Any Other Puppies With Constant Diarrhea?

[krissy]

UGH! I am at my wits end with Kili. Seriously, some days I am VERY tempted to just boot her out the door. Her urinary issues finally seem to be resolved after almost 10 grand. Great right? A month later she starts waking me up every week or two to go out in the middle of the night to have liquid diarrhea, several times in one night. Then the next morning she'll be fine. No problems for a couple days then repeat the cycle. Now she's not waking me up to go out but she's having soft serve consistency poop EVERY SINGLE DAY. This from a dog who 2 months ago had normal dog poop... not even "greyhound normal". Nice and firm.

 

I am so frustrated. She has been checked 3 times to be clean of parasites. I dewormed her for whips anyway just in case since those don't always show up on a fecal. I did a course of Flagyl with her with no results. I tried adding pumpkin to her diet which has always helped Summit on the rare occasion that he's been soft, but all that did was make her poop orange. She's on Forti Flora, my favourite probiotic, but I also tried her on Florentero as well. Neither has helped. I switched her from her Purina Veterinary Pediatric diet to the Royal Canin Intestinal Puppy with no effect. Yesterday I decided to switch her to a non-chicken based diet. Went out and bought a bag of TOTW Salmon Puppy Food (whatever they call it). Started it yesterday at about 20% of her total intake mixed with her Purina and Royal Canin. This morning in the first 3 hours after getting up she has had almost liquid diarrhea 3 times and she was almost liquid last night right before bed.

 

Anyone else go through this with a puppy? I am REALLY trying to avoid having to do expensive testing until absolutely necessary since we JUST went through that with her urinary problems. I am also REALLY trying to avoid having to do a total exclusion diet because she's in full training right now, obedience and agility starts in a month for her. I would love to try the IAMS "green bag" but she's a puppy so my alternative would be the IAMS puppy (I think that's a yellow bag).

 

ETA: I also tried to switch her to raw and that made things a million times worse. She woke me up 4 times in one night and then I came home at lunch to diarrhea all over her, the bedding, the crate, and the floor/wall around the crate.

Edited May 19, 2013 by krissy

[Batmom]

How old is she now? Could be she doesn't need puppy food anymore, or could get by with half and half puppy and adult. (BTW, I won't feed Royal Canin anything -- baaaaaaaaad experience some years back.)

 

What I would do: Worm with something that covers rounds and hooks at 2-3 week intervals; do 3-4 cycles. Feed soft-cooked white rice + cooked ground beef + calcium carbonate and NOTHING else (no treats, no meds other than required antibiotics/heartworm meds, no probiotics, NOTHING ELSE) for 3 days; if better, continue for another 3-5 days and then gradually start adding whatever's most important to you. Leave at least 3 days and preferably 5 between each thing you add. If you're training, you can get freeze-dried beef with no additives; costly but less than a vet visit .

 

Soft-cooked white rice: Add 30-50% more water than you'd use to feed people, and cook till all water absorbed. If you don't do this, it'll often go straight through the dog. Eeeeeeeeeeuw.

 

Panacur is nice for worming. Costly but it's pretty effective against giardia too.

 

If the rice + beef doesn't help, I'd probably get an abdominal x-ray if you haven't; if that's clear, I'd go to a straight protein rather than trying to guess which carb she might tolerate. I know folks here use potatoes, oatmeal, noodles, but I have had very poor results with most of those over 40 years and a bunch of dogs. The only one other than rice that I'll feed regularly is noodles. For protein, I like beef because it's readily available, has a reasonable number of calories and, while dogs can be allergic to it, allergy isn't all that common.

[Guest WhiteWave]

Yep. Joey does the same thing. It drives me completely nuts. Some days it will be firm, some days just liquid. Sometimes firm and liquid on the same day. And since he just ate my couch, his life expectancy just dropped very quickly so I might not have to deal with it much longer!

 

He does not have worms, has no other issues, just poop issues. Tomorrow I think I am going to go buy some slippery elm I used it for my Dobe and try it.

