2 Year-Old Male - Do You See Hip/spine Issue?

[lovemycoffee]

A good indication of LS is to check the back feet for "knuckling". Take one hind foot, turn the toes under, and put it back down on the knuckles with the toes curled. A dog with neurological problems will be slow to straighten out the the toes, as he doesn't feel the sensation as quickly.

[dmdsmoxie]

I'm meeting my (very first) future Grey this weekend if all goes as planned! So far I've had the chance to see several videos of him from his trainer. I showed one video to a friend and she thought he perhaps seemed a little "off" in the rear-end. I will note, however, that she's not Greyhound savvy.. but then again, neither am I, which is why I'm here. Can someone take a look at these videos and let me know if there seems to be a problem? I'm worried about something like LS/Cauda Equina--is that only a problem in seniors? He just turned 2 years old at the end of October, raced twice with no injuries that I can find, and gets regular daily exercise (two 45 minute walks). He's a little underweight right now (about 68 lbs). His racing name is "Izz Our Storm."

 

The first video especially worried me the first time I saw it.. but then I thought maybe he was just trying to find the "perfect" spot to sun himself and was being indecisive, lol.

http://s1184.beta.ph...html?sort=3&o=4

 

 

A short sprint while practicing recall:

http://s1184.beta.ph...tml?sort=3&o=14

 

 

Service dog training:

http://s1184.beta.ph...tml?sort=3&o=13

 

http://s1184.beta.ph...html?sort=3&o=0

(^This was the video that worried my friend.)

 

 

Stairs:

http://s1184.beta.ph...html?sort=3&o=5

 

 

Jumping up into a car:

http://s1184.beta.ph...tml?sort=3&o=18

 

 

Playing with names and agility jump..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WylOVvGT_uA

 

 

What do you think, GT?

 

Kaila,

 

I sent your videos to Dennis, AKA Rockingship. Since you are new here you probably don't know him. He was a trainer for many years at Wonderland and is one of the smartest people you will find when it comes to anything about greyhounds.

 

He asked me to give you his e mail address, but you don't have enough posts to PM you. So if you contact me at dmds moxie @ yahoo . com no spaces in the e mail, I will give you his e mail address.

 

Dick

[JJNg]

Lots of good points in the previous responses covering the various factors that may be affecting his gait in these videos. Can't say for sure, but my basic impression from the videos is that he seems generally stiff in the rear and his left rear seems to be bothering him more. Like silverfish, I also thought that the gait of the dog who is walking in the recall video looks similar to the gait of the dog seen in the other videos. Definitely something that should be evaluated in person, and especially since you want him for service work, I'd strongly recommend having an independent vet evaluate him before making any commitments.

 

I'd be curious to hear what Dennis thinks too. He has an excellent eye for gait and movement. He's watched a video of my greyhounds at an amateur racing event and immediately recognized a minor issue that my boy has.

[racindog]

IMO he has an issue that is being manifested -by a rear leg that is clearly off and by some issue making it difficult to flex to lay down etc. I think it is probably something with the spine-possibly the sacral area but it could be a hip or something. Like the above poster I would not think he would be a good candidate for anything physical without knowing more about whats going on. While injuries and issues may not even botherr some dogs when they are young they can incapacitate them as the dog ages. I know this from experience. I also know that perfectly healthy greyounds (especially large heavy ones) are not uncommonly seriously and very painfully injured in the hips by being lifted and swung by them while under anesthesia. Perhaps it happenned when he was castrated if so. Know that from very sad experience also.

Edited November 5, 2012 by racindog

[Guest Kaila]

This has me so worried. I really want this to be the right dog. I don't intend to use him for any bracing (downward pressure, assist to stand), wheelchair pulling, etc. Just counterbalance (leaning away from the pressure on one side of the harness when I'm unsteady while walking) and momentum (pulling forward in the harness to assist with forward movement). I'm 5'2" and 100 lbs, he will be about 70 lbs at pet weight. I don't want to overlook a serious issue, but I'm also hoping he just has a weird gait and that it's nothing serious.. He gets 1 1/2 hours of exercise each day and is still at race weight, so I'm hoping it's just those hunky muscles getting in the way.

