7 Staples In My Head

[GeorgeofNE]

_{I'm sorry you were hurt, but clearly you already decided what to do BEFORE you posted, so I'm not sure why everyone is trying to help.}

[Rustyroo]

We understand that you are scared and upset, but please don't write off greyhounds completely. They are wonderful dogs and Faye will find the right home. You just need to find the right one now for your home. Maybe one that is a bit older and has been bounced. That is how we got all three of ours. Bounces need homes too.

[inugrey]

No police were involved, this happened in my home with my dog.

Jeez people take a chill pill. She said her dog her home. The dog is going back to to the adoption group. I was bitten by my dog in my home and it went to the state as required for rabies purposes. They called 10 days out, I said I was fine. End of story. We don't need to freak out over this incident.

 

Back to OP. I have a dog who was returned for serious reactivity and she's bitten many people. I have a set up and lifestyle to handle it. Today she's my snuggle bug angel. I'm sure your group can find a home similar to mine who will live happily with Faye. I understand the need to take a break from dogs for a bit.

[a_daerr]

I'm very sorry you had to go through this experience. Very traumatic and sad anyway you look at it.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb by saying this, but I don't think a lot of adoption groups do a very good job at educating new adopters about behavior problems. They just say, "Here, read Greyhounds for Dummies" and you should be fine. It's easy for experienced grey owners to look at this situation and deduce that the dog snapped on at least three occasions before the bite. There was clearly some underlying problem with space/sleep aggression which required training before the behavior escalated out of control. But from the owner's point of view, I can see why she didn't think it was a big deal. As a first-timer, you see the well-adjusted, bombproof greys standing around at meet and greets, and you don't realize they're capable of having these kinds of issues. I'm not saying that greyhounds as a breed are less desirable. Every breed of dogs come with their own behavior challenges. But I find that there's very little done to educate adopters about some of the more commonalities among greyhounds like space aggression, sleep aggression, resource guarding, separation anxiety, statuing, etc. Although most groups are supportive after the fact, it doesn't really help in situations like this where the damage has already been done. The saddest part about this, is that I don't believe Faye is an "aggressive dog." If OP had been informed about space aggression before the adoption, she could've desensitization training after the very first snapping incident. Then, the entire situation could have likely been avoided. Just my $0.02.

 

Also, I just want to point out that the issue isn't simply the OP inability to, "let sleeping dogs lie." No one wants a dog you have to walk on eggshells around, and being approached on the bed is not an unreasonable thing to expect from your dog. For many dogs, it just requires training and consistency.

[kamsmom]

Here is my .02 cents worth. Not every dog needs "desensitization training". Some dogs, and some people, just like their space. I can respect that. I believe the original poster did the right thing. I'm very sorry it happened and I hope that she can get to a place that maybe one day she can enjoy having a dog again.

 

Inugrey is right. There is a home for Faye, it may take a bit but it is out there. Not every dog is right for every home.

[greysandmollie]

 

_{I'm sorry you were hurt, but clearly you already decided what to do BEFORE you posted, so I'm not sure why everyone is trying to help.}

Not sure how this is helpful or necessary?

[Guest k9soul]

I'm going to go out on a limb by saying this, but I don't think a lot of adoption groups do a very good job at educating new adopters about behavior problems. They just say, "Here, read Greyhounds for Dummies" and you should be fine. It's easy for experienced grey owners to look at this situation and deduce that the dog snapped on at least three occasions before the bite. There was clearly some underlying problem with space/sleep aggression which required training before the behavior escalated out of control. But from the owner's point of view, I can see why she didn't think it was a big deal. As a first-timer, you see the well-adjusted, bombproof greys standing around at meet and greets, and you don't realize they're capable of having these kinds of issues. I'm not saying that greyhounds as a breed are less desirable. Every breed of dogs come with their own behavior challenges. But I find that there's very little done to educate adopters about some of the more commonalities among greyhounds like space aggression, sleep aggression, resource guarding, separation anxiety, statuing, etc. Although most groups are supportive after the fact, it doesn't really help in situations like this where the damage has already been done. The saddest part about this, is that I don't believe Faye is an "aggressive dog." If OP had been informed about space aggression before the adoption, she could've desensitization training after the very first snapping incident. Then, the entire situation could have likely been avoided. Just my $0.02.

 

I agree with this 100%. And in a way I understand why the groups might be reluctant to bring up these things because they have this kennel full of dogs and I'm sure the last thing they want to do is spook away potential adopters, but I have had some startling moments with Rudy that had me questioning if we would work off and on at first. After about 5 months now, I rarely feel doubts and I am committed to working with him, but I definitely cannot see him fitting in a household with small children because he has a rather explosive startle response in certain situations. He has never bitten, but he will make you jump out of your skin! In general, he's a complete social butterfly, but I have had to accept that my visions of a dog to snuggle in bed with may not ever happen with Rudy. A lot of learning going on on both our parts. I feel fairly confident now about petting him if he is awake and no issues walking right over him if he's awake, but if he is asleep I click with my tongue or say his name first. Once the danger of being startled is taken away he seems to do fine.