 

Pumpkin, psylium seed powder, probiotics, l-glutamine, yogurt, etc all tried and nothing worked. The one food Joey did best on is RedPaw 32K. Although the place I got it from just jumped the price up sky high. They are looking into and hopefully it might be a pricing error.

Edited May 19, 2013 by WhiteWave

[GreyPoopon]

Maybe try some Tylocine?

 

I haven't found Tylocine does much for food issues. Can help recovery from other things though. Like antibiotics used for UTIs.

 

I know you know this, but it's different when you're living through it: a gut can take a long long time to settle after getting out of whack.

[krissy]

How old is she now? Could be she doesn't need puppy food anymore, or could get by with half and half puppy and adult. (BTW, I won't feed Royal Canin anything -- baaaaaaaaad experience some years back.)

 

What I would do: Worm with something that covers rounds and hooks at 2-3 week intervals; do 3-4 cycles. Feed soft-cooked white rice + cooked ground beef + calcium carbonate and NOTHING else (no treats, no meds other than required antibiotics/heartworm meds, no probiotics, NOTHING ELSE) for 3 days; if better, continue for another 3-5 days and then gradually start adding whatever's most important to you. Leave at least 3 days and preferably 5 between each thing you add. If you're training, you can get freeze-dried beef with no additives; costly but less than a vet visit .

 

Soft-cooked white rice: Add 30-50% more water than you'd use to feed people, and cook till all water absorbed. If you don't do this, it'll often go straight through the dog. Eeeeeeeeeeuw.

 

Panacur is nice for worming. Costly but it's pretty effective against giardia too.

 

If the rice + beef doesn't help, I'd probably get an abdominal x-ray if you haven't; if that's clear, I'd go to a straight protein rather than trying to guess which carb she might tolerate. I know folks here use potatoes, oatmeal, noodles, but I have had very poor results with most of those over 40 years and a bunch of dogs. The only one other than rice that I'll feed regularly is noodles. For protein, I like beef because it's readily available, has a reasonable number of calories and, while dogs can be allergic to it, allergy isn't all that common.

 

Already tried all of this I think. Haven't x-rayed her yet because I am really trying not to go down that road again. Plus she just had multiple abdominal ultrasounds in the last few months for her urinary issues and I really can't imagine what could have come up in that time that would actually show up. IBD often doesn't even have ultrasound changes, definitely not radiographic. Even though I'm her vet I still have to pay for stuff or put it through insurance and the last thing I need is for her insurance coverage to drop because she has so many claims and then actually need it for something like a catastrophic injury. I tried rice only diet for 3 days with absolutely no improvement. And then she was driving me nuts in the house because I couldn't walk her, off leash her, or train her with just rice. It was an absolute nightmare. Diarrhea AND annoying ** disturber. Bad combination. Already deworming with Panacur for whips right now. Also dewormed with Strongid last time around (couple months ago). Haven't done a fecal culture yet because I'm 99% sure it'll be negative and it's expensive. But if this latest food switch doesn't work then I'm going to have to go to the culture as my next step.

 

I'm not sure if the issue is too much puppy food but she's only 9 months and I'm loathe to take her off puppy food that young when she's so active and so thin still (thankfully she's coming out of a growth spurt and filling out again so for a few weeks at least I can stop hearing about how I need to feed my dog).

 

Yep. Joey does the same thing. It drives me completely nuts. Some days it will be firm, some days just liquid. Sometimes firm and liquid on the same day. And since he just ate my couch, his life expectancy just dropped very quickly so I might not have to deal with it much longer!

 

He does not have worms, has no other issues, just poop issues. Tomorrow I think I am going to go buy some slippery elm I used it for my Dobe and try it.

 

Pumpkin, psylium seed powder, probiotics, l-glutamine, yogurt, etc all tried and nothing worked. The one food Joey did best on is RedPaw 32K. Although the place I got it from just jumped the price up sky high. They are looking into and hopefully it might be a pricing error.

 

Ugh! This is Kili, except lately it's just soft or softer, she's quit with the firm stool for several weeks now. Maybe greyhound puppies just do this? I don't know but it's irritating as all hell.

