Osteo Thread Part Vi

[Charlies_Dad]

I am at a loss for words to help comfort you. I just cannot believe you have three pups with Osteo, that is beyond unfair and heartbreaking. I am so sorry. As for your question concerning environment, I doubt it is related and more than likely it's genetic. There are certainly some sires that throw off Osteo more than others (based on recorded diagnosis) but it all goes back to breeding IMHO.

[TwiggysMom]

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions. Must remove head from sand and face this. We will give the medicines. I must accept this and do what's best. Today seems like a good day to start. I can look at him and tell something's wrong. Thinking perhaps it's from the anesthesia for xrays yesterday or maybe sore from being positioned.

 

He doesn't mind the vet and when doing his former chemo and treatments, he would get out of the car and start wagging his tail. Of course he loves the attention he gets too.

 

I am so thankful for all your help.

I agree with what others have said, don't be hesitant to use the pain meds. I hope Ben is feeling more comfortable. You're right that Ben could have been experiencing soreness or general "off-ness" from the anesthesia and/or positioning.

 

Hi everyone - just asking for kind thoughts today. some of you may remember that in September we had our first greyhound diagnosed with osteo and a leg amputated. The in October the same thing with our second greyhound.

 

We have a third greyhound who has been limping for about 2 months. Initial xrays did not show osteo and vets thought arthritis. Drugs in the last month for arthritis have not helped and limp getting slowly worse. Yesterday he had a deep red spot on his skin about his leg he is limping on, so took him back to vet today for this (and also because limp not better). New Xrays show a change in the bone, so vet now thinks Osteo for our third greyhound as well. We are being referred to the vet specialist that did our first 2 surgeries to review the xrays.

 

I'm not sure I can handle making these decisions for a third dog in 4 months, and likely won't see the vet specialist until Monday. This greyhound (Davy) is large - 95 lbs, so not sure we can help him through leg amputation as cannot physically lift him into/out of cars, etc.

 

So my other thought - has there been any investigative work into environmental or other variables that might contribute to osteo? I know the incidence rate in greyhounds is high, but 3 greyhounds diagnosed in 4 months seems much higher than the breed rates.

What you've been handed is unimaginable to me. I am so sorry.

 

It must be tempting to think there is something that could have triggered osteo in your 3 hounds, but honestly I think it is just truly awful bad luck. Most of my pets have died of cancer (varying types), and a number of years ago I lamented to my (then) vet about why they all got cancer, and he said it was just a combination of bad luck and (in the case of my pets to that point) old age. That there was nothing I could have done to prevent it, and certainly nothing I did to cause it. That made me feel a little better.

 

Sending good thoughts for strength and comfort for all of you.

[MachosMom]

Finally getting time to check in here on everyone. ***Hugs to all*** I am sorry to hear about Gia. I know Macho was probably one of the first in line to greet her.

 

Hope Ben is having a good day. Everyone here has already laid out more than I could advise wise.

 

Jenbush123 - I can't even fathom that. It's a constant what if in the back of my head with our two girls. One who is related to Macho. Three so close together is mind blowing to me.Sending you strength as well.

[Guest jenbush123]

Davy made it through surgery - last update from the vet is that he is up and barking (not surprising!!) and doing well. I think they are trying to get him out of there quickly since he is barking and probably disturbing all the other dogs! He had surgery yesterday and they want him to come home tomorrow, which I think is a bit early, but glad he is doing well.

 

Thanks for all the kind thoughts!

[Charlies_Dad]

That is great Davy is out of surgery! Pls keep us updated as you can and I am sure you will be tired taking care of him and your other pups over the coming days so be easy on yourself.

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Hi all, unfortunately I have to join this thread. Daisy was just diagnosed and I am feeling very fragile, so I haven't wanted to post, but I need some advice. I have dealt with other cancers and kidney disease, but never osteo.

 

Here are my questions:

In 2 weeks, she has lost about 10 pounds despite eating the same exact amount of food. I have increased her food from 4 cups to 6 cups a day. The vet said increased metabolism is normal as the cancer is zapping all her energy. How much do you all feed and how much have you increased? Is there something you supplement?

