Melatonin, Prozac, Clomicalm Questions

[macoduck]

An adopter's dog has severe separation anxiety. Unfortunately they may have contributed to the problem by leaving the dog crated all day and at night. He has been chewing on the wire crate to the point of bleeding from his mouth. He has destroyed the house when left out of crate. They do not have a fenced yard. They do not have time for a morning walk but do take him on a 45 minute walk each evening. He is leash-reactive when he sees other dogs (more "I'm interested" than attack mode).

 

He's been with them for 2 years and they don't want to rehome him. An experienced greyhound person who lives near them is trying to help on-site. That person and I have concluded that because the behavior went on for a long time before these folks asked for help, this dog may need some medication. I went through this when I first adopted Gracie. She was so distraught that she didn't "get" alone training until clomicalm began to relax her. She only needed to be on it for a few months.

 

I have also suggested:

DAP diffuser and spray on bedding, Kong w/ frozen peanut butter, muzzling w/ pnb in the muzzle to encourage him getting used to it again, Canine Lullabies CD, more walks using hot dog bits for "watch me" training, doggy daycare, Bachs Remedy, and then alone training when they see he is beginning to relax. Can't do alone training now as he will go into destructive mode immediately.

 

Tell me about using prozac and melatonin. Will prozac have an immediate effect or does the dose need to be build up (like clomicalm) before you see results? How much melatonin is OK for a 70 lb dog?

 

What else can I suggest?

 

Editing to add: how about Inderal instead of Prozac?

Edited May 20, 2013 by macoduck

[Guest DeniseL]

I am by NO MEANS an expert on this, I will only share my experience. My boy Miami was prescribed Prozac for fear aggression and generalized anxiety disorder by UPenn Behavior dept. We took him as a last resort because my DH and my family were at the point of demanding I give him back. He started on 15 mg for a week then went up to 30mg. he is 72 lbs. It took about a week, but I noticed improvement. It takes about 6 weeks for full effect. He is a different dog. His whole being just relaxed, it is amazing. The difference is subtle but drastic, if that makes sense. He is responding to the training we are doing and just dealing with his life better. We are probably going to keep him on it for a year and then try to wean him off.

 

On a side note, Miami had some serious sleep startle and aggression. Although, that is not why we took him to the behaviorist, it has all but gone away on the Prozac. I didn't know how I felt about putting a dog on a med like that, but I have never looked back after seeing how much better he is. A much happier and more confident dog. I am so happy for him (and for us lol).

 

Good luck. I hop she responded to whatever path you take with her.

[Houndtime]

John E was a on prozac for fear aggression. There is a build up period. The dog doesn't get wonky but sort of mellow. You have work with the dog on exercises for behavior modification. No doctor should just give a prescription for prozac. The dog should be assessed and evaluated on the dosage and need.

[a_daerr]

Prozac is going to take some time to build up in the system (usually 4-6 weeks). Same with Clomicalm. It may be a good idea to use one of those in combination with a short-term anti-anxiety medication like Xanax, as it sounds like she could use some immediate relief. Melatonin is more of a homeopathic remedy. I've used it to treat hair loss, buy found that it had minimal to no sedative effects. If they do want to give Melatonin a try, it's usually 3g tablets once or twice a day.

 

Here's my question though... They've had this dog for TWO YEARS? I sincerely hope that it's a change at happened recently that affected her behavior. If she's had problems of this extent for several years, I'd rehome ASAP.

Edited May 20, 2013 by a_daerr

[robinw]

Here's my question though... They've had this dog for TWO YEARS? I sincerely hope that it's a change at happened recently that affected her behavior. If she's had problems of this extent for several years, I rehome ASAP.

Iker was prescribed Clomicalm last year and it is still sitting unused in my kitchen. I think sometimes people are reluctant to try meds. I wouldn't say that means that their dogs should be rehomed. Do you think Iker should be rehomed? He's had issues since before I adopted him.

[a_daerr]

No, no. That's not what I meant. It just sounds really bad if she's breaking teeth on the crate, and they're just now addressing the problem. Two years is a long time for a dog to suffer from those kinds of issues.