 

Maybe try some Tylocine?I haven't found Tylocine does much for food issues. Can help recovery from other things though. Like antibiotics used for UTIs.I know you know this, but it's different when you're living through it: a gut can take a long long time to settle after getting out of whack.

I was thinking of trying Tylosin with her but then if that doesn't work I won't have the option of doing a fecal culture until several weeks after the last dose. And I think the culture is probably my next step of choice in terms of diagnostics. Really don't want to end up back at the specialist for another scoping. That used up a lot of insurance coverage AND ate a hole in my bank account. Double whammy when I'm not doing the work myself.

[Batmom]

Worming: I would keep it up through another couple rounds.

 

Rice: There are dogs who don't get on with rice, alas. Try just ground beef, 85%-90% lean, cook till no longer pink. 55 lb Zema ate @ 1.2 lbs (precooked weight) per day but she was older and less active then.

 

Other foods: The more dogs I try to feed, the more commercial foods annoy me . Here, the ones that have worked for more than one dog without causing issues or deterioration over time are IAMS green bag, IAMS red bag, Purina ONE Sensitive Systems dry, Hills I/D canned, Purina EN canned. YMMV.

 

Xray: Well .... dogs eat things. And they can gulp down some weird thing outdoors or in, and you'll never notice. I know you know that . Facing your cost/insurance issues, I probably wouldn't x-ray either tho unless she showed some discomfort or started vomiting too. (I don't have insurance for the dogs, and a quick x-ray is pretty cheap at my vet.)

[Guest WhiteWave]

I don't think Joey even had one firm poop until he was 6 months old. It has been a roller coaster with trying to find something for him. I honestly think it is just b/c he is so high energy. The food just goes through so quickly. I notice my lazier dogs always have the firmer poop. He is digesting the food to a point or he would be a skeleton and his coat is nice and shiny. So I don't know what the solution is. If you find out, let me know!

[MaryJane]

The beef and rice are a great idea as that should sooth the GI tract. For getting the poop firmer --- try oatmeal which has plenty of fiber. All three of mine get oatmeal mixed with rice and hamburg in the morning - each gets over 1 cup but, I would not suggest starting with that much -- mix about 1/4 to 1/2 cup into the food in the morning and if within 24 hours the poop is not worse, then increase the amount each day until you are up to 1 cup. Important -- do the 5 minute type of oatmeal, not the instant. Also, make sure it is cooked for the full 5 minutes.

Edited May 19, 2013 by MaryJane

[RedHead]

I know you know this, but it's different when you're living through it: a gut can take a long long time to settle after getting out of whack.

 

 

Yep, been there done that. Not with Teague but my last dog who had serious digestive issues (plus pancreatitis when she was very young). From my experience, once the gut becomes inflammed and irritated or the gut bacteria is out of whack, any change in diet often exasperates the situation, and even foods which they can normally handle can cause issues. If you can find something bland to allow her gut to heal before switching things up, that would be ideal. I know for my old dog it was a matter of keeping fat and fibre relatively low (all of those fibre supplements and foods irritated her tract more) and moisture and protein higher. I used a sweet potato/beef recipe and some broths to settle down her system when needed. I also used digestive enzymes instead of probiotics. Probably not much help to you...but I did go through a year or two of this type of thing (plus bouts of pancreatitis in between) so I feel your pain. Things got better

Edited May 19, 2013 by RedHead

[Guest widowcali]

My Widow had that problem. She was a 2 or 3 time bounce when I got her. And I think most of the issues were her intestinal upsets. I must have had to steam clean my carpets every other month.

 

I tried everything: boiled chicken and white rice, adding yogurt and pumpkin to kibble, changing kibble multiple times from the best that Petsmart had to offer to the cheapest that Frys has to offer. Taking her for half hour walks 3 or 4 times a day to "empty her out". Cutting out all snacks. Everything!

 

It would all work for a month or two, and then back to brown water and liquid poo.

 

I was at my wits end also.

