No Judgments... Question About Off-Leash Hiking

[MaryJane]

 

No, it is judgemental to speak down to someone or in such a way as to intentionally make them feel bad... in a way that is not constructive.

 

"I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this, but doesn't one of your dogs have seizures? Are his seizures well controlled on his medication right now? Because something you maybe didn't think of that I think is worth mentioning is that..." and into the reasons about the seizures. Does that not sound a lot less judgemental? Because it does to me. I might feel bad thinking "Oh my gosh, how could I have forgotten about that!" but I'm not going to feel like the dirt under your shoe. That's the difference between stating a fact/opinion and being judgemental.

 

And that is all I have to say about any of this. It was fun until the judging started. I'm not interested in the rest of this conversation. It is going nowhere good except to get locked.

 

 

 

If I was thinking about doing something that might endanger my dog and I posted it on this forum (or any forum) and it looked like I didn't fully think it out -- then don't sugarcoat it, tell it like it is and let me know anything that I might have overlooked that could hurt my dog. My feelings don't come into consideration when we are talking about the well-being of my dog.

[Guest kkaiser104]

People just need to get over it and realize that we all take responsibility for OUR dogs. A lot of people on this forum choose not to go to dog parks. I take Teddi all of the time and because of the way people act about dog parks I don't talk about it on this forum. A lot of people feed TOTW, and while I think it isn't necessary, I keep my mouth shut. Why? Because no one asked me if I thought it was necessary. Alicia asked how to know if Henry was ready. She didn't ask "what do you think of me letting my dogs off leash?" She isn't some dumb kid who deserves to be treated like one. She's an adult and isn't brand new to greyhounds.

 

I know I'll get flamed by those of you who think I'm just a dumb kid and irresponsible and someone who hasn't raised/bred/trained/owned greyhounds for 30 years. BUT, there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with your opinions, didn't sign a leash clause, and want to let their dogs act like dogs. Hijacking Alicia's thread and being rude to everyone who disagrees with your opinions isn't necessary.

[Hubcitypam]

Harley came from his trainer - no adoption group involved. I used to take him out to my friends acreage and let him run. Directions were something like "...take Farm to Market Rd. 477 until you pass the big windmill on the right just past the 4 way stop sign, then turn left off the paved road". He loved it.

 

That said, I have never trusted any of the other 4 off lead . Buddy would probably be a good candidate but there isn't anywhere to run around here and I wouldn't let a grey off lead in town.

[KickReturn]

 

 

 

If I was thinking about doing something that might endanger my dog and I posted it on this forum (or any forum) and it looked like I didn't fully think it out -- then don't sugarcoat it, tell it like it is and let me know anything that I might have overlooked that could hurt my dog. My feelings don't come into consideration when we are talking about the well-being of my dog.

 

And that's why this thread is a good one. We need to hear it all, the good and the bad. And as above, our hurt feelings shouldn't even register when we are talking about the physical well being of a living creature.

 

And so the readers here know, I do not have Hester off leash when he is exposed to traffic. The videos I posted are the exception used to show his extreme behaviour. The first video is in a sports field. In the particular area shown in the second video it is not possible for a vehicle to travel any faster than a crawl (hairpin turn, top of a 20% hill with two huge speed bumps). And the stretch of road in the recall segment has no traffic at the particular time of day. The majority of our walks on on trails, beaches, in parks, etc.

 

Once Hester did get lost but it was in our house. He couldn't find me and he cried. I was in a laundry room in a different section of the house. I called to him but he couldn't figure out I was up one level (split level house). He was oh so sweet in his sadness. When he figured it out we had a happy reunion on the stairs.

[3greytjoys]

Common dog injuries noted in my previous post (page two of this thread) are from 50+ years of actual dog experience, not "what if" thoughts. I've known of dogs who experienced each of those situations in hiking environments. Also, our region happens to be home to mountain lions, and other predators that attack dogs. Off leashing is against the law for dogs' own safety (and wildlife, humans, and others' pets). I believe it's more dangerous for retired racing Greyhounds to be loose on hikes than other breeds because they can run 45 mph catching a leg in a wild animal's hole, etc. It's a challenge to get our thin-skinned hounds to stop bleeding from a small nick or ripped toenail at home, not to mention a serious puncture or large tear from a fallen tree while hiking. Heck, Greys try to walk on backyard pool surfaces as if it were solid ground.

