No Judgments... Question About Off-Leash Hiking

[Batmom]

The fact that there are greyhounds like Hester and Jim is - I believe - important to know, because it sounds as if Henry could be another such greyhound. Is it fair to keep silent

 

Why is it important to know, and unfair to keep silent? There's no reason a dog has to be off leash. By that token, one would need to recommend that every dog owner install hasps and padlocks on home refrigerators, because some few dogs can open them, or install 8 foot fences with angled tops because some dogs can climb the 6 foot ones.

 

In this case, OP is uncertain, which strongly suggests that OP's greyhound is not in fact as reliable as Hester and Jim.

[krissy]

 

In this case, OP is uncertain, which strongly suggests that OP's greyhound is not in fact as reliable as Hester and Jim.

 

I don't think that's true. Anyone would be uncertain the first few times they off leash their dog. You've never tried it before. You may have prepared both yourself and your dog well. You may have many hikes with a long line as previous experience. But you don't know for SURE until you try it. I'm always nervous the first time I try something. I was nervous the first time I rode a bike. I was nervous my first day of school. I was nervous my first day as a vet. Does that mean I wasn't ready to be a vet or that I'm a bad one? I don't think so. I'd just never done it before. I was nervous the first few times I off leashed Summit. I was nervous a couple of weekends ago when Summit was asked to be an agility demo dog for our trainer at the local humane society walk-a-thon. He hadn't trained outside yet this year. He's never performed at high noon (classes are always in the evenings). He'd never performed in front of so many people. I was really nervous that he might decide "Nah, I don't want to do agility right now" even though past experience tells me that he LOVES agility. I didn't know for sure what he'd do. He did great.

[Batmom]

 

I don't think that's true. Anyone would be uncertain the first few times they off leash their dog. You've never tried it before. You may have prepared both yourself and your dog well. You may have many hikes with a long line as previous experience. But you don't know for SURE until you try it.

 

I don't know how a "suggests" can be untrue .... If you're uncertain -- if you have doubts about what your dog will do -- you and your dog aren't ready. It isn't a show or a contest.

[silverfish]

 

Why is it important to know, and unfair to keep silent? There's no reason a dog has to be off leash. By that token, one would need to recommend that every dog owner install hasps and padlocks on home refrigerators, because some few dogs can open them, or install 8 foot fences with angled tops because some dogs can climb the 6 foot ones.

 

In this case, OP is uncertain, which strongly suggests that OP's greyhound is not in fact as reliable as Hester and Jim.

 

In order to properly evaluate ANY situation, one needs to know the parameters, Jey. If you only present one side of the story, you are skewing the argument in favour of that side. The OP has asked a specific question. For me to not present the 'pro' side would seem dishonest to me, because I would be tacitly agreeing with all those who posted only 'cons' and I do not so agree.

 

Your refrigerator analogy actually supports my case.

 

Saying that all greyhounds should always be leashed is exactly like saying all refrigerators should have padlocks and every garden/yard should have an eight foot fence because some dogs need that. So, you always keep your dogs leashed. Does your refrigerator have a hasp and padlock, and are your fences 8' high, even though your dogs don't need it? Do your dogs always wear a martingale linked to an anti-escape harness because some dogs need it?

 

Sure, the numbers of dogs who need leashing 100% of the time is greater than the number of dogs who can open refrigerators and scale 8 foot fences, but the logic is identical. If I don't need padlocks or eight foot fences I don't use them. If I don't need to keep a dog leashed 100% of the time, I don't do it. I will do all those things as the need arises.

 

It's like the bone/no bones issue. I was banned from a generic dog forum once for saying that I fed my dogs raw bones. The owner/admin was on the 'no bones, ever' side of the fence and thought that, because a minority of dogs get broken teeth and impactions/gut perforations, the safest option was that no dog should ever eat bones.

 

And I'd just like to say that I am truly impressed that this discussion has reached four pages without heat and without getting personal.

[Batmom]

But you weren't talking about leash-off leash in general. You were talking about it being important to know that there are greyhounds like Jim and Hester. It isn't important to know that, and it isn't relevant to the discussion of greyhounds in general, dogs in general, or OP's situation. Just as the refrigerator question isn't relevant to the discussion of greyhounds in general, dogs in general, or OP's situation.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I guess my question to KickReturn would be this: Do you have a leash law where you live? Because if you do, Hester - regardless of his recall and temperment - should be leashed.