 

Anyway, I am so very sorry for the OP. I can only imagine the heartbreak you are dealing with. I hope with time your heart will heal, and that perhaps another special dog, maybe even another greyhound, will enter your life again when it is time.

[a_daerr]

Here is my .02 cents worth. Not every dog needs "desensitization training". Some dogs, and some people, just like their space. I can respect that.

 

 

Realize that some people want to be able to approach/touch their dog when its lying down. Especially if young children involved, it becomes a safety issue.

 

To the OP, I understand that you are very upset over this whole thing. But if/when you ever decide to adopt again, here is my favorite article on this type of training. It's very easy to do. We started by throwing some balled up socks in Henry's direction when he was sleeping. If he didn't freak out, he got a treat. Gradually, we worked up to training while he was awake, increasing proximity and giving lots of praise and treats everytime. Now, I can do whatever I want to him when he's lying down. We play a game called "pig on a spit" (which he loves), where I flip him on his back by the feet and rub his belly. This training has also helped me on more than one occasion where Henry's had a seizure or wipe-out and I needed to physically lie him down.

[kamsmom]

a_daerr - I have children and have had dogs since they were born. Multiple dogs and not just greyhounds. I also grew up with parents that owned an obedience facility. I think when you are talking about kids and dogs you should speak from experience. Do you have children? It's not desensitization, it's called respect.

 

This is going way off topic now.

[Batmom]

People may WANT to approach their dog when s/he is lying down. It's still a bad and risky practice.

 

I agree that in some cases adoption groups could coach their adopters a bit better, but information overload can strike adopters as well as dogs. There's a lot to remember.

 

And for some dogs, desensitization doesn't apply. You can't, for example, desensitize a dog who's actually asleep when he startles -- that dog won't learn anything except that it's a really annoying environment and s/he can't get a good nap in. Then there is the dog who knows the difference between play/petting (OK) and "let me look at that corn or that scrape on your hock" (not OK, not even with a whole steak or a giant jar of peanutbutter). And the dog who does not really enjoy being bothered when s/he is on her/his bed .........

[Guest amyb]

When we first got Potter we would let him up on the couch since it was an older couch we were getting ready to get rid of. He would fall asleep and anytime one of

us would bump him, he would snarl and lunge at us and try to bite. After a few times, we stopped letting him on the couch. I did some reading (he is our first

experience with a greyhound) and found out that while they are at the track, they are never touched while they are sleeping. After finding that out, he was

not allowed on the bed or couch. We put his dog beds in out of the way corners of the room. We never went near him anytime he was sleeping. When we needed

for him to wake up, we would make some noise or sometimes toss a suffed toy over next to him to get him moving. For us, it only happened while he was in a

deep sleep (he slept like a rock on the couch, not so much on his dog beds), but is sounds like she is doing it when she is laying down. After the changes we made,

he never bit again. Maybe something like this would work with your hound?

[a_daerr]

I'm not going to get into the debate of "who knows more about dog training." I have a therapy dog who is often touched and handled while lying down (by children and adults). It's not a big deal. The bottom line is that if an owner wants to put in the time and training to be able to touch or approach their dog while lying down, it's their choice. I don't understand what's so wrong about that.

[kamsmom]

I'm not going to get into the debate of "who knows more about dog training." I have a therapy dog who is often touched and handled while lying down (by children and adults). It's not a big deal. The bottom line is that if an owner wants to put in the time and training to be able to touch or approach their dog while lying down, it's their choice. I don't understand what's so wrong about that.

 

Nothing, except you are assuming that ALL dogs can do this. Not all dogs or people are the same. What worked for you does not always work for everyone.

[Batmom]

 

Nothing, except you are assuming that ALL dogs can do this. Not all dogs or people are the same. What worked for you does not always work for everyone.

 

Exactly.

 

I wouldn't use most of the techniques in the linked article nor recommend to others.

[a_daerr]

 

Nothing, except you are assuming that ALL dogs can do this. Not all dogs or people are the same. What worked for you does not always work for everyone.

 

This is the last thing I'm going to say about it, as not to derail this topic any further. You're right. I don't think there is any dog that is "untrainable." When I see undesirable behaviors in my dogs, I don't just write it off and say, "Well, that's just the way he is." I train it out. My goal is to have dogs that are well-adjusted, responsible, members of society. I have very high expectations of my dogs, and that's okay.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't use most of the techniques in the linked article nor recommend to others.