 

She has also increased shedding a lot for the same reason as above. Is there something topical to help this? Daisy is diabetic and has allergies. It's difficult to give her anything orally, so that's why I ask about topical solutions.

 

The vet put her on Deramaxx. I asked for Gabapentin since I have seen it on this forum, but he said it's for nerve pain. He didn't prescribe it. Thoughts on that?

 

Last, how much pain control can I hope for? With the pain med, she still favors the leg. Is it possible to get it to where she walks/stands normally or is that too much to hope for? I just want to know that I have given her the optimum amount of pain management.

 

Ok, sorry for all the questions. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Edited January 21, 2013 by 2dogs4cats

[45MPHK9]

The vet put her on Deramaxx. I asked for Gabapentin since I have seen it on this forum, but he said it's for nerve pain. He didn't prescribe it. Thoughts on that?

Find another vet. Gabapentin was a great addition to the Deramaxx and Tramadol Bee Wiseman took throughout her osteo battle. Nearly every dog in this osteo thread has taken Gabapentin to help with the awful pain of osteo.

 

I'm so sorry for this diagnosis.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Tricia is right. You need a referral to an oncologist to discuss managing pain for Daisy. If your vet is blowing off gabapentin, he's not going to be much use to you. Or Daisy.

 

Gabapentin disrupts pain signals to the brain. It's one of the safest, most effective, and least complicated pain relievers you can get--doesn't react badly to other drugs.

[NeylasMom]

Hi all, unfortunately I have to join this thread. Daisy was just diagnosed and I am feeling very fragile, so I haven't wanted to post, but I need some advice. I have dealt with other cancers and kidney disease, but never osteo.

 

Here are my questions:

In 2 weeks, she has lost about 10 pounds despite eating the same exact amount of food. I have increased her food from 4 cups to 6 cups a day. The vet said increased metabolism is normal as the cancer is zapping all her energy. How much do you all feed and how much have you increased? Is there something you supplement?

 

She has also increased shedding a lot for the same reason as above. Is there something topical to help this? Daisy is diabetic and has allergies. It's difficult to give her anything orally, so that's why I ask about topical solutions.

 

The vet put her on Deramaxx. I asked for Gabapentin since I have seen it on this forum, but he said it's for nerve pain. He didn't prescribe it. Thoughts on that?

 

Last, how much pain control can I hope for? With the pain med, she still favors the leg. Is it possible to get it to where she walks/stands normally or is that too much to hope for? I just want to know that I have given her the optimum amount of pain management.

 

Ok, sorry for all the questions. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Regarding the weight loss, google "Cachexia". I haven't really heard of many pups on here having it, but that may be what you are dealing with and may help you find some options for helping her gain that weight back.

 

Regarding the Gabapentin, check out this article on pain management wtih osteo that is linked to in teh first post of this thread: article and perhaps pass it on to your vet (nerve pain IS part of osteo pain). Then promptly find yourself an oncologist who can better help you manage Daisy's pain and tell you about all of your options, including radiation and IV pamidronate.

 

Is far as whether you can get the pain completely controlled, it depends on how far progressed Daisy's osteo is, but yes, it may be possible. Also worth noting that osteo is reportedly very painful so if your pup is showing signs of pain, it is definitely not controlled. Generally, a combination of Tramadol, an NSAID, and Gabapentin is what works best for most dogs.

 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

Edited January 21, 2013 by NeylasMom

[TwiggysMom]

I am so sorry to hear about Daisy.

 

Also, I agree that Deramaxx is entirely insufficient to treat pain from osteo. It certainly is an effective part of pain management, but should not be the sole line of defense.

