No Judgments... Question About Off-Leash Hiking

[KickReturn]

 

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed at some of the responses... Tiffany (WhiteWave) posts pics all the time of her dogs off-leash on hikes, and many of you comment on how happy they look, how much fun they have. How is that scenario any different than mine? I don't really understand why or how this turned into a personal attack. Nevertheless, I respect everyone's opinion. I'm a little hurt though. I really didn't expect six pages of flaming when for over three years, I've shown only the utmost love, commitment, and responsibility to my dogs on this forum.

 

 

 

Yes this bothered me also. I asked WhiteWave how she supervises her dogs in that situation, I didn't get a reply. Good recall? Do they all just follow one leader who follows WhiteWave? And what about Joey? - that's a young Greyhound. An extra challenge I assume? That's quite a varied pack of dogs. No small feat for one person to supervise in some serious wilderness. Not to mention the natural hazards in the Florida wilderness can be a fair bit more serious than most other areas. Tell us please - how do you do it? What are your tricks/techniques?

 

And a_daerr, any Greyhound on this forum would be lucky to have you as their owner.

Edited June 12, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest Clawsandpaws]

 

Yes, only moral suasion could be used to get a resistant owner to return a improperly cared for dog. But of course a legal status of the agreement is not the best way to ensure the wellbeing of Greyhounds. Knowledge such as that contained in this thread and making sure only the right people end up with them in the first place is the key.

I know of groups that have taken dog backs without the owners "permission" due to a violation of contract (not leash laws). Reality is, if the group can get their hands on the dog, it would be extremely difficult for you to get your dog back. Many groups have a protocol for a "greyhound witness protection program" they have removed dogs from yards (owners usually sign a contract to not keep dog as an outside pet and violate the agreement) and sent them away. Even with NGA paperwork, if it dates after your signed adoption agreement, if you brought it to small claims court/civil court, I doubt the judge would rule in your favor. With all that being said, and as I said before, I was only replying to those who were questioning the legality of the contract, not trying to sway a_daerr's opinion either way. I highly doubt a group would take a dog back due to a leash clause, if someone found out and cared enough, they may give you a stern talking to, but even that probably wouldn't happen in OP's case as we all know she is an experienced and loving pet owner, and any decision she makes for her dogs would be well thought out, practiced, and done to the best of her ability.

[KickReturn]

Reality is, if the group can get their hands on the dog, it would be extremely difficult for you to get your dog back. Many groups have a protocol for a "greyhound witness protection program" they have removed dogs from yards (owners usually sign a contract to not keep dog as an outside pet and violate the agreement) and sent them away.

 

Cool, I like this. Problem is the groups are committing criminal tresspass. Not that I care - doing best for the dogs makes it worth the limited risk of prosecution.

[Guest Clawsandpaws]

 

Cool, I like this. Problem is the groups are committing criminal tresspass. Not that I care - doing best for the dogs makes it worth the limited risk of prosecution.

agreed. The point was, and is, that violating the adoption contract should be the least of OP's worries when regarding her dog being off leash. My only issue with off leash is ensuring it is a relatively secure area, such as a trail or park. I was born and raised in Miami, Florida, so it is difficult for me to imagine such a place! If Dudley wasn't such a ...well, a dud, we would probably try to do something similar if I could find a place to do it.

 

I think Jennifer from neversaynever greyhounds has great insight (I have been spamming her stuff all over the internet lately, so Jennifer, if you read this, THANK YOU!) Kickreturn, if you haven't come across her blog yet, you should read some! She has excellent training techniques and realistic tips/advice. Everything I have worked on with my dog has had the foundation from her site.

 

 

http://neversaynevergreyhounds.blogspot.com/2010/04/off-leash.html

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I've also used some of Jennifer's techniques and they've worked well. That was a very good article about greyhounds off-leash, and I'm in total agreement with her.

[KickReturn]

agreed. The point was, and is, that violating the adoption contract should be the least of OP's worries when regarding her dog being off leash. My only issue with off leash is ensuring it is a relatively secure area, such as a trail or park. I was born and raised in Miami, Florida, so it is difficult for me to imagine such a place! If Dudley wasn't such a ...well, a dud, we would probably try to do something similar if I could find a place to do it.

 

I think Jennifer from neversaynever greyhounds has great insight (I have been spamming her stuff all over the internet lately, so Jennifer, if you read this, THANK YOU!) Kickreturn, if you haven't come across her blog yet, you should read some! She has excellent training techniques and realistic tips/advice. Everything I have worked on with my dog has had the foundation from her site.

