Osteo Thread Part Vi

[KF_in_Georgia]

Got up to 100% humidity today; averaged 81%.Temps were lower 70s today, and it reached 70 inside. I've got the fan on now. Tomorrow will be cooler, and it'll be in the low 40s tonight and tomorrow night.

[Guest FawnFan]

Glad to hear Fritz is doing really well!

 

Sorry to hear Sam was having a tough time with the weather the other night. I hope he is better now and still eating his kibble.

 

An update for us, last evening, Gunney and I went to see the acupuncturist. He did better than I expected. Of course he was all worked up, nervous and panting. They put us in the "grieving" or "good-bye" room where there is a couch and a chair. They had these really cushy, bean-baggy type of beds down on the floor covered with a pretty thick blanket. Gunner walked over the beds on the floor a couple of times and then decided the couch was better for him.

 

When the Vet finally came in, she needled the calming points first (top of head, middle between the ears and then one behind each ear) and eventually he seemed to calm down a level or so. I noticed a difference which was great for him. She also needled his appetite stimulate points too. We then talked about Chinese herbs. We left it at, I would get back to her about the next appointment and the herbs.

 

Has anyone used Chinese herbs for their osteo hounds? What other herbal treatments has anyone used and where can I look for more info? Or should I just go with what the acupuncturist recommends?

 

I will also say I noticed a difference in his appetite too since we've been back from the Vet. He hasn't given us as much of a problem eating. Last night's bedtime feeding went really well. This morning he ate without much trouble too. Granted he got steak and mashed potatoes this morning again yet he was eager and ready to eat. And it seems we now have a spoiled hound too. He doesn't get up from his bed, he expects all meals to be delivered there now.

 

Thanks again everyone for your help. Hope everyone has a great day today!

 

ETA: improved appetite from acupuncture

Edited April 2, 2013 by FawnFan

[NeylasMom]

I used chinese meds for Neyla when she had osteo. I think the one we used was called Max's Formula, it's a general cancer formula. We also had one geared specifically toward the bone, I believe it's called Bone Stasis, but it seemed to cause her GI issues so we never got up to the full dose. There's a third blend that my vet and I discussed that is often part of a cancer protocol that boosts immune health, but we also didn't feel it was appropriate for Neyla at the time so we just basically stuck with the one.

 

At one point I found a really nice summary of which chinese herbs to use for which ailments and why and it included details per type of cancer, but I haven't been able to "refind" it.

Edited April 2, 2013 by NeylasMom

[Guest FawnFan]

Thanks Jen for your reply. The Vet and I spoke about Bone Stasis and another one, which I can't remember the name of now. I think it was another "stasis" one. I'm going to ask my acupuncturist on Thursday if she has any recommendations and then go from there.

 

Thanks again!

Jean

[TwiggysMom]

I'm glad to hear that Gunner's acupuncture visit went well and that it seems to have positively impacted him! I'm also really happy to hear that Fritz is feeling great!

 

Hopefully, the weather is better for Sam today.

 

I'll add to the comments about Tramadol tasting bad. I once brushed my finger against part of a tablet, and then ate a bite of something (forgetting to wash my hands); that whole bite tasted awful, and the taste stuck in my mouth and throat for quite a while. I can't imagine how awful it must taste to actually eat one! Twiggy is my super pill-taker. One time a tramadol fell out of what I was using to hide it in, and she gamely tried to eat the pill up off the floor - she couldn't bear to do it, but she really tried!

[Guest BaxtersMom]

Hello everyone...just an update on Baxter. We took him back to the vet a few weeks ago. The cancer in his front leg has gotten worse, but still has not spread to any other parts of his body. His back legs are getting weaker every day from the stress of being 3-legged. He is getting 2 tabs tramadol 3x per day and 1.5 tabs Rimadyl 1x per day, but these meds don't seem to be making any difference in his pain level. We also had him on Gabapentin for 21 days with no real difference either. His appetite is still good, and he's still a very happy boy, but when he looks at me, I can tell he's wondering, why won't it stop hurting? He can't walk very far any more, so daily walks are out. I wonder what the quality of his life is, in his eyes. I don't know what else to do for him at this point.

