she becomes calm again, treat her. When you get close enough to the thing that she could touch it by stretching her neck, put a yummy treat on it. (If the scary thing is a child, have the child hold the treat out to her. Depending how spooky your dog is, you may consider having the child stand sideways or facing away from her.) Stand quietly and allow her as much time as she wants to build up the nerve to take the treat. When she does, praise and pet her and then move on as if nothing happened. After that, you'll be good as gold!

Sharon, Loki, Freyja, Capri (bridge angel and most beloved heart dog), Ajax (bridge angel) and Sweetie Pie (cat)

Visit Hound-Safe.com by Something Special Pet Supplies for muzzles and other dog safety products

:gh_bow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...