Dogs think like 2-3 year old children, if they're loose off-trail how can an owner stop them from grabbing a poisonous snake as if it were a play toy? (Been there with a large rattlesnake, and was able to stop the dog (different breed) only because I saw snake immediately on open trail path.) Very common for dogs (including Greyhounds) to die from poisonous snake bites. Especially dangerous if a large-hearted athlete like a Greyhound is bitten. Difficult (if not impossible) to slow their blood pressure during exercise to slow venom absorbtion. We have a thousand times more control when dog is leashed. If one attempts to keep a loose dog mostly near or on trail anyway, why not leash(?)...

Greyhound farms have "fenced" runs/kennels. Professional race tracks are "fenced". If racing Greyhounds (sighthounds) were so trustworthy, professionals wouldn't need fences for them. Retired racing Greyhounds are independent thinkers that do not typically respond to human commands the same way other "human focused" working breeds respond to humans. I know a few GH exceptions with extensive training, no one can change instinct. There are important reasons behind each Greyhound adoption contract clause, each is intended to protect the animal. Adoption groups can legally reclaim Greyhounds when deemed necessary. It happens more than one might think.

Most respectfully, my grave concern is about over-glorification of off-leashing a rare handful of hounds on a large public forum. Many first-time Greyhound adopters think Greyhounds are just like other dogs. They are not. Newbies may not understand the years of extensive recall training and obedience work a few individual owners on this forum do with their own single hound or two. There are thousands of readers on GT who did sign a legally binding contract. Seems a disservice to sway them otherwise, especially when their Greyhound's life could be at stake.

Excellent post, MaryJane. Thank you for posting it.

Edited to delete a clause.

Edited June 8, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[AnneGTS]

Well said, Katelyn.

[vjgrey]

 

Most respectfully, my grave concern is about over-glorification of off-leashing a rare handful of hounds on a large public forum. Many first-time Greyhound adopters think Greyhounds are just like other dogs. They are not. Newbies may not understand the years of extensive recall training and obedience work a few individual owners on this forum do with their own single hound or two. There are thousands of readers on GT who did sign a legally binding contract. Seems a disservice to sway them otherwise, especially when their Greyhound's life could be at stake. It would be great to see some off-leashers helping others find their lost Greyhounds in Greyhound Amber Alert; surprising how much can be done from afar with Google maps, phone/fax/email businesses.

Excellent post, MaryJane. Thank you for posting it.

 

 

Particularly true when the over-glorification and sway is coming from a vet.

[Hubcitypam]

 

Greyhound farms have "fenced" runs/kennels. Professional race tracks are "fenced". If racing Greyhounds (sighthounds) were so trustworthy, professionals wouldn't need fences for them. Retired racing Greyhounds are independent thinkers that do not typically respond to human commands the same way other "human focused" working breeds respond to humans. I know a few GH exceptions with extensive training, no one can change instinct. There are important reasons behind each Greyhound adoption contract clause, each is intended to protect the animal. Adoption groups can legally reclaim Greyhounds when deemed necessary. It happens more than one might think.

Don't buy that theory. Daycares are fenced, apartment complexes are fenced. Can you imagine the confusion and oops litters if a farm with 300+ greyhounds had no fences? Plus how would you keep track of which litter had been fed, received shots, etc.?

 

The farm Molotov was from has different large fenced paddocks that they rotate the pups through. One is flat, one is hilly (they play king of the hill) and one is very densely treed. If someone posted here about letting their young greys run in a back yard with lots of trees everyone would say "NO WAY".

 

I'd certainly be interested in what groups reclaim lots of dogs and how they do it...pro bono legal help? Threats? It's been written over and over that adoption agreements aren't worth the paper they are written on. I had a chat with the NGA and they told me once you have returned the blue slip and it is registered as yours then you are the dogs legal owner. There was confusion somewhere about needing the yellow slip but they said it was not necessary.

[Yamaha_gurl]

People just need to get over it and realize that we all take responsibility for OUR dogs. A lot of people on this forum choose not to go to dog parks. I take Teddi all of the time and because of the way people act about dog parks I don't talk about it on this forum. A lot of people feed TOTW, and while I think it isn't necessary, I keep my mouth shut. Why? Because no one asked me if I thought it was necessary. Alicia asked how to know if Henry was ready. She didn't ask "what do you think of me letting my dogs off leash?" She isn't some dumb kid who deserves to be treated like one. She's an adult and isn't brand new to greyhounds.