[Batmom]

I agree with Alicia. Iker's case seems a little different. For a dog to have a bleeding mouth from being crated because otherwise s/he'll destroy the house (or be hurt worse??), crated most of the time, no way to get enough exercise to get tired before people leave ... for two years ... this isn't good for the dog (or the people, of course). I think the person helping with this situation might try to gently prepare the owners for the possibility that the dog might be happier and healthier in another situation, while a different dog might thrive in their home.

[greysmom]

Prozac will take at least two weeks to build up to a clinically helpful level. And even then, there's no guarantee that this med will work. Like with people, each individual responds differently to each medication, and they may need to try several before they find one that will really work. We tried three meds - xanax, Clomicalm, and off-label Prozac - before trying Paxil, which was finally effective. Now, we use a combination of Xanax and Paxil to help our spook manage her anxiety.

 

I agree that this dog needs help faster than the two-week build-up period. Xanax is a short-acting anti-anxiety drug that is usually used for storm anxiety or fireworks. An average weight greyhound dosage is 2mg every 8 hours. Xanax can also be used in conjunction with other anti-anxiety meds on a long-term and short-term basis. Valium can also be used but it is more of a sedative than an anti-anxiety drug.

 

It needs to be stressed that anti-anxiety drugs are not a miracle cure. They only allow the dog's brain to become available to accept training. Behavior modification needs to be started and continued once the meds have taken effect.

 

I also have questions about this adoption. I realize they have had this dog for an extended period and may feel they can't give him back (for whatever reason). But it sounds like they would rather have the dog destroy their house than get up an hour earlier to get him some much needed exercise. It just doesn't sound like a good fit to me.

[BatterseaBrindl]

No, no. That's not what I meant. It just sounds really bad if she's breaking teeth on the crate, and they're just now addressing the problem. Two years is a long time for a dog to suffer from those kinds of issues.

 

 

We got Nigel from a home who left him crated for very long periods of time.... so long that he was peeing and pooing in there, plus barking constantly.

But at least he had only been in that home for a few months before the family realized he was not the dog for them.

 

 

 

I agree with Alicia. Iker's case seems a little different. For a dog to have a bleeding mouth from being crated because otherwise s/he'll destroy the house (or be hurt worse??), crated most of the time, no way to get enough exercise to get tired before people leave ... for two years ... this isn't good for the dog (or the people, of course). I think the person helping with this situation might try to gently prepare the owners for the possibility that the dog might be happier and healthier in another situation, while a different dog might thrive in their home.

 

Two years is a long time for the poor dog to be this stressed out

Sheesh...If they aren't willing to get up an hour earlier in the morning ....and have waited two years to ask for help....

The dog deserves better than that.

 

 

Prozac will take at least two weeks to build up to a clinically helpful level. And even then, there's no guarantee that this med will work. Like with people, each individual responds differently to each medication, and they may need to try several before they find one that will really work. We tried three meds - xanax, Clomicalm, and off-label Prozac - before trying Paxil, which was finally effective. Now, we use a combination of Xanax and Paxil to help our spook manage her anxiety.

 

I agree that this dog needs help faster than the two-week build-up period. Xanax is a short-acting anti-anxiety drug that is usually used for storm anxiety or fireworks. An average weight greyhound dosage is 2mg every 8 hours. Xanax can also be used in conjunction with other anti-anxiety meds on a long-term and short-term basis. Valium can also be used but it is more of a sedative than an anti-anxiety drug.

 

It needs to be stressed that anti-anxiety drugs are not a miracle cure. They only allow the dog's brain to become available to accept training. Behavior modification needs to be started and continued once the meds have taken effect.

 

I also have questions about this adoption. I realize they have had this dog for an extended period and may feel they can't give him back (for whatever reason). But it sounds like they would rather have the dog destroy their house than get up an hour earlier to get him some much needed exercise. It just doesn't sound like a good fit to me.

 

I really hope they're not looking for drugs to be the 'miracle' cure.

[macoduck]

Since I live 1.5 hours away I don't know all the details. Since posting I've learned they had a previous greyhound who lived a good normal life.