[greysmom]

What dose of Gabapentin was Baxter on? Most vets do not dose high enough or often enough. An average size greyhound can have up to 300 mg every 8 hours for pain relief.

[Guest BaxtersMom]

only 100mg once a day

[KF_in_Georgia]

No once-a-day dose of gabapentin is sufficient; the drug doesn't last that long in the dog's system. I'd start with 100mg gabapentin every 8 hours. After a day and a half or so (when I'm sure it's not making him too groggy), I'd go to 200mg every 8 hours. Don't actually expect to see any results for about 48 hours; it takes gabapentin a while to build up in the dog's system.

 

From an earlier thread:

 

Gabapentin references for your vet: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/3730018, which says "Gabapentin is well absorbed in rats, dogs and in humans, with maximum blood levels, reached within 1-3 h after peroral administration."

 

And (long link) here. That link mostly discusses the use of gabapentin to prevent seizures (what it was first developed for), but gives info on the half-life and briefly discuses its use for pain.

 

You're going to want to discuss this with your vet, but please ask the vet to do some research on this. Many dogs on here take as much as 900mg of gabapentin a day.

Edited April 3, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest FawnFan]

I just have to say, you all are great with these dosages. I told the acupuncturist about the separating out the 300 mg/day dosage into 3 100 mg/day and she said that would probably be fine. She's not the primary so I need to follow up with the primary Vet. Yet it is just awesome that there are "experts" on here who can help us "newbies" with these meds.

 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Guest BaxtersMom]

Thanks for all the info on the Gabapentin. I'll call my vet tomorrow to see what they can do.

PS - the black and white greyhound in your picture looks like my previous grey, Bubba Brown. I miss him terribly :L(

[45MPHK9]

only 100mg once a day

That dosage would surely explain the fact that the Gabapentin didn't make a difference for your dog. 62 pound Bee Wiseman took 900mg a day in addition to Deramaxx and Tramadol. For a little while, that dosage and combination of drugs helped us manage her awful pain. Her limp eventually returned, and that was when we decided to let her go. We knew that she was really hurting, and we didn't want that.

 

So sorry that Baxter is fighting this dreadful disease.

[Guest BaxtersMom]

No once-a-day dose of gabapentin is sufficient; the drug doesn't last that long in the dog's system. I'd start with 100mg gabapentin every 8 hours. After a day and a half or so (when I'm sure it's not making him too groggy), I'd go to 200mg every 8 hours. Don't actually expect to see any results for about 48 hours; it takes gabapentin a while to build up in the dog's system.

 

From an earlier thread:

 

Gabapentin references for your vet: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/3730018, which says "Gabapentin is well absorbed in rats, dogs and in humans, with maximum blood levels, reached within 1-3 h after peroral administration."

 

And (long link) here. That link mostly discusses the use of gabapentin to prevent seizures (what it was first developed for), but gives info on the half-life and briefly discuses its use for pain.

 

You're going to want to discuss this with your vet, but please ask the vet to do some research on this. Many dogs on here take as much as 900mg of gabapentin a day.

Thank you for all the info on the Gabapentin. I'll call myvet tomorrow to see what they can do.

PS - the black and white grey in your picture reminds me of our previous Grey, who passed on in 2005, Bubba Brown. I miss him :L(

[Guest BaxtersMom]

That dosage would surely explain the fact that the Gabapentin didn't make a difference for your dog. 62 pound Bee Wiseman took 900mg a day in addition to Deramaxx and Tramadol. For a little while, that dosage and combination of drugs helped us manage her awful pain. Her limp eventually returned, and that was when we decided to let her go. We knew that she was really hurting, and we didn't want that.

 

So sorry that Baxter is fighting this dreadful disease.