 

I know I'll get flamed by those of you who think I'm just a dumb kid and irresponsible and someone who hasn't raised/bred/trained/owned greyhounds for 30 years. BUT, there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with your opinions, didn't sign a leash clause, and want to let their dogs act like dogs. Hijacking Alicia's thread and being rude to everyone who disagrees with your opinions isn't necessary.

+1! Awesome post! Pssst, Bella goes to the dog park too! Gasp!

[Guest kkaiser104]

+1! Awesome post! Pssst, Bella goes to the dog park too! Gasp!

 

Clearly we're terrible dog owners!!!

[Hubcitypam]

I know I'll get flamed by those of you who think I'm just a dumb kid and irresponsible and someone who hasn't raised/bred/trained/owned greyhounds for 30 years

The woman I most respect in the greyhound world has bred greyhounds for well over 40 years. She has always lure coursed her dogs.

[KickReturn]

 

Common dog injuries noted in my previous post (page two of this thread) are from 50+ years of actual dog experience, not "what if" thoughts. I've known of dogs who experienced each of those situations in hiking environments. Also, our region happens to be home to mountain lions, and other predators that attack dogs. Off leashing is against the law for dogs' own safety (and wildlife, humans, and others' pets). I believe it's more dangerous for retired racing Greyhounds to be loose on hikes than other breeds because they can run 45 mph catching a leg in a wild animal's hole, etc. It's a challenge to get our thin-skinned hounds to stop bleeding from a small nick or ripped toenail at home, not to mention a serious puncture or large tear from a fallen tree while hiking. Heck, Greys try to walk on backyard pool surfaces as if it were solid ground.

Dogs think like 2-3 year old children, if they're loose off-trail how can an owner stop them from grabbing a poisonous snake as if it were a play toy? (Been there with a large rattlesnake, and was able to stop the dog (different breed) only because I saw snake immediately on open trail path.) Very common for dogs (including Greyhounds) to die from poisonous snake bites. Especially dangerous if a large-hearted athlete like a Greyhound is bitten. Difficult (if not impossible) to slow their blood pressure during exercise to slow venom absorbtion. We have a thousand times more control when dog is leashed. If one attempts to keep a loose dog mostly near or on trail anyway, why not leash(?)...

Greyhound farms have "fenced" runs/kennels. Professional race tracks are "fenced". If racing Greyhounds (sighthounds) were so trustworthy, professionals wouldn't need fences for them. Retired racing Greyhounds are independent thinkers that do not typically respond to human commands the same way other "human focused" working breeds respond to humans. I know a few GH exceptions with extensive training, no one can change instinct. There are important reasons behind each Greyhound adoption contract clause, each is intended to protect the animal. Adoption groups can legally reclaim Greyhounds when deemed necessary. It happens more than one might think.

Most respectfully, my grave concern is about over-glorification of off-leashing a rare handful of hounds on a large public forum. Many first-time Greyhound adopters think Greyhounds are just like other dogs. They are not. Newbies may not understand the years of extensive recall training and obedience work a few individual owners on this forum do with their own single hound or two. There are thousands of readers on GT who did sign a legally binding contract. Seems a disservice to sway them otherwise, especially when their Greyhound's life could be at stake. It would be great to see some off-leashers helping others find their lost Greyhounds in Greyhound Amber Alert; surprising how much can be done from afar with Google maps, phone/fax/email businesses.

Excellent post, MaryJane. Thank you for posting it.

 

 

More good stuff above for owners to think about. (Except the bit about professionals not needing fences if Greyhounds were trustworthy - that's just silly. We may have one or two mature, closely supervised pets, while breeders have dozens of unruly, unsupervised adolescent dogs.)

 

While Hester is an off leash hiker, I wouldn't even think of it if he was the sort of dog to run or even leave the trail in a forest environment. We have unbelievable blackberry bushes here that could seriously damage a Greyhound. But Hester has these managed as well. I have watched him stop on a trail and wait for me to move a blackberry cane that was in his way before he would proceed. The big fellow simply ticks all the boxes. He is much less likely to be injured on our hikes than when he is running in a secure area, something most of us allow our dogs to do. The number one place for injury seems to be in people's yards or homes from the stories on this forum

 

I do appologize if I appear to have glorified the off leash experience. On the contrary I was hoping to discourage anyone whose dog did not display the somewaht anomolous behaviour that Hester possesses from taking a chance.