 

Many general practice vets don't seem to be very familiar with osteo. I would also strongly encourage you to find a veterinary oncologist who is very familiar with osteo. I'm not sure what part of IL you are in, but I might be able to suggest one or two, if you are in N/NE IL. The one I see (Dr. Hintermeister) is extremely well-versed in osteo & greyhounds, and is very inexpensive (like half the cost of my regular vet) - I give him a very high recommendation. However, he will be more likely to push for amputation over palliative care if he feels a dog is a candidate for the surgery. (didn't matter to me, Twiggy was already a tripod and finished iv chemo when we went to him, but this was an issue for one person who went to him about 10 years ago).

 

You also have radiation and pamidronate treatments as good components of palliatiave care.

 

Sending hugs for you and Daisy. I know this is hard on both of you, and I'm hoping you can find a good mix of treatments to keep her happy and comfortable for a good while longer.

 

 

jenbush123: I'm glad Davy came out of surgery well! It sounds like he is probably home by now, and I'm sure you've got you hands very full. I'm sending good healing thoughts for Davy, and hope to hear a good update when you're able!

[JJNg]

Others have already addressed the issue of gabapentin, and I agree completely. Even though it's for nerve pain, I've found that it helps tremendously for any severely painful condition. Nerves are involved in the transmission of pain signals, regardless of the source of pain.

 

I also noticed that you said Daisy is diabetic. Has she had her blood sugar checked recently? Weight loss is possible with cancer, but not something we see a lot of osteosarcoma. It's also possible that the cancer is interfering with her diabetic regulation.

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Tricia- this wasn't my normal vet, he did the x-ray as he is well versed regarding GHs and he could do the x-ray without meds. I am going to go back to my normal vet which I don't know what her suggestion will be, but I want to be able to speak intelligently about it. I didn't push the first vet as I really had no idea what I was talking about. It's just I have seen it many times on GT. A specialist may be in order, I don't know. I do like my normal vet as she is really open to whatever I ask for as long as it's medically sound. To be conitnued.

 

Jen- thank you for the info regarding cachexia. I looked it up and it relates to glucose, so makes sense that Daisy would have it due to her diabetes.

 

Wendy - looks like that vet is in Grayslake which be doable for me. Thank you for the info.

 

Jennifer- Yes, I check her blood sugar at least twice a day and more if needed. Actually her regulation hasn't been too bad, but there is definitely something going on that probably relates to the diabetes. I think diabetes is somewhat rare in GHs, so another "twist" for Daisy's condition.

 

I will definitely make sure I get her on a good med regimen, including Gabpentin. I was pretty sure she needed it.

[krissn333]

Where are you in IL?

Oh just saw your reply to Wendy saying Grayslake is doable. I'm on the border of IA/IL in the Quad Cities, if you were closer to here I'd recommend our vet in a heartbeat

 

I do not have firsthand experience with Gabapentin as we weren't hearing much about it when my I had my first osteo pup. He did have some great pain relief from pamidronate infusions, done every 28 days. He was also on Deramaxx and tramadol. His tramadol dose was always light because it made him a little bit restless and weird. I agree though if Daisy is having pain, Deramaxx isn't doing the job. It's an important component of pain management, but the gabapentin, from what I've read from others here, will help a ton.

[RaineysMom]

Tricia- this wasn't my normal vet, he did the x-ray as he is well versed regarding GHs and he could do the x-ray without meds. I am going to go back to my normal vet which I don't know what her suggestion will be, but I want to be able to speak intelligently about it. I didn't push the first vet as I really had no idea what I was talking about. It's just I have seen it many times on GT. A specialist may be in order, I don't know. I do like my normal vet as she is really open to whatever I ask for as long as it's medically sound. To be conitnued.

 

Jen- thank you for the info regarding cachexia. I looked it up and it relates to glucose, so makes sense that Daisy would have it due to her diabetes.

 

Wendy - looks like that vet is in Grayslake which be doable for me. Thank you for the info.

 

Jennifer- Yes, I check her blood sugar at least twice a day and more if needed. Actually her regulation hasn't been too bad, but there is definitely something going on that probably relates to the diabetes. I think diabetes is somewhat rare in GHs, so another "twist" for Daisy's condition.