I don't know their work hours but the greyhound person who lives near them is pushing them for a morning walk, however short. They've got a list of things to work on including a vet check, more exercise, medication, etc. - everything I had in my first post and them some.

 

The behavior began after moving to their current townhouse. He started getting stressed as they began packing. He stresses now when they pack for trips and for when the dog sitter packs up his stuff after staying overnight. He'll be getting a lot of interaction with the gh owner nearby, including walks with her greyhound.

 

I think we have a plan now. Just need to get their vet on board and the owners on board with training, etc. They know it will take more than drugs.

 

I've known of much worse SA situations. This is still fixable. He's very happy boy when he's out of that dang crate and they are home. I'll let you know of updates as I get them.

[45MPHK9]

I think the person helping with this situation might try to gently prepare the owners for the possibility that the dog might be happier and healthier in another situation, while a different dog might thrive in their home.

 

Yes, yes.

 

I feel so sorry for that dog.

[greysmom]

Since I live 1.5 hours away I don't know all the details. Since posting I've learned they had a previous greyhound who lived a good normal life.

I don't know their work hours but the greyhound person who lives near them is pushing them for a morning walk, however short. They've got a list of things to work on including a vet check, more exercise, medication, etc. - everything I had in my first post and them some.

 

The behavior began after moving to their current townhouse. He started getting stressed as they began packing. He stresses now when they pack for trips and for when the dog sitter packs up his stuff after staying overnight. He'll be getting a lot of interaction with the gh owner nearby, including walks with her greyhound.

 

I think we have a plan now. Just need to get their vet on board and the owners on board with training, etc. They know it will take more than drugs.

 

I've known of much worse SA situations. This is still fixable. He's very happy boy when he's out of that dang crate and they are home. I'll let you know of updates as I get them.

 

Makes me feel a bit better. Please keep us posted Ducky.

[Guest grey_dreams]

...it's usually 3g tablets once or twice a day.

 

 

 

That would be 3 milligrams (not 3 grams).

[a_daerr]

 

That would be 3 milligrams (not 3 grams).

 

Whoops!!!!!!! Thanks for catching that. Three grams probably would knock him out.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

My comment is this:

 

the owner says they do not have time to walk in the morning, they cannot do alone training because the dog instantly goes into destructive mode.

 

What do they think the drugs will do? Instantly fix all the problems? NOPE. The drugs are there so that you CAN accomplish the training. It would seem that they do not even want to put in the effort to help the situation, just take a pill and all will be fine...

[macoduck]

My comment is this:

 

the owner says they do not have time to walk in the morning, they cannot do alone training because the dog instantly goes into destructive mode.

 

What do they think the drugs will do? Instantly fix all the problems? NOPE. The drugs are there so that you CAN accomplish the training. It would seem that they do not even want to put in the effort to help the situation, just take a pill and all will be fine...

I don't think it's as bad as them thinking a pill will fix things. They know they are facing some real effort on their part. I'm pushing for the vet visit so make sure there's no damage to his mouth. For some reason they really had it in their brains that "greyhound love their crates" and didn't get that some don't. The greyhound person who is now helping them with this has experience and will not let the dog suffer. She'll push that he be returned if she feels it's in the best interest of the dog.

 

My last senior, Harold, came to be after being crated nearly 24/7. He was self-destructing. Fortunately he did fine at my house and never needed meds. So trust that I won't let this dog be ignored.

[Maddiesmom]