 

Tomorrow I will take Hester to a beach to run with his girlfriend. It is completely secure. No chance for escape. However I fear this most as there is a chance he could step on a stone or shell while running. Is it irresponsible to let him have this experience? I do feel torn because I feel every ache an pain that he endures. I have to make the same types of decisions for my children. We like to ski, lots of risk. We want to go helicopter skiing. More risk. It so hard to say where the line is between living a great life and going to far.

Edited June 8, 2013 by KickReturn

[silverfish]

 

No, it is judgemental to speak down to someone or in such a way as to intentionally make them feel bad... in a way that is not constructive.

 

"I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this, but doesn't one of your dogs have seizures? Are his seizures well controlled on his medication right now? Because something you maybe didn't think of that I think is worth mentioning is that..." and into the reasons about the seizures. Does that not sound a lot less judgemental? Because it does to me. I might feel bad thinking "Oh my gosh, how could I have forgotten about that!" but I'm not going to feel like the dirt under your shoe. That's the difference between stating a fact/opinion and being judgemental.

 

And that is all I have to say about any of this. It was fun until the judging started. I'm not interested in the rest of this conversation. It is going nowhere good except to get locked.

 

 

Very well said. And I'm with you. After this post, I'm done.

 

Most respectfully, my grave concern is about over-glorification of off-leashing a rare handful of hounds on a large public forum. Many first-time Greyhound adopters think Greyhounds are just like other dogs. They are not. Newbies may not understand the years of extensive recall training and obedience work a few individual owners on this forum do with their own single hound or two. There are thousands of readers on GT who did sign a legally binding contract. Seems a disservice to sway them otherwise, especially when their Greyhound's life could be at stake. It would be great to see some off-leashers helping others find their lost Greyhounds in Greyhound Amber Alert; surprising how much can be done from afar with Google maps, phone/fax/email businesses.

 

I've been a member of Greytalk since 2002. I have learned a lot during these eleven years: I've learned a lot about greyhounds, and I've learned a lot about pack mentality, and the way a single post can start something which can destroy someone's equilibrium and pleasure in this great forum.

 

Over the years I have occasionally been a target of this, in a very small way, and I know first hand how crappy it can make you feel - I know firsthand how your first instinct can be to leave and never come back.

 

I've also witnessed this happening with people who've come on here asking for help and been shot down in flames or patronised or made to feel so low (as Krissy says 'the dirt under your shoe) and you know what? They often DO leave and don't come back. And we, who have been trying to help them, are left wondering what happened to that poor dog and if they ever solved the problem.

 

For these reasons, I am always very careful to write exactly what I mean, and using unthreatening language. I've never felt the need to patronise people or be rude to get my point across anyway but this forum has taught me how counter-productive it is, and often has the opposite effect to the one you want. I have to say here that I am aware that cultural differences between the US and the UK can make people come across differently to the way they intended and I try to make allowances for that, too.

 

Clearly I have failed miserably if you truly think I have been 'over-glorifying' my own experiences with off-leaders. This was most definitely not my intention.

 

If you read back to my first post, I was merely answering the OP honestly and factually. I gave my opinion (and made it clear that it was my opinion), gave some examples of some dangers I'd personally come across, and made a suggestion how to improve Henry's training so he was safer.

 

If you were not referring to me, I apologise. I also apologise if anyone thought I was promoting off-leading for all and sundry, or trying to give newbies the impression that if only they trained long and hard enough they'd be able to do it too. I tried hard not to give this impression, but maybe I failed. Lastly I apologise to the OP, because this really IS a hijack, which leads me to ...

 

I'm not answering 3greytjoys here specifically, but once a thread has reached the point where people are pointing the finger at one or more individual posters and blaming them for something, or making personal comments, or snide comments, or engaging in any other unproductive behaviour just to prove a point, then it will only go downhill and there's no point in me taking part any further. If anyone still wishes to talk with me about it, PM me. If you're polite and reasonable, I'll answer.

 

Oh, and respectfully, I'm sorry, I'd love to help get a lost hound home, but from England? Not so easy, I think.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

Alicia asked how to know if Henry was ready. She didn't ask "what do you think of me letting my dogs off leash?" She isn't some dumb kid who deserves to be treated like one. She's an adult and isn't brand new to greyhounds.

 

 

 

Actually, what Alicia asked in her original post was:

 

But if I continue to allow Henry to hike off-leash, are there any precautions I should take? I carry their recall whistle for emergencies anyway. But is there any type of other training I should consider? Am I overthinking this?