 

This actually makes me mad. Whatever you do with your own dogs is your choice. But don't discount the work of someone who has put in years of time and practice to be accredited by nationally accepted training organizations. These methods are time-tested and have been used on MANY dogs with great success.

[Guest k9soul]

Not to get into the debating here, just to share my own experience. I've been working on desensitizing Rudy to being approached and/or touched while lying down. I've had success and found that it actually seems to have made him much more relaxed when he is lying down and people and/or other dogs walk around him. The other day my senior girl stumbled over him and bumped into his head and he jumped up but did not attack or bite or freak out. (She is 14-1/2 now, part deaf and unsteady on her feet when she first gets up after lying down awhile). Let me show you the result of the first time my senior girl stumbled over Rudy while he was lying down during his first month with me:

 

 

 

The days of this have passed, I believe with working up trust and getting him used to the idea that people and dogs near him while he is lying down are not a danger.

 

 

I have not done work where he's actually asleep as of yet, other than sometimes I've tossed a treat onto him while sleeping but he slept right through it and found it later after he awoke .

Edited June 20, 2013 by k9soul

[Guest jenniferk]

First, to the OP: I’m so sorry this happened. I know how upset you must be on so many different levels. It does sound like you did the best thing for your situation.

 

This post tugged at my heartstrings because it was similar to the experience I had. Django had space and sleep aggression (among other) issues, bit my husband twice (once drawing blood), snapped a few other times, and growled a bunch. Before we adopted I spent months researching everything I could on greyhounds and not once did I ever read that greyhounds could possibly have these issues. Even the Dummies book says that greyhounds rarely have aggression and mentions sleep aggression only in that they could “wake with a growl.” So I naturally thought I had a psychotic greyhound, and my husband and I were scared to touch him.

 

Everything came to a head when he broke his toe and we had to handle his splint daily, and he was in pain and wary of us touching him. I’d been in touch with my adoption group, and during this time they advised me to return him and adopt an easier dog. That was three months after we had him though, and I was very emotionally attached to him. So I posted to this forum. The majority of people said to return him OR to keep him and never approach him when he’s lying down. I didn’t want a dog that I could only pet when he’s standing. I also didn’t want to return him because I was too much in love with him. I worked with my adoption group, worked in my home with a positive-reinforcement-only trainer on desensitization, took obedience classes, and most of all gave him time and love. The desensitization training we did was both when he was fast asleep (I have cats and worried that the cats may sniff him and startle him when asleep) and when he was lying down in general and on his bed in particular. The desensitization training for when he was asleep was exactly the article that a_daerr linked to—literally, the trainer had printed it from the internet after doing some consultation with other trainers on this issue.

 

It’s been one year since we adopted him, and he’s a different dog. He’s wonderful and we love him, and he’s had no space or sleep aggression issues for about six months. My husband and I pet him every day when he’s lying down and when he’s on his bed, and he loves it! He paws at us when we stop or rolls over onto his belly so he can get belly rubs. I know every dog is different, but my dog—who had dog such severe sleep aggression that he bit and drew blood—was able to be desensitized. I’ve accidentally bumped into him when he’s sleeping, and he looks at me like, “Where’s my treat?” because I used steak for that training. The desensitization training for petting him while lying down opened him up to how much he really enjoys being petted while he’s on his bed. In fact, now he usually only wants to be petted when he’s on his bed and relaxing. If we hadn’t done that training, he would never have known how much he liked pets and belly rubs on his bed.

 

I don’t want this to seem like I’m saying the OP should have kept him and worked with him—it’s a personal decision involving lots of factors, and I personally think she made the right choice. But Django is a real life case study that proves desensitization can not only resolve the issues, but also enrich the dog’s life.

[kamsmom]

I read the article. I would never want any dog "trained" by some of those methods in my house or around my kids. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I do agree with you a_daerr on one thing is that every one should do some type of training. My step dad had a motto, "If you don't train em, you can't blame em".

 

My biggest point and the thing you are adament on dismissing is that not every dog can or should be "trained out of it". That is where I think accidents happen.

 

I'm glad that it worked with you and Henry and very happy that he is a therapy dog and bringing happiness to all. But, to say every dog can do that is a misrepresentation. I have a gorgeous girl at home and she is sweet as candy, but in a public situation and with too much stimulation she is unpredictable. It would be wrong of me to force her into a situation that she has clearly shown she does not like.

 

Just as children from the same family can be very different so can dogs. I have a daughter that is deathly scared of roller coasters, should I "train it out of her"?