 

I finally went to one of those "specialty" dog stores. You know, where they stock holistic pet food, homeopathic pet remedies, totally organic pet grooming aids, books on how to massage your dachshunds back, cat litter hand shredded by elves in Ireland and sprinkled with fairy dust, etc.

 

One of their "pet health experts" walked me around the store and told me what worked for his intestinal oddity of a dog. We switched to completely grain free food and the occasional can of green tripe. Within a few days, less than a week, Widow was firmed up. And the gas was almost gone. It worked so good that my mother switched her dog to grain free and I started Brighid the Wonder Puppy on grain free the day I adopted her. Cali went grain free just to make it easier.

 

That was five years ago. Now, liquid poo only happens when Widow has eaten something out of the trash or human food, or when we travel. And I just hit her up with pumpkin to firm her back up.

[Batmom]

P.S. re cooking rice for a dog: You know it's soft enough for a dog when you can squash a grain *easily* between your fingers. If it's firmer than that, it's somewhat more likely to *cause* diarrhea.

[maggiespet]

Giardia is a wily bugger. My mutt pup had it for 8 months when we got him as a puppy. Months before it was "seen" in a SNAP test. And then it played hide-n-seek on further SNAPs. So I thought it was gone - but oh no. Just in a quiet part of the life cycle or something like that. Just a thought. Healthy poo vibes coming for Kili.

[cleptogrey]

 

have you checked and rechecked for the parasites listed below??? i believe that coccidiosis can also be transmitted thru bird feces as well, unless there is another(sure there is ) parasite out there. often testing doesn't show the problem, one can test inbetween egg cycles. i also agree w/ batmom 150%-over cooked white rice. i have found a short cut to boiling the chopped beef- glass container/water/beef/microwave- 3-5 minutes it's done. i stop it 1/2 way, mush it up w/ my hand then finish it off. i went thru a very similar thing w/ my male as a young pup- giardia is what he was treated for. his littermate picked up ciccidiosis, curious little buggers sniffing around and eating and drinking what they shouldn't!

 

Coccidiosis-

This parasitic disease of the liver and intestinal tract is common in rabbits. Dogs contract the disease by ingesting substances contaminated by feces from an infected rabbit, such as food or water. Some dogs display symptoms including loss of appetite, bloody diarrhea and dehydration, while other dogs have no symptoms whatsoever. A dog can also carry coccidiosis and transmit it to other dogs, particularly puppies, which are most at risk from dehydration and diarrhea. The disease can be treated with sulfa drugs, although most dogs eventually develop antibodies that create immunity.

 

Giardiasis

Rabbits carry the parasite giardia duodenalis as part of their intestinal flora, and generally do not experience symptoms apart from occasional diarrhea. The parasite is secreted in their feces, however, and if a dog ingests the feces or consumes contaminated food or water, it may develop giardiasis as a result. Once inside the dog, the parasite makes its way into the intestine, causing diarrhea that is frothy, greasy, contains mucus or has a particularly foul odor.

[krissy]

She has been checked for parasites to the point that it's becoming a bit of a waste of money to run them. They are always clean. Which isn't to say she really is clean. Whipworm can be a bugger to find. So I'm deworming her anyway.

 

At first I thought it was because the weather warmed up so she was out on the trails more and was maybe getting into stuff but there was really no correlation with when she would be loose and when we'd been walking. Now she's always loose.

 

Batmom - that's a good list of foods, but I don't think any are approved for growth. I'll probably just go back to rice and for treats I'm going to take ground beef and mix it with oatmeal. Then I bake it and cut it up. Hopefully if I do that for a few days things will improve. I don't know though. Last time wasn't helpful.

[GreytHoundPoet]

What has her breeder said/recommended? I hate that you have had all these issues.