 

Which is what I believe most posters have been responding to. I did not see her insulted in any way because of her age or her intelligence.

[KickReturn]

No one should be upset. A little conflict is useful. Focus on the facts and ignore the emotion. We are all quite responsible owners I'm sure. Maybe even me too.

 

I will do my best to get a video of Hester walking within 8 to 10 feet of a deer (or two or three). It may take me a week or so but if I remember my camera I should be able to get something. The only wrinkle is it is Spring and all the babies have just been born. Also some huge bucks have come up into the neighbourhood. We'll see how that effects things. If I get good footage you guys will be amazed. And remember this is the same dog that has run with the deer in the past. He ignores them now because I ignore them. He is like that famous Cattle Dog, Skid Boot. Look it up on youtube. The dog copies everything its owner does. Oh and Hester's racing name?....Skidbootsahoot (Kiowa Sweet Trey x Sly Jill).

Edited June 8, 2013 by KickReturn

[3greytjoys]

To clarify: I simply meant for general animal control: Farm owners, nor professional race tracks want to lose their Greyhounds to escape. I agree that they keep them within fenced collective control for many reasons.

 

Silverfish: Everyone's varied experience is important for all of us. We all learn a lot here, myself included. You have much helpful experience to share, and you were not in mind when I posted. Again, just general terms.

 

KickReturn is right about focusing on factual content, that's what helps all our Greyhounds.

 

 

I have deleted my previous mention re: GAA help.

Edited June 8, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[zimsmom]

This is a long thread so I have not read all the posts. One thing that bugs me is some people think that if they don't let their dogs off leash then their quality of life is less than a dog that is allowed off the leash. Zim & Patches have traveled with me to the beach mountains hiking sledding and the city & not once let off the leash. They live like queens. In my opinion their quality of life is better than some humans I know.

[KickReturn]

This is a long thread so I have not read all the posts. One thing that bugs me is some people think that if they don't let their dogs off leash then their quality of life is less than a dog that is allowed off the leash. Zim & Patches have traveled with me to the beach mountains hiking sledding and the city & not once let off the leash. They live like queens. In my opinion their quality of life is better than some humans I know.

 

This is such a hard thing to determine. Unless you have seen your dog in both situations it really is impossible to know. Seeing Hester on and off leash regularely makes it clear his existence is elevated a great deal when given off leash freedom. He thinks more, he sniffs more, checks out more and different things, he changes pace more, more prancing, he looks around more. His face also lights up a bit more, more smiles, etc, is free to greet or avoid other off leash dogs. And in other ways he has made it clear it is what he prefers. I suspect for some dogs it wouldn't make a difference but for Hester it clearly does. If you have a dog that is not safe than it is a non starter. The fact is there are dogs and situations (fenced area, secure beach etc) that are safe so it becomes a consideration.

Edited June 9, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest PiagetsMom]

zimsmom, on 08 Jun 2013 - 6:58 PM, said:

This is a long thread so I have not read all the posts. One thing that bugs me is some people think that if they don't let their dogs off leash then their quality of life is less than a dog that is allowed off the leash. Zim & Patches have traveled with me to the beach mountains hiking sledding and the city & not once let off the leash. They live like queens. In my opinion their quality of life is better than some humans I know.

 

 

 

This is such a hard thing to determine. Unless you have seen your dog in both situations it really is impossible to know. Seeing Hester on and off leash regularely makes it clear his existence is elevated a great deal when given off leash freedom. He thinks more, he sniffs more, checks out more and different things, he changes pace more, more prancing, he looks around more. His face also lights up a bit more, more smiles, etc, is free to greet or avoid other off leash dogs. And in other ways he has made it clear it is what he prefers. I suspect for some dogs it wouldn't make a difference but for Hester it clearly does. If you have a dog that is not safe than it is a non starter. The fact is there are dogs and situations (fenced area, secure beach etc) that are safe so it becomes a consideration.

 

 

I'm sure there are many of our retired pups who loved racing....running fast around that track after the lure. Most of them don't do it anymore because most of us don't have the facilities to allow for it, but has the quality of their lives been much diminished because they don't? Does it make them less of a "dog" because they're no longer doing what these dogs were bred and trained to do? I see a lot of very happy dogs here every day who don't seem to be suffering by no longer doing what they preferred to do.