[Batmom]

 

This actually makes me mad. Whatever you do with your own dogs is your choice. But don't discount the work of someone who has put in years of time and practice to be accredited by nationally accepted training organizations. These methods are time-tested and have been used on MANY dogs with great success.

 

How many dogs have you personally trained using all of the techniques in the article, and then lived with to see how that played out over time?

 

That someone is accredited by an organization, on TV, recommended by others, etc. doesn't mean they're a good trainer in general or a good trainer for this particular instance. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Not everyone who graduated from MIT is a genius, right?

 

I didn't say anything about the article other than that I wouldn't use most of the techniques and wouldn't recommend them. I said that because it's important for people -- particularly those exploring or on the fence about things -- to realize that there is more than one point of view on the topic. There are lots of techniques, tools, etc. that I wouldn't use and wouldn't recommend. You gave your opinion. I gave mine. It's that simple.

[Guest Scarter55]

In my experience with animals, and limited experience with Greys specifically, it is very clear that all animals are different, just as all people are.

It is very likely that she gave you warning signs that you didn't recognize, as we humans are very poor at picking up on anything but the most obvious signs. But that isn't neccessarily an excuse. If you didn't pick it up, than others might not pick it up. Personally, I wouldn't want a dog that I was nervous with everytime someone came over.

 

On that note, animals also can pick up fear from us. We have a cat who is a little agressive. He has actually sent me to urgent care once when I tried to pick him up when he was cornered and freaked out. Retrospectively, very dumb; but again, what if someone else had done that? My father-in-law is scared of this cat, and everytime he comes over, the cat is more aggressive towards him, clearly because he can sense that fear. Fear makes animal uncomfortable. This is a 10 lb cat who is a litte unpredictable, not a 60-70 lb dog. If you can't live with her without being afraid of her, I would recommend you consider giving her up. However, I would also recommend that you consider another dog, even if it isn't a grey. Again, all dogs are different.

 

This topic has gotten a little heated, so just want to emphasize that these are just my opinions, nothing more.

[Guest iconsmum]

We're returning her on Saturday morning, and I've been in contact with the people who originally fostered her and they expressed interest in fostering her again. It would go a long way in making Fay more comfortable and easing my heartache about returning her.

 

 

 

I don't agree that her bite inhibition is ok - seems she has a low bite threshold as well as not bite inhibited enough for your household - I'd

let her go without a second thought. You're not the right owner - doesn't matter at all. There s someone somewhere experienced enough to take her. Where was your foster group with this dog, I wonder; and why didn't someone have the good sense not to place her with you. I'd want some answers from them and no kidding.

[Dawnnziggy]

When we got our first grey, Dawn, we had a lot to learn. She did NOT like to be messed with when she was on her bed. She would growl and show me her "big teef." This is exactly the same thing she did to other dogs. She wasn't being mean, she was just telling me how she felt about being bothered on her bed. She came to us after being fostered for only 7 days. She was scared of everything. BUT, I listened to her and eventually she settled into our household. We had a young DS at the time and taught him to stay away from her when she was on her bed. We adopted another hound one year later. He taught her how to be a pet. It took about 2 months after Ziggy came in for her to figure out how to be a pet. She played with him but he wasn't so sure he liked that. She ran into him once and he had a bruise the size of a baseball glove on his side. He never ran with her in the house after that. She was a great dog! I am so glad that we worked with her because I miss her every single, solitary day!

 

I hope that you can let go of the hurt and let another hound grace your life. They are awesome pets with maybe a couple of quirks!

[NeylasMom]

Where was your foster group with this dog, I wonder; and why didn't someone have the good sense not to place her with you. I'd want some answers from them and no kidding.

There's a very good chance the dog didn't display these behaviors in her foster home. Experienced foster parents are often more inclined to give new dogs space while they adjust. Or it's possible that the stress of being moved to a new home brought out the behaviors.

[Batmom]

Some fosters will push the dog a bit in order to check out those sorts of things, and some won't. Depends on the purpose of the foster period, how long the dog was there, and experience as NeylasMom mentioned.

 

Also, some dogs are very specific about these things. You may be able to lean over the dog and wave your arms in one way, dog is fine. Use a slightly different angle of approach, and dog freaks. Or time of day, how tired or stimulated the dog happens to be at that moment, etc. So it could even be that the foster home *did* check out some of these things but didn't quite arrive at the same button, so to speak.

 

Most of the dogs I've known fairly well -- my own and others' -- I'm confident I could make snap without doing anything abusive or outre. I've only had/known a few that I was pretty sure I couldn't.

[robinw]

I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't think I would want to live with a dog who I could not trust. You did the right thing, especially if you gave toddlers around. Both the people and the dog have to be able to trust each other.

Edited June 20, 2013 by robinw