 

 

http://neversaynevergreyhounds.blogspot.com/2010/04/off-leash.html

 

I have read this article. I stumbled upon Jennifer's blog while doing research before Hester's arrival. Reinforces the point that you have to be more interesting to your dog than environmental distractions. But when you're out on the trail with your dog you should expect them to stray to sniff, perhaps lag behind a bit and then trot ahead. If your dog maintains a perfect heel than you might as well put on a leash.

 

To me the key is: does you dog stop and look back for you before he gets out of sight, wait for you to catch up before proceeding? If they lag behind do they break into a fast trot before you get out of sight? Anyone can teach recall to most dogs, but I don't think that's adequate, which brings up Jennifer's other point that a lot depends on the dog - which was the point I made at the beginning of this thread and why I post the videos on page 4 of my obsessed but very happy doggy. Last night we passed 5 rabbits and he didn't lift up his head.

 

My only regret is that the rabbits have been removed from our local university. There used to be literally hundreds to be seen on the lawns. I would have loved to test Hester's ability to focus on me as opposed to hundreds of fleeing rabbits. Anyone ever put their Grey in a situation like below? My guess is Hester could handle it.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2013 by KickReturn

[a_daerr]

http://neversaynevergreyhounds.blogspot.com/2010/04/off-leash.html

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

My dogs would have a field day killing all the rabbits. They love fresh rabbit in the back yard...

[krissy]

Jesus, those are pet rabbits. Someone obviously let some intact domestic pet rabbits loose. I'm surprised they did so well in the "wild". I certainly hope they were "removed" to good homes and not simply killed.

[GeorgeofNE]

Jesus, those are pet rabbits. Someone obviously let some intact domestic pet rabbits loose. I'm surprised they did so well in the "wild". I certainly hope they were "removed" to good homes and not simply killed.

 

It looks photoshopped to me.

 

I can't imagine any university anywhere allowing a herd (flock?) of rabbits hanging around the lawn. They seem to be extremely large too, which makes me think they aren't actually there.

[KickReturn]

 

It looks photoshopped to me.

 

I can't imagine any university anywhere allowing a herd (flock?) of rabbits hanging around the lawn. They seem to be extremely large too, which makes me think they aren't actually there.

 

Nope, those rabbits were there and yes some of them were massive. And those photos don't give any real sense of the true magnitude of the problem. There may have been thousands of rabbits. I have seen some areas where you actually saw more rabbit than grass. Every spring hundreds of tiny bunnies would join the crowd. The roads in the University grounds were often litered with rabbit road kill. You would have to drive carefully to avoid them. In December 2011, during the Xmas break, a contractor was hired and the rabbits removed. It was claimed that the removal was humane (this community is extremely sensitive to animal welfare) but suspicions remain. How could every rabbit be removed safely? Yesterday I saw a wild rabbit on the property - the first rabbit I have seen since the "removal", which is quite extraordinary considering this town has rabbits on every patch of grass. Nonetheless the students and animal welfare groups, (that protested the removal) have been assured that the rabbits were taken safely and are enjoying the remainder of the lives on a "farm in the country".

 

Dang it would have been something to see a high prey Grey thrown into that mix. Might very well have lost its mind.

Edited June 14, 2013 by KickReturn

[brianamac]

 

It looks photoshopped to me.

 

I can't imagine any university anywhere allowing a herd (flock?) of rabbits hanging around the lawn. They seem to be extremely large too, which makes me think they aren't actually there.

 

Offtopic, but- the UVic bunnies have been around as long as I can remember. It was always a favorite family activity to go see the hundreds of bunnies hanging around campus.

The university allowed it for many years.

Edited June 14, 2013 by brianamac

[greytpups]

I was going to say never mind My statement was off topic and I don't want to take away from Alicia's original question.

Edited June 14, 2013 by greytpups

[a_daerr]

Go ahead, Jan! I'm enjoying the bunny discussion. It's a bit of comic relief.

[Guest WhiteWave]

 

Yes this bothered me also. I asked WhiteWave how she supervises her dogs in that situation, I didn't get a reply. Good recall? Do they all just follow one leader who follows WhiteWave? And what about Joey? - that's a young Greyhound. An extra challenge I assume? That's quite a varied pack of dogs. No small feat for one person to supervise in some serious wilderness. Not to mention the natural hazards in the Florida wilderness can be a fair bit more serious than most other areas. Tell us please - how do you do it? What are your tricks/techniques?

 

And a_daerr, any Greyhound on this forum would be lucky to have you as their owner.

I don't really see it is any of your business how I supervise my dogs, but I'm pretty sure my pictures show it.