Sorry I'm posting in so many different places. I haven't quite got the hang of how this works yet.

Did you get the Deramaxx from your vet? Was it expensive?

Baxter weighs about 75 pounds, so I'm sure he could tolerate a bigger / more frequent dosage of the Gabapentin.

His limp is awful, so I'm sure he's in a great deal of pain, and it breaks my heart to see him like that.

[45MPHK9]

We did get the Deramaxx (75mg) from the vet. I could only find one receipt with the price on it. Seven tablets cost us $23. This was the direct from the vet price, so I'm sure that price is quite high. I know that Bee Wiseman took this drug everyday for the 8 weeks she lived with osteo.

 

It's awful to watch them limp or cry out when they get off a dog bed. Osteo is a cruel disease.

 

Sending you and Baxter a hug.

[krissn333]

Okay, my artemisinin and curcumin arrived!

 

Help me with this...artemisinin once a day, away from food containing iron. Give the curcumin at the same time? I have never used curcumin before.

 

Any issues to watch for with curcumin?

 

Methinks I need to do some reading, but I'm sure someone here has a quick answer...

 

Fritz is a happy guy as always, he's not limping at all. He has left a little bit of his kibble these past two feedings, but, I may just be giving him too much. Ace cleans up what he leaves and that's okay-she could use a few more pounds and he's finally at a good weight and he's always been good at self-regulating.

[Charlies_Dad]

Kristin, for the Artemisinin, you may want to join the Yahoo group on this as they have documented several cycling protocols. We gave it to Charlie at night mixed with cottage cheese and ground flax. I believe we were cycling every 5 days if I recall correctly. Curcumin we gave in Charlie's late afternoon dinner.

[RaineysMom]

sorry to all going through this :( We found that "regular" vets don't really know the proper Gabapentin dosage here either, it took the oncologist to raise Nube to 300mg 3 x day.

 

and I'm posting here in the hopes that it will do a backward "jinx". Larry has been limping - slightly, but it was worse last night -- since at least last Saturday. He just turned 6. It's the same damn leg as Nube. Hopefully it's just a sore muscle or something. He's got a 4pm vet appt today, and I'm sure they'll try Rimadyl first like they did with Nube, since I'm sure they won't be able to do x-rays that late in the day (and they may insist on putting him under for them, like they did with Nube).

 

So, since I'm posting here, that will mean that it's NOT C, right? :Hope

[45MPHK9]

FWIW, we never saw an oncologist. We had our "regular" vet treating Bee Wiseman. He listened to me when I reported what I read here and he and adjusted drug dosages for her as necessary. A good vet will listen to you. Don't feel like you have to seek out an oncologist to get appropriate pain management. Any vet with a Merck manual should be able to dispense an adequate amount of pain meds to a dog with a painful terminal cancer.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited April 4, 2013 by 45MPHK9

[NeylasMom]

Okay, my artemisinin and curcumin arrived!

 

Help me with this...artemisinin once a day, away from food containing iron. Give the curcumin at the same time? I have never used curcumin before.

 

Any issues to watch for with curcumin?

 

Methinks I need to do some reading, but I'm sure someone here has a quick answer...

 

Fritz is a happy guy as always, he's not limping at all. He has left a little bit of his kibble these past two feedings, but, I may just be giving him too much. Ace cleans up what he leaves and that's okay-she could use a few more pounds and he's finally at a good weight and he's always been good at self-regulating.

 

 

Kristin, for the Artemisinin, you may want to join the Yahoo group on this as they have documented several cycling protocols. We gave it to Charlie at night mixed with cottage cheese and ground flax. I believe we were cycling every 5 days if I recall correctly. Curcumin we gave in Charlie's late afternoon dinner.

