Osteo Thread Part Vi

[Batmom]

Children's vitamins that don't smell so bad: Try the gummies.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Children's vitamins that don't smell so bad: Try the gummies.

Of course, I've got a whole bottle of the stinky sort... I guess they'll have to be my vitamins.

[Batmom]

Adult gummies are pretty good too .

[KF_in_Georgia]

But just make sure your vitamins aren't sweetened with xylitol. So far, all the vitamins I've found have sugar or sorbitol, but I suppose xylitol is possible... It's just toxic to dogs.

[Batmom]

FWIW, over the short term (couple months) you usually don't need to worry about vitamins. I understand the desire to provide the most nutrition possible, tho.

[Guest OPointyDog]

For Gunner, I'm surprised that no one has suggested Mirtazapine as an appetite stimulant. When our grey x GSD had cancer and stopped eating, we really thought things were over, so I asked for an appetite stimulant and the vet prescribed Mirtazapine. It worked miracles - she ate better on that than she did most of her life. I understand it doesn't work for everyone, but it's a fairly safe drug and might be worth a shot.

 

Meat-based baby food also seems to be a favorite around here - it's bland and easy on the digestive tract, but it seems to appeal to many dogs. Ours will steal the jars out of the recycling if I'm not careful!

 

And I'm sorry to read about Fritz. I've always loved seeing the photos of him with Ace, so was shocked to read about his diagnosis. I hope you have a long time with him yet!

[krissn333]

Need some help...I have searched and searched and can't find it...I know I can get artemisinin from Holley, but, I recall someone (or rather, several people) that liked the artemisinin from somewhere else better. PLEASE tell me where that was?

[TwiggysMom]

Kristin, I think there are 2 other places people have ordered it from I'm pretty sure FedX's came from NutriCology (because I ordered some of that one because of him), I also seem to remember Swanson being another source.

 

I've used both Holley and NutriCology, and haven't noticed a difference, FWIW - Twiggy's just happy to get her daily peanut butter!

[Guest FawnFan]

Sorry Kristen can't help you with the artemisinin.

 

And thank you everyone for your suggestions. My concern with him just eating meat was that there was too much protein going in and it would cause some other issue. I agree with everyone that my main concern is to keep food in him - no matter what kind of food that happens to be.

 

Also re: the appetite stimulant, I just got that Rx filled today. So I will definitely be giving it to him. I do need to go get a roaster chicken though because I'm out and that's all he's been eating the past couple of days. Haven't found my special add-on that makes everything taste yummy. I'm not sure I'm going to find one as that doesn't seem like him.

 

I do have another question... what does the panting mean? Two days ago, he woke up from a sound sleep, laid on the couch with his head up and panted for 5 or so minutes. Then was asleep again. Yesterday there was no panting. Today he has panted 3 or 4 times already and is currently lying down, head up and panting. Is this a sign of pain? If it is, I can give him more Tramadol as I'm just at the minimum dose of 1.5 tabs every 12 hours. The bottle says I can go up to 2 or 2.5 (can't remember exactly and don't have it in front of me).

 

Unfortunately to me he seems like he is getting slower by the day. I really don't want to say that out loud because I don't want to focus on that yet I've noticed he is really cautious coming up the stairs from outside over the past two days. Even last week, he would run or trot to the door and then zip right up the stairs with no problem.

 

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate your help via this thread.

[krissn333]

I would give the tramadol every 8 hours instead of every 12.

 

Fritz was a little zombieish on 2 pills every 8 hours but 1.5 every 8 seems to be the sweet spot.

 

I need to read up on gabapentin stuff - I want to at least have it on hand. With yesterday's whirlwind, I forgot to ask about getting some.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Yes, you can up the tramadol. Also, how much gabapentin is he getting? It might be possible to go up on that. The max most people do on the gabapentin is 900mg a day, or 300mg 3xday. Sam gets four 50mg tramadol in a day (vet says he could have six a day), and seven 100mg gabapentin a day, spread out in four doses.

 

Moving slowly might be because things hurt, so that he's feeling cautious.

Edited March 30, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[krissn333]

Just ordered the artemisinin and curcumin that FedX was taking (BTW Wendy, it was the Swanson brand that she felt worked best for him so that's what I just ordered).

 

Also just put in my consult form to OSU with his xrays attached so they can have a look at them.