 

 

I have no tricks or techniques. My dogs are dogs and I am their owner. They obey me to a certain point, but they are still dogs with their own minds. They love hiking, they love running, splashing and chasing critters and even occasionally killing them. If they choose to not obey me, they get leashed, usually a little while on leash and they remember to listen a little better when let go again. Dogs like Casper who chooses to do what he wants, stays leashed most of the time now. Not b/c he doesn't come back b/c if he can't find me he will go back and sit at the car, but b/c his back end is weak and if runs too much his leg can give out and I can not carry him so I leash to limit his activity. My pack has a good bond and they run together. Ronon usually stays up my butt. He is a Mama's boy and would follow me to the ends of the earth if something upsets/scares him, he comes to me to save him. Joey runs ahead with Mira and Luna and zooms back and jumps on me. Rocky and Jack trail along behind me with Ronon. If I stop and sit down, they all come running back and lay down around me.

 

They do this at home too. Follow me around. When mowing the grass today, Ronon right on my heels up and down the yard and the others all close by watching. Go to the bathroom there they come. They want to be with me all the time and go wherever I go.

 

Young Greyhounds are even easier. Riddick and Joey were both super easy. They ran with the pack and learned the trail and how we do things. We were at the beach the other day and Joey was clear on the other end playing with this dog and I yelled time to go Joey and he turned and came running as fast he could passing other dogs and people until he got to me.

[NeylasMom]

Young Greyhounds are even easier. Riddick and Joey were both super easy. They ran with the pack and learned the trail and how we do things. We were at the beach the other day and Joey was clear on the other end playing with this dog and I yelled time to go Joey and he turned and came running as fast he could passing other dogs and people until he got to me.

I'll probably regret this, was really trying to stick to the OP's questions and not the general debate about off leading , but your comments struck a chord with me. There really is this very cool harmony between us and our dogs that can be achieved when off leading is taught properly (and by that, all I really mean without getting all training technical is tons of positive reinforcement and no ruining of cues). I'm working a lot with Skye on her off leash training and have been for a while (perhaps I can share this without getting flamed since Skye has no sighthound in her ). The other day, we were in circumstances where I felt comfortable letting her off leash on a hike and it truly was a thing of beauty. She exhausted herself exploring. She was wearing a bell so I could hear her and I was comfortable with her going off of the trail as long as I could still hear her bear bell jingling away (she's small, only 30ish lbs so I can't always see her easily when she runs into the foliage). If she sounded like she was getting too far, I gave her recall cue and she came bounding back for treats. She was also reinforced (with steak & cat treats) every single time she checked in, which was often. As we progressed, I started giving more subtle verbal cues - "stay close" or "little too far" and she would immediately adjust. I also use "this way" a lot when a trail splits so if she was ahead and started going the other way she would know to adjust to the other route where we would soon be behind her. I can't sufficiently put into words how gratifying it is to get to see your dog being 100% a dog and having this cooperative relationship. I am not saying this to try to convince anyone to off lead their dog. And I am aware that there is always a risk with deciding to off lead your dog, as there is with many things we do with our dogs. I just see the comments about how a dog's life isn't any more fulfilled when they're allowed to be off lead and not only do I disagree, but I also think my life would be less fulfilled.

[KickReturn]

Jesus, those are pet rabbits. Someone obviously let some intact domestic pet rabbits loose. I'm surprised they did so well in the "wild". I certainly hope they were "removed" to good homes and not simply killed.

 

Everything does well in the wild here. There is so much to eat. Everything just grows like crazy. The joke here is if you stick a pencil in the ground it will sprout.

[KickReturn]

I don't really see it is any of your business how I supervise my dogs, but I'm pretty sure my pictures show it.

 

I have no tricks or techniques. My dogs are dogs and I am their owner.

 

None of my business I guess. I just thought on a forum where caring for Greyhounds is discussed that it would be reasonable to ask how you manage a pack off leash out in the wilderness.

 

And no your pictures don't really give any indication of any background work you do, or the peculiar character of individual dogs to make it possible. And yet despite all this being "none of my business" you provide in exquisite detail exactly what I was curious about. So thanks.

Edited June 15, 2013 by KickReturn

[Yamaha_gurl]