They don't recommend cycling anymore, and I don't believe many people are using Curcumin anymore either. Kristin, if you do want to use the curcumin (it may provide anti-inflammatory relief even if it doesn't help the artemisinin) there are a couple of things to consider. One is that it can cause stomach upset. That seems to be relatively common. Also, it's not easily absorbed. I used a couple of supplements before I settled on one made by Thorne-Research that pairs it with a compound that helps with absorption. Prior to that, I would see orange flecks in Neyla's stool all of the time. Once I switched, they stopped appearing. That was all of the proof I needed that the earlier ones weren't really being absorbed. Lastly, supposedly giving it in some fat will help with absorption.

 

I'm pretty sure Butyrate is the more common supplement to help boost Artemisinin's effect, although you shouldn't quote me on that. I'll see if I can dig up the email I saved that has the most up to date info, which is still over a year old at this point. You're best best, like Kyle said, would be to join the yahoo group.

[Guest BaxtersMom]

sorry to all going through this :( We found that "regular" vets don't really know the proper Gabapentin dosage here either, it took the oncologist to raise Nube to 300mg 3 x day.

 

and I'm posting here in the hopes that it will do a backward "jinx". Larry has been limping - slightly, but it was worse last night -- since at least last Saturday. He just turned 6. It's the same damn leg as Nube. Hopefully it's just a sore muscle or something. He's got a 4pm vet appt today, and I'm sure they'll try Rimadyl first like they did with Nube, since I'm sure they won't be able to do x-rays that late in the day (and they may insist on putting him under for them, like they did with Nube).

 

So, since I'm posting here, that will mean that it's NOT C, right? :hope

Hope Larry is ok.

[NeylasMom]

I found my correspondence. Here's what someone on the board had to say:

 

We have added a new file titled Artemisninin Questions Answered By Dr. Singh.
You may find that of interest. It has the latest dosing protocol listed in
there.
> I think we have come to believe that daily dosing of Artemisinin, Artesunate,
and Artemether is the best plan of attack.
> The following is with vit C and E at low dosess at breakfast and lunch is very
important in the protocol, and if this is followed there should be no fears of
the Arte stopping working like it was once believed.
> Another supplement that is commonly used now to prevent metastasis, is
Bindweed, packaged under the brand names of C Statin, Vascustation, or Angio
Block.
> Curcumin is easily made more bioavailable with some bulk turmeric sprinkled on
it and blended in cottage cheese for delivery.

 

The bold is my emphasis and refers to the lack of a need to cycle. I personally don't agree with her about the bioavailability of curcumin based on what I saw and described above, but to each his own. Kristin, I have the file she refers to saved. If you have my email address, send me an email and I will send it to you. Or send me your email address via FB.

 

Worth nothing that that was back in March of last year so things may have changed since then.

[KF_in_Georgia]

My vet may not be the most greyhound-savvy vet around, and he's not up to date on all the more recent trends with meds.

 

But when I told him I thought we needed Gabapentin for Sam, I told him what I'd read on Greytalk, how much per day, use 100mg capsules, etc. He left the room for about 10 minutes, hit the Internet and his vet manuals, and came back with a written script for 100mg capsules, as much as 900mg per day, given "as needed." (Basically, he just let me figure out what would work.)

 

And he's seen the result in Sam, so that I'm pretty sure he's recommending it for other patients when needed. He knows Sam isn't doped out of his skull, but also isn't having to come in once a month because his back pain is flaring up. (And Sam makes him laugh.)

 

So I love my vet.

 

P.S. Sam's still eating his pulverized kibble.

[Guest FawnFan]

I hope Larry is OK too. Sending good thoughts your way.

 

Yay Sam for eating your pulverized kibble!!!

 

Kristin glad to hear Fritz is still a happy pup and that you received your herbs. Good luck with that treatment!

 

~Jean

[RaineysMom]

Hi folks, we got good news -- x-rays were ok!!! I don't mean to be happy when so many are suffering but I know you all know the shear FEAR when you first see the limp I was reliving Nube all over again this week.

 

sending more hugs and prayers for all the pups out there -- and for their moms and dads -- that are fighting this battle.