 

And, to the OP......from you posting here, you're obviously someone who's spent a lot of time training your greys, and know what you're doing - I feel you (and your pups) are better prepared than most to be considering this. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to always keep your greys on leash (well, even if you did), then it is up to you as to whether you feel that you are willing to take a risk with your grey's recall. I don't think anyone here could, with certainty, tell you whether or not hiking with Henry off-leash would be safe.

Edited June 8, 2013 by PiagetsMom

[krissy]

I suppose this could be off topic, but I just found an older post on a blog that I recently started following. The post it is from was discussing a course she has taken in the past and is taking again because she enjoyed it so much. I guess every year they hold a contest where participants from the previous year can enter a video describing their experience with the Recallers course and if they win they get their next Recallers course for free. Anyway, this was her video about her whippets and I thought it was great. Highlights my personal feelings very well.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9Bfrfd_TM2A

 

And here's the link to the post if you want to read more: http://rubythewhippet.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/teaching-a-brilliant-recall/

 

Oh, and last year's video. Her older dog was actually hit by a car before he could be taught a rock solid recall. A second time after taking the course, having a recall saved his life when his leash snapped. And she still feels comfortable letting him off leash now. I'm super interested in this online course and I think I'm going to look into taking it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_901178&feature=iv&src_vid=9Bfrfd_TM2A&v=5Jmo6OKogF4

 

Alisha... maybe taking this course would give you the last bit of confidence you need to decide if you can/want to trust Henry off leash.

Edited June 8, 2013 by krissy

[MaryJane]

I've been waiting for this thread to get locked so I wouldn't feel the need to respond but, it's still open ... karma I guess ...

 

First ---

 

Your decision to let Henry off-leash was not carefully thought out - instead, the leashes got tangled and the rationale was, let's just let him off-leash and "see what happens". This is not a plus for Henry

 

Second -- (and this is a big one)

 

One of your dogs is a seizure dog (which no one has mentioned) and this has a strong bearing on this particular situation. If Henry is the seizure dog, then if he gets loose he would not get his medicine and that will make it very likely that he has a seizure and if he is in the wild, that would attract all sorts of nasty creatures and he would not have much of a chance to survive -- This is not a plus for Henry.

 

If it is Truman that is the seizure dog and if he has a seizure on the trail, in the chaos, Henry could become agitated (which happens to other dogs when a dog is having a seizure) and could take off and, he might not even be missed. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Third --

 

This situation smacks of someone saying to you "why don't you just let your dog off-leash and see what happens" and with that, good chance that someone manipulated you and it's hard to tell from my seat, what their objective was. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Fourth --

 

By letting your dog loose, you are ignoring the rights of other people (and their small children) that would like to walk the trails without having loose dogs. This is not a plus for Henry or for other people.

 

Fifth --

 

You signed a contract stating that you will not let your dog loose, is this how "good your word" is? This is not a plus for Henry or for you and it does not bode well for future adoptions.

 

Sixth --

 

Walking without a leash for an hour does not seem to be sufficient cause to let a dog loose because the risk is so high. One one side is your dog being able to sniff and frolic a bit (they can do this is a fenced in yard) and on the other side is having a lost dog and possibly one that dies from being out in the elements. A dog lost in the woods might be much harder to find because there would be NO sightings. This is not a plus for Henry and for the many searchers that would give their all to help out.

 

Seventh --

 

Statistic are funny .. if your dog comes back 99% of the time is sounds pretty good but, that means that ONE time out of a HUNDRED he/she does not come back. Hmmmm -- not so good. Another funny thing that happens is that the more someone lets a dog loose and they came back, the person starts to feel complacent (this is the killer) and they don't realize that the odds are working against them. Let me explain, if you let your dog lose 99 times and he/she comes back, the percentages (on the 100th time letting him/her loose) are now that your dog is 99% NOT going to came back. So how does that work ... out of 100 times, the dog does not come back once .. if they have already been loose 99 times and came back .. that 1% is still lurking out there and it's pretty much saying that your dog is on now on borrowed time. (Didn't Krissy's dog also get lost just recently ???).