I'll probably regret this, was really trying to stick to the OP's questions and not the general debate about off leading , but your comments struck a chord with me. There really is this very cool harmony between us and our dogs that can be achieved when off leading is taught properly (and by that, all I really mean without getting all training technical is tons of positive reinforcement and no ruining of cues). I'm working a lot with Skye on her off leash training and have been for a while (perhaps I can share this without getting flamed since Skye has no sighthound in her ). The other day, we were in circumstances where I felt comfortable letting her off leash on a hike and it truly was a thing of beauty. She exhausted herself exploring. She was wearing a bell so I could hear her and I was comfortable with her going off of the trail as long as I could still hear her bear bell jingling away (she's small, only 30ish lbs so I can't always see her easily when she runs into the foliage). If she sounded like she was getting too far, I gave her recall cue and she came bounding back for treats. She was also reinforced (with steak & cat treats) every single time she checked in, which was often. As we progressed, I started giving more subtle verbal cues - "stay close" or "little too far" and she would immediately adjust. I also use "this way" a lot when a trail splits so if she was ahead and started going the other way she would know to adjust to the other route where we would soon be behind her. I can't sufficiently put into words how gratifying it is to get to see your dog being 100% a dog and having this cooperative relationship. I am not saying this to try to convince anyone to off lead their dog. And I am aware that there is always a risk with deciding to off lead your dog, as there is with many things we do with our dogs. I just see the comments about how a dog's life isn't any more fulfilled when they're allowed to be off lead and not only do I disagree, but I also think my life would be less fulfilled.

 

I agree, big time! My Bella is happiest off leash running at the beach, no question about it.

[KickReturn]

In addition to dozens of other off leash dogs that we encounter on every walk, we have to deal with horses. Does anybody have any advice as far as horses go? Proper etiquette for passing a horse, etc. As soon as I hear hoofs I call Hester and leash him. This is the one thing that really scares me. Hester thinks the horses are just big dogs that need to have their bums sniffed. Not good. He hasn't tried since I gave the UH UH last year but he is still curious. I'd like to build on his aversion. Some of the paths are so narrow we literally have to brush by the horses.

[krissy]

Everything does well in the wild here. There is so much to eat. Everything just grows like crazy. The joke here is if you stick a pencil in the ground it will sprout.

I was thinking more of The Thousand (Watership Down reference for any readers in the audience). All the world is an enemy to a rabbit. Domestic bunnies are easy pickings for predators. They don't have the same natural instincts or fear. Some have handicaps such as being lop eared. They're not endowed with the same quickness and agility of their wild counterparts. They were just never meant to be placed in the sights of a predator.

 

As a rabbit owner who has a rescue that was found loose in the "wild" it always makes me sad to see obviously domestic bunnies living in the wild. I take my buns outside for playtime. But that's very different.

[a_daerr]

None of my business I guess. I just thought on a forum where caring for Greyhounds is discussed that it would be reasonable to ask...

I knew what you were asking. Depending on how she read it, it may have seemed like you were being rhetorical. Like, 'How on earth is she able to manage her dogs off leash?' But I got that you were just legitimately curious and looking for possible training techniques. Sometimes things don't translate as well over a computer screen.

[KickReturn]

I was thinking more of The Thousand (Watership Down reference for any readers in the audience). All the world is an enemy to a rabbit. Domestic bunnies are easy pickings for predators. They don't have the same natural instincts or fear. Some have handicaps such as being lop eared. They're not endowed with the same quickness and agility of their wild counterparts. They were just never meant to be placed in the sights of a predator.

 

As a rabbit owner who has a rescue that was found loose in the "wild" it always makes me sad to see obviously domestic bunnies living in the wild. I take my buns outside for playtime. But that's very different.

 

To make it even more rediculous we have a substantial population of eagles, falcons, and hawks. The Bald Eagles hang out mostly on the beaches, but the falcons and hawks are around town. I could swear I have seen a few hanging around the university that were so obese they could hardly get off the ground. This place is wild kingdom. Just got back from our one hour before bed walk with Hester and we saw 7 deer, 4 rabbits, and cranky Bard Owl, all in about a 2 kilometre radius of my house.

[Batmom]

In addition to dozens of other off leash dogs that we encounter on every walk, we have to deal with horses. Does anybody have any advice as far as horses go? Proper etiquette for passing a horse, etc. As soon as I hear hoofs I call Hester and leash him. This is the one thing that really scares me. Hester thinks the horses are just big dogs that need to have their bums sniffed. Not good. He hasn't tried since I gave the UH UH last year but he is still curious. I'd like to build on his aversion. Some of the paths are so narrow we literally have to brush by the horses.

 

I would always leash him in this situation -- dangerous not only for him but for the horses and riders as well, if he or the horse should become frightened, persnickety, etc. I would combine leashing with an instruction such as "horses - keep close" as in absolutely glued to your leg, so that he knows what to do if you're out and about and get surprised by horses over the top of a hill etc.

[NeylasMom]

Agree with Batmom re:horses. When we encounter them, we get completely off of the trail and let them pass. Sometimes that means trekking into some thick underbrush, etc. but Neyla used to think they were prey and would get super amped up so we didn't have a choice. Zuri doesn't care about them, not sure what the girls would do, but I won't risk it - not all horses are comfortable around dogs and one could spook.