 

I don't really have any advice. Both of my puppies and all of my adults have been firm, well-formed poopers. The only time we had runny stool was if we tried a treat or something that did not agree with them but, for the most part, we have iron stomachs here.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GreytHoundPoet

[cleptogrey]

when felix first went to the vet i asked about food, since it was quite some time since i had a puppy in the house. the answer i received was use an adult food, the new findings are that there is no need for puppy food. as i researched the food thing- amount of protien etc many of the readings about large breed dogs reflected the attitude of a moderate protien- around 22-4%, moderate fat-around 14%. felix had puppy food when he came to me at 7 weeks, finished the bag and he went to adult food. nice slow growth, took quite a while to fill out and finally reach his mature height and weight- 78-9#(at 5years of age). that adolescent period can be a nightmare weight wise, sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't.

[Batmom]

I would check once or twice and then just worm the dog a couple cycles. Especially if the dog is under 2 yo or has lived wild/on the street or was a racer. Other eggs can be hard to find, too, and can sometimes misbehave (shrivel, disintegrate, etc.) during the float procedure.

[4My2Greys]

Since your at your wits end I'll suggest trying Manuka honey. It has helped resolve Nadir's bowel issues more than a few times. I just give a couple of teaspoons before his meal and some in between until things look better. If it doesn't start improving in a couple of days I usually get Flagyl from my vet. The nice thing about trying Manuka honey is they can't build up a resistance to it like they can with overuse of antibiotics.

[tbhounds]

Why not mix some canned W/D into her kibble??

[a_daerr]

When Truman was younger, he got IAMS yellow bag (puppy formula) kibble. We also mixed in either IAMS 'green can' or Nutro Chicken and Oatmeal for Sensitive Puppy Stomachs. That seemed to do the trick. Before that, it was all liquid poop. We tried Science Diet, TOTW, Natural Balance, and Diamond Naturals before settling on IAMS.

 

The Nutro is a little hard to find, but here's what the can looks like.

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Choice-Dog-Chicken-Oatmeal/dp/B003E746F6/ref=sr_1_11?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1369003884&sr=1-11&keywords=Nutro+chicken+oatmeal+puppy

[GreyPoopon]

I was thinking of trying Tylosin with her but then if that doesn't work I won't have the option of doing a fecal culture until several weeks after the last dose. And I think the culture is probably my next step of choice in terms of diagnostics. Really don't want to end up back at the specialist for another scoping. That used up a lot of insurance coverage AND ate a hole in my bank account. Double whammy when I'm not doing the work myself.

Interesting. I don't think my vet has ever mentioned discontinuing Tylocine before a fecal culture.

 

We just did one, in fact. Reams of clostridium. Counts so high that the lab had trouble doing the toxin assay (negative). Dog is now on Metronidazole and Tylocine. Still not doing well, but at least now eating thanks to pred and Stanozolol.

 

I understand about the scoping. Horrifically expensive and the prep is awful.

[krissy]

Interesting. I don't think my vet has ever mentioned discontinuing Tylocine before a fecal culture.

 

We just did one, in fact. Reams of clostridium. Counts so high that the lab had trouble doing the toxin assay (negative). Dog is now on Metronidazole and Tylocine. Still not doing well, but at least now eating thanks to pred and Stanozolol.

 

I understand about the scoping. Horrifically expensive and the prep is awful.

 

In theory if the animal is on an antibiotic and you get negative cultures... you see where I'm going. Of course if you get a positive result then that's great, but how do you know the negative is truly negative and not just that the antibiotic has knocked the pathogen load down low enough that it doesn't get detected. Then you're not sure. Which sucks.

[GreyPoopon]

In theory if the animal is on an antibiotic and you get negative cultures... you see where I'm going.

Yup. I see.

 

Not sure that's ever been a real problem here though, since if I've already tried Tylocine and the dog isn't responding, the pathogen load is probably still high.

 

Will certainly review it with my vet though. Might help with future problems.

[Batmom]

I may have misunderstood. Currently she's having soft serve but not frequent diarrhea? How soft -- formed or completely unformed? If normal in frequency and at least somewhat formed, then it may indeed be just a matter of food, and you probably want something with more or different fiber.

[krissy]

She is not having overt diarrhea right now. Some days are worse than others but it is never as firm as it used to be. Some days are soft formed and other days are soft serve.