 

And using the "Black Swan" analogy .. I can say that Henry will not come back one time and it just takes ONE time for me to be right ... while you can say that Henry will always came back ... and it will just take one time for you to be wrong. If you were a betting person - who would you bet on? This is not a plus for Henry.

 

 

There are many more to the list but, I'm sure the moderators will chime in and I might even get lightly reprimanded (as I should) but, it would be "bad karma" for me to ignore this and to not state what I think about the situation. Previously, I ignored threads on this forum where dogs ending up in unfortunate circumstances and those threads have come back to haunt me more than once ...

[cristar]

Well, after being an adoption rep for my group for five years, I used to get a little

hot under the collar when I'd hear of one of the dogs I adopted out being seen off leash.

Granted, yes our contract does have the leash clause in it, but some have chosen not to abide

by that and some have ended up with the ultimate price to pay for it.

Do a lot of grey owners let their dogs off leash? Of course they do.

Will a lot of grey owners continue to do it, even though they know it could end in tragedy? Of

course they will.

It's a chance that only you can take and feel comfortable with it.

 

In my opinion, no matter where you are, if your grey is running off leash in an unfenced area,

you will be taking a risk.

 

It's not easy trying to pick up the body of a 75 lb. male that you've been looking for for hours,

only to find him lifeless on the side of the road after his owner thought for sure he was fine off

leash.

 

Been there, done that. It's something I never have to want to do again.

[vjgrey]

I've been waiting for this thread to get locked so I wouldn't feel the need to respond but, it's still open ... karma I guess ...

 

First ---

 

Your decision to let Henry off-leash was not carefully thought out - instead, the leashes got tangled and the rationale was, let's just let him off-leash and "see what happens". This is not a plus for Henry

 

Second -- (and this is a big one)

 

One of your dogs is a seizure dog (which no one has mentioned) and this has a strong bearing on this particular situation. If Henry is the seizure dog, then if he gets loose he would not get his medicine and that will make it very likely that he has a seizure and if he is in the wild, that would attract all sorts of nasty creatures and he would not have much of a chance to survive -- This is not a plus for Henry.

 

If it is Truman that is the seizure dog and if he has a seizure on the trail, in the chaos, Henry could become agitated (which happens to other dogs when a dog is having a seizure) and could take off and, he might not even be missed. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Third --

 

This situation smacks of someone saying to you "why don't you just let your dog off-leash and see what happens" and with that, good chance that someone manipulated you and it's hard to tell from my seat, what their objective was. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Fourth --

 

By letting your dog loose, you are ignoring the rights of other people (and their small children) that would like to walk the trails without having loose dogs. This is not a plus for Henry or for other people.

 

Fifth --

 

You signed a contract stating that you will not let your dog loose, is this how "good your word" is? This is not a plus for Henry or for you and it does not bode well for future adoptions.

 

Sixth --

 

Walking without a leash for an hour does not seem to be sufficient cause to let a dog loose because the risk is so high. One one side is your dog being able to sniff and frolic a bit (they can do this is a fenced in yard) and on the other side is having a lost dog and possibly one that dies from being out in the elements. A dog lost in the woods might be much harder to find because there would be NO sightings. This is not a plus for Henry and for the many searchers that would give their all to help out.

 

Seventh --

 

Statistic are funny .. if your dog comes back 99% of the time is sounds pretty good but, that means that ONE time out of a HUNDRED he/she does not come back. Hmmmm -- not so good. Another funny thing that happens is that the more someone lets a dog loose and they came back, the person starts to feel complacent (this is the killer) and they don't realize that the odds are working against them. Let me explain, if you let your dog lose 99 times and he/she comes back, the percentages (on the 100th time letting him/her loose) are now that your dog is 99% NOT going to came back. So how does that work ... out of 100 times, the dog does not come back once .. if they have already been loose 99 times and came back .. that 1% is still lurking out there and it's pretty much saying that your dog is on now on borrowed time. (Didn't Krissy's dog also get lost just recently ???).

 

And using the "Black Swan" analogy .. I can say that Henry will not come back one time and it just takes ONE time for me to be right ... while you can say that Henry will always came back ... and it will just take one time for you to be wrong. If you were a betting person - who would you bet on? This is not a plus for Henry.