Many of you know Maddie's and my story of us dealing with SA I was a first time adopter at 34 when I went to the kennel to see the dogs I one I "thought" was placed on hold for me to see was not. so back into the kennel to see more dogs. I picked Maddie as she was a fawn girl and I love the fawn ones and she was the only dog not barking (little did I know that would change- she barks a lot but that is fine as she is usually telling me she has to go out) we took her out, she had just come in on a hauler an hour before I saw her, her back legs were shaking she was eating grass and she went up and sniffed a little girl who was staanding outside the pen. Perfect, we have a lot of kids in my subdivision. I played with her and placed her as adoption pending. fast forward to when I got her home, I understood that her life had changed from the kennel to my house. I slept in the living room the few few nights she was home. Did our alone training, taught her steps and other things. The it was back to work for me. Come to find out, she hated her crate, she ate 3 of them with her bad SA. my neighbor (and i live in a house) could her her whining. I tried everything, TV on, radio on, called the kennel for advice, used a DAP diffuser, doggy day camp, After the 3rd and final crate which she broke out of and was a wire one she met me at the backdoor with her tail wagging. I took a leap of faith, ditched the crate, used baby gates to keep her away from places she should not go in, closed doors and put her muzzle on. I was NOT returning her as this was fixable and she had bonded to me and vice versa. I did not want to put her on a drug, that was our last resort and we did have to put her on clomicalm for 2 months but Almost 8 years later, she has had an episode or two of SA, she is a relaxed dog who passed her TDI test with only 24 hour notice and the 2 minute test away from me- no problem. she is loved and fondled over everywhere she goes. She was just accepted as a pet therapy dog at Levine's Childrens Hospital after being on their waiting list for 3 years, she is a Paws to read dog and is a favorite at the retirement facility that we visit. Point is, it worked for us as I took the time to work with her. I walked her every monring and night for long periods and still do as we both love the walks

If these people are not committed to getting up a little earlier to walk their dog for a little longer to wear him out than are they really willing to help him? JMHO.

[inugrey]

I think we should all trust that the group is doing what is best for the dog and humans now that they are involved. I am glad you will get a vet involved for drugs. I am a proponent of these sorts of drugs to help the dog relax enough to be able to improve on the behavior.

 

I also think a xanax type of fast acting drug may be a good place to start. I'm sure the vet will make the proper recommendations for both the long term and fast acting drugs.

 

I have xanax and prozac for Zoe. She is also a fear based dog, so I wonder if something like chlomicalm or amitriptyline would be better for anxiety?

 

Also, if they are willing to stop using the crate that may help a whole lot. (And I'm a fan of crating).

[greysmom]

I think we should all trust that the group is doing what is best for the dog and humans now that they are involved. I am glad you will get a vet involved for drugs. I am a proponent of these sorts of drugs to help the dog relax enough to be able to improve on the behavior.

 

I also think a xanax type of fast acting drug may be a good place to start. I'm sure the vet will make the proper recommendations for both the long term and fast acting drugs.

 

I have xanax and prozac for Zoe. She is also a fear based dog, so I wonder if something like chlomicalm or amitriptyline would be better for anxiety?

 

Also, if they are willing to stop using the crate that may help a whole lot. (And I'm a fan of crating).

 

Prozac did nothing for my girl. There are several other long-term anti-anxiety drugs that you can try. I recommend you do some research before talking with your vet though - many are NOT familiar with off-label uses for human drugs. Amitriplytine has been getting some good reviews lately for use by dogs, and as I already stated, Paxil was what worked for us.

[GeorgeofNE]

Awww, Ducky, thanks for trying to help, but this post makes me terribly sad.

 

I hope it works out, or they see the light and let the dog go somewhere that getting up an hour early to get him tired out is a no brainer.

[Guest grey_dreams]

I would like to add that although some animals do well with Xanax, some have exactly the opposite reaction. For some, Xanax leads to total meltdowns and borderline psychotic behavior. So when using Xanax, please be aware that it might have adverse effects, and watch for first signs of abnormal behavior or aggressive behavior, and then stop giving Xanax.

[macoduck]

Thanks for everyone's advice and well wishes. I have been relaying the info to our very experienced group rep who happens to live very close to where these adopters moved to. She has a key to their home and is checking on this boy during the day.

[macoduck]

I've learned that he destructive behavior didn't start until they moved into the new home in December. That's when they started crating him more.

Since leaving him out of the crate at night this week he has been better during the day.

[Batmom]

That's good to hear, Ducky.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Thanks for everyone's advice and well wishes. I have been relaying the info to our very experienced group rep who happens to live very close to where these adopters moved to. She has a key to their home and is checking on this boy during the day.