 

We recently had a thread about people who equate feeding/treating a dog to the point of obesity, to a happy/loved dog. Those dogs would definitely be healthier if their humans didn't equate food with love, and I think most of us agree that they would probably be just as happy if their owners showed/shared their love in other ways - with walks, playing with toys, etc. I have to agree with Zimsmom - I've had multiple dogs over the years, several breeds, and none of them were ever off-leash. I feel they all were just as much a "dog" as any other dog, as well as happy and well loved. JMO, dogs don't miss what they don't know, so I really feel that it is more about the owner and what their perception is of what their dog needs, than whether the dog is less happy without it.

 

Sorry, maybe some "apples to oranges" here, but it made sense while I was thinking it!

Edited June 9, 2013 by PiagetsMom

[KickReturn]

I've had multiple dogs over the years, several breeds, and none of them were ever off-leash. I feel they all were just as much a "dog" as any other dog, as well as happy and well loved. JMO, dogs don't miss what they don't know, so I really feel that it is more about the owner and what their perception is of what their dog needs, than whether the dog is less happy without it.

 

 

 

It's not whether the dog knows its life could be better or not. It's about the owner recognizing it could be better and providing the opportunity if circumstances allow. And as I pointed out unless you can compare the same dog in both situations you will never know the contribution that being off leash will make to that particular dog.

 

And indeed a dog can have a truly great life without ever being off leash. (Hester did for the first six months he was with me.)

[a_daerr]

Wow, I'm just now getting through all these replies... There are only a few things I want to address, and then I'll give it a rest.

 

Number one, the decision to off-leash Henry was NOT in any way impulsive. I didn't say, 'Wow, I'm totally annoyed with these leashes, and I'm just letting him off... who cares.' We have practiced extensive recall with both of our dogs. We do reinforcement training with verbal recall and a whistle every time we go to the dog park, which is several times a week. He was completely ready. It was me who was nervous... and not because I doubted his abilities. We've just never done it before. Before his TDI test, it was the same thing. I was a nervous wreck, even though he was more than prepared (and passed every item with no problem). There is always fear and hesitance when it comes to the 'unknown.' I would never put my dog at risk if I didn't have total faith in his abilities. Let's not insult me here- my love for Henry is way stronger than any amount of annoyance over a tangled leash.

 

Secondly, Henry is indeed a seizure dog. His medication is well controlled, and he has not had a seizure in almost seven months. Of course, that doesn't mean much because a seizure can strike at any time. But I am always cognizant of his epilepsy wherever we go. I have a bag with a first aid kit, Halt! spray, and Bachs Rescue Remedy with me at all times. I don't quite understand what bearing his seizures have on this issue, though... unless you're suggesting that I'd just let him wander away out of my line of vision? I have no plans to do that, and I doubt he would anyway. Off-leash, he stays no more than six feet away from me and Truman. I did mention that in a previous post- when he started to lag behind, he responded to his name and immediately went back into a heel position.

 

And lastly, I do not plan to completely throw his leash in the trash can now. He still wears it 95% of the time. I walk the dogs on a public trail in my neighborhood everyday. Leash. Getting in and out of the car. Leash. In an area where there are other leashed dogs around. Leash. But in the middle of the woods, at a lake, where there is no imminent threat of traffic? I'm comfortable taking that risk.

 

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed at some of the responses... Tiffany (WhiteWave) posts pics all the time of her dogs off-leash on hikes, and many of you comment on how happy they look, how much fun they have. How is that scenario any different than mine? I don't really understand why or how this turned into a personal attack. Nevertheless, I respect everyone's opinion. I'm a little hurt though. I really didn't expect six pages of flaming when for over three years, I've shown only the utmost love, commitment, and responsibility to my dogs on this forum.

 

That's it. Mods, permission to lock.

[KickReturn]

To me it sounds like you have a real candidate for off leash adventures. The only thing to watch is his response to rabbits and squirrels. If he is content to ignore them (with or without your encouragement) then you'll probably do fine. Over time expect him to build confidence and stray a little further from you to sniff and pee. He will probably keep his eye on you during though. Please post photos of your adventures.

 

As for the "personal attacks" I am sure everyone had both your dogs and your best interest at heart. Don't give it a moments thought. I have never felt attacked and I am by far the worst offender when it comes to off leash shennanigans.

 

Good luck, carry your best treats and always scan the trail ahead.