 

I will definitely make sure I get her on a good med regimen, including Gabpentin. I was pretty sure she needed it.

 

I highly recommend the Veterinary Specialty Clinic in Deefield, IL. We took Nube there and got top quality care. Here's a link: http://www.vetspecialty.com/

 

so sorry you are going through so much with your Daisy

[Guest jenbush123]

Davy is doing well - still has a bit of swelling in his remaining front leg. Still a yelp here and there we he gets up or moves wrong, we increased his Tramadol yesterday from 1 pill 3X per day, to 2 pills 3X per day with advice from vet we can go up to 4 pills if we need to (50mg each). Davy weighs ~95 Lbs. He seems to be responding to the Tramadol better than the Gabapentin - which is the exact opposite of my other two dogs, but whatever keeps him happy and out of pain. Bruising is looking much better and he is back to some of his old tricks - including steal food from the other dogs bowls in the middle of the night!

Edited January 22, 2013 by jenbush123

[krissn333]

Haven't heard anything from Mary Jo lately...wondering how Spud is doing...

[Zoolady]

Update on Ben

 

It was time for a three month checkup after we discontinued everything except the Rimadyl occasionally. He went for xrays last Wednesday and his hip has deteriorated immensely. A week before the appointment we also noticed a swelling in that area which turned out to be a tumor. He was given a pamidronate treatment. Small nodules were also discovered in his lungs.

 

The new oncologist says he has two to four months before the cancer in the lungs will interfere with his quality of life.

 

Since the pamidronate, the tumor is growing. The same thing happened with our Wonder. One pamidronate treatment and the golfball sized shoulder tumor went to the size of a baseball. I am now questioning the continuation of that treatment for Ben although his hip looked like swiss cheese.

 

He is now on 75 mg of Rimadyl twice a day, Gabapentin 100 mg once a day and is up to 4, 50 mg of Tramadol spread throughout the day (breakfast lunch and dinner times). We were told we can go up to 2 pills every 8 hours so 6 a day.

 

The new oncologist is recommending radiation for pain control but his original oncologist that we loved said he is not a candidate for radiation because of the closeness to his organs. The new one wants to do four treatments a week apart at a cost of $2,500 to $3,000 (he made it a point to tell me). We have insurance but I don't think we should go for it. He says it won't change the outcome no matter what we do and we're looking at two to four months of life left.

 

Ben has lost some body mass but weighed 69.3 pounds last week. We made a batch of satin balls that we are adding to his food.

 

His appetite is great, his coat still glistens and he is acting okay. The only thing he doesn't do any more which I miss terribly is get on the bed. I miss the snuggling at night and the cuddling on the weekends when he put his head on my pillow and we'd both go back to sleep after Scott got up.

 

We have our regular vet lined up to come to the house when it's time and hopefully there won't be any emergency.

 

His quality of life is still excellent with the exception of the bed. He still gets on the couch at night to watch tv with us.

 

Any thoughts on what we should or shouldn't be doing now?

[4My2Greys]

[quote name="Zoolady" post="5428490" timestamp="1358902730"

 

Any thoughts on what we should or shouldn't be doing now?

 

Aside from increasing the gabapentin for pain control, I would just enjoy and treasure every moment you have with him.

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Ok, so my regular vet gave me Gabapentin 300 mg tabs for 2x per day, so 600 mg per day. Seems like a lot? Thoughts?

[NeylasMom]

Ok, so my regular vet gave me Gabapentin 300 mg tabs for 2x per day, so 600 mg per day. Seems like a lot? Thoughts?

Gabapentin should really be dosed every 8 hours, not every 12 because of it's shorter half-life. There have been discussions about this previously and I've posted links to provide evidence of this (and Jjng, the vet who posts in here has corroborated it as well). If you search H&M for "Gabapentin" you should be able to find it if you're interested.