 

Fritz just let out a BIG groan and stretched while he's snoozing away on my bed

Edited March 30, 2013 by krissn333

[Guest FawnFan]

Thanks again ladies for the advice. Here's what Gunney is taking (or I should say, here's what I've been giving him):

 

1/2 75mg Rimadyl with each meal, 12 hours apart - 6 AM and 6 PM; another 1/2 at bedtime with a small meal, between 9:30 - 10:30 PM

1.5 50mg Tramadol with each meal, 6 AM and 6 PM

1 300mg Gabapentin every 24 hours - given at 9:30 - 10:30 PM feeding; the Rx says 1 capsule every 24 hrs for 5 days at night then increase to 1 capsule every 12 hours

 

So it sounds like I need to up the Tramadol to 1.5 pills 3x's a day or should I start with 1 pill 3x's a day? I could up the Rimadyl too to the 1 tablet every 12 hours.

 

Also he seems hungry yet everything I've offered him just now wasn't appetizing (offered deli store baked ham and deli store baked roast beef). I also offered some of the Ensure; he drank maybe 1.5 tablespoons, not a lot. He also keeps picking up a milkbone and carrying it to other beds to protect it from my other chow hound (Dawson knows not to eat Gunner's cookies). I'm going to try to get the appetite stimulant into his system now so maybe he'll eat a good dinner.

 

 

Kristin, fyi when I sent Gunner's xrays to OSU 2 weeks ago, Dr. Kellogg got back to me within 24 hours. Hopefully you'll see the same response time.

 

Thanks again!

[KF_in_Georgia]

That's not much gabapentin, and gabapentin has such a short half-life that it will wear off long before the next day--even before 12 hours when you get to that point in the schedule. (Starting at lower levels, then increasing, is a good idea, but most of us started with 300mg spread out over 24 hours rather than 300mg in one dose.)

 

If your vet doesn't have 100mg capsules, ask for a prescription for the smaller-size dose (gabapentin is not hard to find). Then, when your vet says you can go to 600mg a day, you can split it out as 200mg every eight hours rather than 300mg every 12, which will give you better coverage.

 

Gabapentin references for your vet: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3730018, which says "Gabapentin is well absorbed in rats, dogs and in humans, with maximum blood levels, reached within 1-3 h after peroral administration."

 

And (long link) here. That link mostly discusses the use of gabapentin to prevent seizures (what it was first developed for), but gives info on the half-life and briefly discuses its use for pain.

 

Something to note: Don't use the liquid formula of gabapentin. Most vets and pharmacists know, but it's worth mentioning: The liquid formula, designed for kids who suffer seizures, contains xylitol.

[BauersMom]

A suggestion - there seems to be a lot of good info and links mentioned within this thread related to dosing and protocol for pain meds... could that be added to the front page for easy reference in the next iteration? It seems like it comes up often enough.

[Guest FawnFan]

A suggestion - there seems to be a lot of good info and links mentioned within this thread related to dosing and protocol for pain meds... could that be added to the front page for easy reference in the next iteration? It seems like it comes up often enough.

Good suggestion! I entered this thread late in the pages and haven't gotten through all of the 20 some pages yet (let alone all of the other pages in the other versions of this thread). I'm also trying to keep track of what I'm doing personally too so I have it for a reference for future use. I'd like to give back since everyone here has been so generous with their time and information.

 

And thanks Kathy for the suggestions. I'll call them tomorrow (they're open I believe for a few hours) to discuss. If Dr. Jennifer is not there then I'll discuss with the acupuncture Vet on Monday evening when we go in. These two seem to be tag-teaming our case and they're communicating with each other so this information will be good. And thanks for the insight about the liquid form.

 

Also the appetite stimulant worked - yay! I did half a pill at first and then did the other half 20 or so minutes later - I didn't wait long enough. He ate a pretty good dinner of roasted chicken (probably 3/4's of the 2 lb chicken), about 2 tablespoons of chicken and veggies and then 4 or 5 pieces of deli ham. I gave him the half of Rimadyl at 5:30 pm cause he seemed uncomfortable and I gave him a half of a Tramadol tablet. I'll give more at the "night" feeding; trying to get him on the 6 AM; 2 PM; 10 PM schedule for the Tramadol.

 

Thanks again everyone!

[KF_in_Georgia]

If you don't have one already, you might want to get a pill sorter. You can lay out a week's worth of pills at once, which usually gives you some warning if you're running low on something and need a refill. (I usually need to refill at least one med every week.) Also, when you've gotten up early two or three days in a row for pills, you suddenly start forgetting whether you've given the pills that morning or not (my alarm goes off, I think "I'll get the pills in a second," and 20 minutes later, I can't remember whether I gave the pills or just thought about giving them).