 

 

There are many more to the list but, I'm sure the moderators will chime in and I might even get lightly reprimanded (as I should) but, it would be "bad karma" for me to ignore this and to not state what I think about the situation. Previously, I ignored threads on this forum where dogs ending up in unfortunate circumstances and those threads have come back to haunt me more than once ...

 

Very well said.

[45MPHK9]

I love you, Mary Jane.

[krissy]

Well... we WERE doing well not judging and flaming. 4.5 pages might be a record.

[silverfish]

I've been waiting for this thread to get locked so I wouldn't feel the need to respond but, it's still open ... karma I guess ...

 

First ---

 

Your decision to let Henry off-leash was not carefully thought out - instead, the leashes got tangled and the rationale was, let's just let him off-leash and "see what happens". This is not a plus for Henry

 

Second -- (and this is a big one)

 

One of your dogs is a seizure dog (which no one has mentioned) and this has a strong bearing on this particular situation. If Henry is the seizure dog, then if he gets loose he would not get his medicine and that will make it very likely that he has a seizure and if he is in the wild, that would attract all sorts of nasty creatures and he would not have much of a chance to survive -- This is not a plus for Henry.

 

If it is Truman that is the seizure dog and if he has a seizure on the trail, in the chaos, Henry could become agitated (which happens to other dogs when a dog is having a seizure) and could take off and, he might not even be missed. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Third --

 

This situation smacks of someone saying to you "why don't you just let your dog off-leash and see what happens" and with that, good chance that someone manipulated you and it's hard to tell from my seat, what their objective was. This is not a plus for Henry.

 

Fourth --

 

By letting your dog loose, you are ignoring the rights of other people (and their small children) that would like to walk the trails without having loose dogs. This is not a plus for Henry or for other people.

 

Fifth --

 

You signed a contract stating that you will not let your dog loose, is this how "good your word" is? This is not a plus for Henry or for you and it does not bode well for future adoptions.

 

Sixth --

 

Walking without a leash for an hour does not seem to be sufficient cause to let a dog loose because the risk is so high. One one side is your dog being able to sniff and frolic a bit (they can do this is a fenced in yard) and on the other side is having a lost dog and possibly one that dies from being out in the elements. A dog lost in the woods might be much harder to find because there would be NO sightings. This is not a plus for Henry and for the many searchers that would give their all to help out.

 

Seventh --

 

Statistic are funny .. if your dog comes back 99% of the time is sounds pretty good but, that means that ONE time out of a HUNDRED he/she does not come back. Hmmmm -- not so good. Another funny thing that happens is that the more someone lets a dog loose and they came back, the person starts to feel complacent (this is the killer) and they don't realize that the odds are working against them. Let me explain, if you let your dog lose 99 times and he/she comes back, the percentages (on the 100th time letting him/her loose) are now that your dog is 99% NOT going to came back. So how does that work ... out of 100 times, the dog does not come back once .. if they have already been loose 99 times and came back .. that 1% is still lurking out there and it's pretty much saying that your dog is on now on borrowed time. (Didn't Krissy's dog also get lost just recently ???).

 

And using the "Black Swan" analogy .. I can say that Henry will not come back one time and it just takes ONE time for me to be right ... while you can say that Henry will always came back ... and it will just take one time for you to be wrong. If you were a betting person - who would you bet on? This is not a plus for Henry.

 

 

There are many more to the list but, I'm sure the moderators will chime in and I might even get lightly reprimanded (as I should) but, it would be "bad karma" for me to ignore this and to not state what I think about the situation. Previously, I ignored threads on this forum where dogs ending up in unfortunate circumstances and those threads have come back to haunt me more than once ...

 

Ungghh ... that sounds a tad judgemental to me, which is a pity. We were doing so well.

 

Well... we WERE doing well not judging and flaming. 4.5 pages might be a record.

 

[Batmom]

Everybody here is judging. It's just, some are judging one way and some another.

[FiveRoooooers]

I thought it was pinned in the AA forum but can't find the link to the article "Trust Is a Dangerous Thing" or whatever it's called. If someone else can find it, please post it here. Thank you.

[macoduck]

I think Mary Jane brings up some very valid points.

Those of us who have had to pick up the broken body of a lost dog can't help but have of hardened view of dogs let off leash deliberately. For me that outweighs the videos of beautiful free-running dogs.

Edited June 8, 2013 by macoduck

[KickReturn]

Well... we WERE doing well not judging and flaming. 4.5 pages might be a record.