[Guest FullMetalFrank]

I do one thing with my hounds off leash in areas which may be less than totally or even completely lacking fencing; lure coursing trials or practices over the years have been held at places without a secure fenced in area. I have trained with all of them initially in a fenced field, None oif them has ever dreamed of straying, they only have eyes for the white plastic bag and won't notice anything else, while we retrieve them and leash them up until their next heat. I was hesitant the first time we encountered a trial in a park that was just a great open space; them remembered that nothing, no sweet talking, no treats, nothing will make them look away from the prize or willingly let go; Of course not every greyhound is this keen, or every sighthound at a trial. Mom has seen an Afghan or two run right past the lure and go on a fun romp with Mom or Dad giving chase, what a fun game! And some of our Borzoi friends run right past their catchers and right to their vehicle, let me in my crate! Again; know your doig and don't take anything for granted. I don't hike or walk with mine offleash, We have strict leash laws, for one; and without the excitement of theri favorite activity, I couldn't be sure that they would not run off after another dog, or a kite that looked kind of like a plastic bag, etc.. They are only that predictable when they are immersed in their favorite sport. They see the same items; the judges tent, the lure operator, they know the colored frisbees mark the start line, and the human next to them that says the magic words that makes mom or dad let go already, Tally ho! I think that they become as familiar with what goes where as they were at the race track. After we retrieve them, they lead us on ther cooling out walk; lets go past the boards so mom can read our scores, stop by the expen for a quick drink of water, stroll past the campers and make the other dogs bark at us, walk really slow because Mom is going toward te eporta potty and maybe we can make her pee her pants! And when we have stopped panting super ,hard lets go to the expen and Nonnie, you better leave me alone I am going to take a power nap then scam a bite of Mommie's chocolate donut... And after Best in Field we get our ribbons, and a biskie!

[GeorgeofNE]

 

Not that I am necessarily for or against off leash dogs:

 

At least for a lot of groups in the USA, when you sign the agreement, they can in fact do something about it, as many groups still retain partial ownership. Because the pets are indeed "property" I have read a lot of adoption clauses that retain partial ownership of the dog. I have also known a few groups that have gone out and reclaimed a dog for failure to abide the contract. Never specifically for an leash clause, but for other things that violated the contract.

 

 

 

This is the legal portion of my adoption agreement. "THE LEGAL PARTS:

10. --- retains a partial ownership lien on the greyhound whose tattoo numbers are shown on

this application. If at any time this dog is judged by FoG board members or by Animal

Control personnel or other legal authorities to be abused in any way, this adoption is null

and void. FoG may assume custody of the greyhound and all ownership rights will pass to

Friends of Greyhounds. Adopter will forfeit any and all adoption rights.

11. The adoption fee is non-refundable. --- accepts checks and credit cards. Dishonored

checks or credit cards will nullify this adoption agreement.

12. Failure to abide by this agreement may result in civil and/or criminal proceedings against

the adopter. Should legal action become necessary, the adopter agrees to be liable for

attorney’s fees should --- prevail.

The adopter(s) signature(s)on the last page indicates agreement to all 12 (twelve) of these clauses."

For the record, I have never seen a USA greyhound adoption contract that didn't have a leash clause. Greyhound grps are also so communicative, that you could essentially be blacklisted by many grps on heresay. I don't feel that's right, as quite frankly, I have never heard of a lost grey/injured grey that was due to being off leash. I think many groups have this clause to protect the not 100% commonsense owners. Many people adopt a grey and never research/train etc. There is nothing wrong with that, but instilling these fears into an adopted at the beginning may protect that hound in the future if the person staunchly believe they can never let the dog off leash.

 

 

I doubt very much that contract is legally binding.

 

I have a piece of paper from the NGA showing that dog #92A-15005 is mine. My adoption group has nothing of the sort. I cannot imagine any law enforcement agency, should you elect to go to court over such a contract, would actually enforce the contracts.

[KickReturn]

 

I doubt very much that contract is legally binding.

 

I have a piece of paper from the NGA showing that dog #92A-15005 is mine. My adoption group has nothing of the sort. I cannot imagine any law enforcement agency, should you elect to go to court over such a contract, would actually enforce the contracts.

 

Yes, only moral suasion could be used to get a resistant owner to return a improperly cared for dog. But of course a legal status of the agreement is not the best way to ensure the wellbeing of Greyhounds. Knowledge such as that contained in this thread and making sure only the right people end up with them in the first place is the key.