 

Some of Sam's pills are once a day, one pill is half every other day, some are three times a day, others are four. This is the only way I keep track:

 

 

The pill sorter is also useful if someone else ever has to give pills. The pills to be given are all laid out, and if the sorter compartment is empty, then pills got given.

Edited March 30, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[krissn333]

The pill sorter helps The other thing that I do-I made an additional gmail calendar on my account that's called Pet Meds that syncs to my iPhone. I get a calendar reminder when it's time for meds With 5 dogs and 2 cats, all of whom take at the very least a supplement, it's very helpful, especially for Ace. Her chemo is every other weekend, and her prednisone is every other day. There's no way I could keep track without the help of some sort of calendar. My iPhone is always with me, so that's easiest for me.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Yeah, I did a gmail calendar for a while--especially when Silver was taking some pills three times a day and other pills two times a day. But my phone alarm would go off when I was in the middle of something, and then I couldn't remember whether she'd had pills or not. It's especially tricky since meals happen before pills, so the alarm is actually to remind me to feed the dogs. But if I leave the kitchen mid meal and before pills, I might not remember whether I got back in there. (It doesn't help that I work from home, so seven days a week are absolutely identical.)

 

The pulverized kibble is working well. Sam's just cleaned his dish for the third time today, leaving Silver nothing to scavenge. That'll help her weight as well as his.

[krissn333]

I use the calendar in conjunction with the pill sorter...that way I know if I've given the pills or not

 

Glad the pulverized kibble is working! I'll keep that trick in my arsenal if anyone here gets picky!

[Guest FawnFan]

thanks for the suggestions. I usually make up a chart in Excel that gets filled out so everything can be tracked and I won't forget.

 

So now I have a new problem. Gunner ate almost a whole chicken for dinner and shortly thereafter (this was 5-5:30'ish EDT) I gave him his meds. Just now (9:15 PM EDT) he just threw EVERYTHING up! Ugh... For the past 30 minutes or so he has been his old "usual" self. All excited, running around (which I made him stop) and being just really happy.

 

Do I stop giving him the meds? Call the E/R Vet to discuss? Give him another small meal and his "nite" meds and talk to the regular Vet in the morning - they're open on Sundays? Any advice?

[KF_in_Georgia]

Do you have anti-nausea meds for him? If so, I'd give those soonish. Limit his water just enough to keep him from gulping down large quantities.* Then about 30-45 minutes after stomach meds, I'd give the night meal and night meds. Whether those stay down or not, I think I'd call his vet in the morning. There are shots (like cerenia) they can give to help him keep down his food and meds (and they can give some meds by injection to make up for what he's throwing up). Also, ask your vet if Gunner needs something like Prilosec to protect against the rimadyl.

 

 

*Give him a water bowl with only a little in it. If he drinks it all, don't refill it for 30 minutes or more and then just a little bit again. If he's getting fluids in his food, you can limit his water even more.

 

ETA: When Sam was doing a lot of vomiting with his ulcer, on his worst night I kept making him lie down and keep quiet. He'd doze for a few minutes, wake up, go back to sleep, etc.

Edited March 31, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest FawnFan]

The Vet gave me 60mg Cerenia for vomiting and the directions say give 2 tablets by mouth every 24 hours for vomiting.

 

I also did call the local ER Vet. The nurse said not to feed him anything now and no meds now. She said try feeding him again in 12 hours from now (really???). They want his stomach to "calm down" first. Not sure I agree with this exactly only because I would like to stay ahead of the pain and not let him get to be really painful.

 

Now he seems to be fine. He's laying down in a dog bed, getting comfortable and trying to go to sleep.

[Guest FawnFan]

And thank you Kathy for answering me so quickly.

 

I was also surprised that it seemed none of the food had been processed yet. Seems like a long time (4 hours) for that food to be sitting in his stomach.

 

 

I also found it comical that as the Vet Tech was ending the call with me, she made sure she told me they were open 24 hours a day and to be sure to bring him in if I had more problems, blah-blah... a mini commercial of sorts. I thought, really? Hmmm, and here I thought I called the regular Vet and not the Emergency Vet that is open 24 hours a day. :-/

 

Thanks again for your help. I'm going to see if he'll eat anything... maybe some baby food (hopefully) so I can get the Cerenia down.

[Guest FawnFan]

Gunner's sound asleep and has been for the past 15 minutes. I really don't want to wake him up.