 

Not that much flaming or judging - just opinions and strong feelings and it is important to share these. To lock this thread would be a disservice - the contents will likely save a Greyhound's life one day. The arguments against off leash are very strong, and some new owner likely will be discouraged from taking a chance. And if they do take that risk their is info here that is very useful.

Edited June 8, 2013 by KickReturn

[KickReturn]

I guess my question to KickReturn would be this: Do you have a leash law where you live? Because if you do, Hester - regardless of his recall and temperment - should be leashed.

 

 

 

Yes we have the standard leash laws although ours reads more about dogs running at large. The community here is unusual. Probably half the dogs we encounter are off leash. Very rare to run into anything but well mannered dogs and owners. On two occasion the animal control officer in our area has encountered Hester and his only reaction was to fall in love with him immediately and talk about all the different animals he has rescued that now live with him. My only other contact with this officer was when I reported a neighbour's dog that has never been walked in the four years I lived here. The officer spent 2 hours at their house speaking with them. (But they still don't walk their damn dog!! Poor fella)

[krissy]

 

Not that much flaming or judging - just opinions and strong feelings and it is important to share these. To lock this thread would be a disservice - the contents will likely save a Greyhound's life one day. The arguments against off leash are very strong, and some new owner likely will be discouraged from taking a chance. And if they do take that risk their is info here that is very useful.

 

I don't know, I saw some harsh sentiments in there. The OP didn't really ask for opinions... she asked for advice on how to do it. Which is probably why she is now not commenting much as this has turned into an off leash debate... again.

 

Everybody here is judging. It's just, some are judging one way and some another.

 

Sure. And I judge the owners who bring in their new puppy and then tell me they don't have time/money/interest in taking it to puppy school. I judge the person who comes in and wants me to euthanize the healthy cat that belonged to his mother who just passed away (and I refuse to do it, FYI). I judge the person who calls because their pet has fleas/is limping/needs heartworm medication but we haven't seen the animal in 5 years and they don't want to pay for an exam fee because they don't need to see the doctor because their pet is "perfectly healthy" and they "just need the medication". I judge them all even though I try not to. Thing is, I do it in my head. I share the facts and my opinion in as non-judgemental a way as possible and the rest I just think. Which is what we should be doing here in this discussion. And we were. Couldn't expect it to last forever though I suppose. I'm impressed it lasted as long as it did anyway.

[FiveRoooooers]

Here ya go.

 

http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/advice/general_advice/trust_a_deadly_disease.shtml

[Batmom]

Thing is, I do it in my head.

 

But that is not what people have been doing in this thread. They've been sharing experiences and stating opinions. Are those opinions non-judgmental only if they agree with a certain limited point of view? Lots of points of view out there ......

[grey14me]

I try not to judge because I did let my first greyhound off leash. But I did learn, from people on GT, and I chose to never let my second greyhound off leash.

However, to have let your dog off leash, and then lost it, and then continue to do it...I have no words.

[Batmom]

However, to have let your dog off leash, and then lost it, and then continue to do it...I have no words.

 

People do it all the time, Michelle. I was in the vet's office this morning chatting with someone bringing in their new non-grey for a checkup. It was busy so we chatted for quite a time. They had a new dog because the old one was hit by a van and the vet couldn't save him. They don't leash their dogs, except in the vet's office and at obedience class. Ouch.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Batmom

[grey14me]

Ugh

[krissy]

 

But that is not what people have been doing in this thread. They've been sharing experiences and stating opinions. Are those opinions non-judgmental only if they agree with a certain limited point of view? Lots of points of view out there ......

 

No, it is judgemental to speak down to someone or in such a way as to intentionally make them feel bad... in a way that is not constructive.

 

"I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this, but doesn't one of your dogs have seizures? Are his seizures well controlled on his medication right now? Because something you maybe didn't think of that I think is worth mentioning is that..." and into the reasons about the seizures. Does that not sound a lot less judgemental? Because it does to me. I might feel bad thinking "Oh my gosh, how could I have forgotten about that!" but I'm not going to feel like the dirt under your shoe. That's the difference between stating a fact/opinion and being judgemental.

 

And that is all I have to say about any of this. It was fun until the judging started. I'm not interested in the rest of this conversation. It is going nowhere good except to get locked.