 

300 mg 3x/day is certainly within the tolerable limits for most dogs, but I would want to start with something lower as it's been noted that starting lower and gradually increasing over a couple of days seems to lessen or eliminate the side effects (typically sleepiness or wooziness). It's easily obtainable in 100 mg capsules from a human pharmacy if you want to get them instead.

 

Barbara, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to you earlier. I have honestly never heard of pamidronate causing tumor growth, that seems very strange to me, but Ben's case is a bit different. Your medication doses sound reasonable except for the Gabapentin again for the reasons I just mentioned. Unless there is a particular time of day that you feel he needs particular pain management, dosing only once per day isn't going to cut it. And generally I think it's better to maintain a constant level of any pain medication in the bloodstream in the case of chronic pain like this. So I would go to 100 mg Gabapentin 3x/day and you may find that you can cut the Tramadol back to just 1 tablet 3x/day to keep things a little simpler and give yourself more wiggle room tehre. You certainly also have more wiggle room with the Gabapentin, but I'm not as familiar with pain management for lung mets so am not sure which would be more likely to be helpful. I think the satin balls are a good addition to his diet if he tolerates them. I hope that helps, and I'm sorry that things seem to be progressing more with Ben.

[KF_in_Georgia]

According to my vet, my 65-pound boy could safely take 900mg of Gabapentin a day. I got a prescription for the 100mg dose (in the U.S., 100mg is available in a filled capsule that you can't split; 300mg is in a pill, I think). The 100mg prescription can be filled at any drug store.

 

Are the 300 mg in a hard tablet you can split? Because you could give 150mg four times a day to spread out the dosage the way OSU suggests, and still not go over what your vet has prescribed. And meanwhile, you could ask your vet for a new script for 100mg capsules. And the 150mg four times a day might not land on Daisy like a ton of bricks.

 

Expect it to take a couple of days for the gabapentin to build up in Daisy's system to be really effective.

 

(Gabapentin is a common generic and is on the inexpensive-drugs list at most pharmacies.)

Edited January 23, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[TwiggysMom]

jenbush124, it sounds like Davy is doing quite well overall, so that's great news! Nothing like a little naughtiness to make you all feel better right now!

 

Mary, I'm glad you've got gabapentin available for Daisy now. You've gotten good advice on how best to manage the dosages. For additional reference, Twiggy (58.5lb pre-amp, 53.5lb post) was recently started on 200 mg gabapentin 3x/day, 50mg tramadol 2x/day - and that was just for some severe muscle pain. (It was injury-related, and she is off all meds now). We started this cold turkey with no side effects whatsoever.

 

Zoolady, It is heartwarming to hear that you all have such great quality time together still, but of course I am sad to hear that it sounds like his cancer is progressing. I don't have any advice on whether to proceed with either the radiation or pamidronate treatments, but maybe OSU would have an opinion based on his particular circumstances. It sounds like both of those treatments are sort of a paradox for Ben's situation. I wish there were clearer decisions to make.

 

 

Brief Twiggy update: her soft tissue injury seems to be fully resolved, and I'm slowly building her activity levels back up. We went to the dog beach on Saturday (before the frigid weather hit), and she got in a little bit of reckless romping! In a couple weeks I'll take her back for more x-rays on her right hind leg to see how the lesions are progressing (or hopefully not progressing!).

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Hmmm...I am not sure I will be able to dose anything more than twice a day due to her Insulin. Anything between meals can throw her sugar off and her meals are 12 hours apart. It's complicated with her diabetes and I don't even have her regulated yet with the addition of the one pain pill. I will have to start with the 2x per day and see how it goes.

[JJNg]

Both gabapentin and tramadol can be given without food, so if you can pill her, it shouldn't interfere with her diabetes if you end up needing to go to 3x/day.

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Both gabapentin and tramadol can be given without food, so if you can pill her, it shouldn't interfere with her diabetes if you end up needing to go to 3x/day.

 

It's not the food, it's the drug itself that can cause high sugar. The Deramaxx is already throwing her readings off the chart even with increased insulin. Gabapentin side effects list high blood sugar. Going to have to see how it goes, a lot of moving parts.....