 

 

Oh, I forgot to add that the mobility assist I described would not be on a daily basis. Only during flare ups of my condition. Primary tasks are psychiatric related and require no pulling.

[Guest Kaila]

Another video. He's the dog the camera is focused on in the beginning. The one chewing the toy is a different dog.

 

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z338/GreenAppleEyes/Greyhound%20Service%20Dog/F35807A4-73E1-4827-8DA1-30B6C009B744-11215-0000090E2738E709.mp4

Edited November 5, 2012 by Kaila

[Guest Kaila]

The shoulder injury the trainer is referring to was a cut from a nip during play. One dog got his muzzle off.

[silverfish]

Wait to hear what Dennis (Rockinship) has to say, because as Jennifer (JjNg) says, he has a huge amount of knowledge and expertise when it comes to greyhound injuries and gait anomalies.

 

By the way, Jennifer is a veterinarian, so her opinion is well worth listening to, as well.

 

I'd just like to say that many of us here have had our hearts set on a particular dog who hasn't turned out to be a wise choice. Some of us know from personal experience how hard it can be to live with that choice. If you think it's difficult now to say no to this boy, imagine how hard it would be six months down the road if it does turn out that he has a chronic injury. By then, you will truly love him and won't want to give him up, and you could end up without a service dog at all, unless you can afford to take on a second.

[gazehund]

If you talk to Dennis do please let us know what he says. As Dick said, Dennis is very good at grehound

anatomy and movement. I have never seen a greyhound move so wide behind as this fellow but I have no idea what that might mean.

[Jiffer]

What has the vet said about this?

 

I mean, it's all well and good to ask the laypersons on this site, but very few of us are professionals and in most cases, he'll need a neurological and physical run down to know for sure if there is anything wrong or if this is just his normal body movement. How is his knuckling response, for example? Is it even on both sides? How is his neck reflexion? Is he resistant to any manipulation or stretching?

 

I have owned six greys over these last nine years and I can tell you that not one of them walked like any of the others. Each has their own gait, trot, and movement. It depends on muscle, injury, strain and body type. I tease my one boy all the time that it looks like he has a stick up his tookus.. but even at 11, he's extremely well muscled in his hind end and it forces him to walk with a wide stance.

 

Frankly, many of the hard racers out there need a good chiropractic adjustment when they come off the track. To me, it's no different than people.. ones body gets stiff and needs an adjustment here or there now and again. It probably wouldn't hurt to have this fellow checked over.

[Guest Kaila]

Here is Dennis' reply:

 

"Hi Kaila,

 

Yes I did. I think what you have there is a dog who "ran his back off". What this means is that sometimes dogs will overextend themselves when racing, and/or when insufficiently prepared to race and/or because their PH is not well balanced. This can cause the onset of what is called metabolic acidosis. What happens is that the blood becomes overloaded with waste products and can't compensate, and the kidneys, especially, become overtaxed, and significantly dysfunctional. The dog dehydrates rapidly, and the muscles become very sore because of the buildup of waste products which can't be rapidly or properly eliminated. The muscles then waste dramatically, the back "pinches", especially above the waist in the kidney area, and becomes cylindrical in its shape, rather than "flat" as it should be. The spinal vertebrae appear to be overly visible and the skin becomes very tight, and not easily grasped. That is coupled with overall extreme body soreness and an inability of the dog to easily or adequately pass urine. The "first aid" treatment is to administer and IV drip of Ringers Solution, a muscle relaxer, and to make sure the dog drinks liquids frequently, and is allowed proper time to pass urine, every hour if need be. Feeding would normally increase to 2X a day including an electrolyte supplement , and whirlpool treatments and/or with massage are done daily. When you receive the dog, if you like, I will tell you how to "flush" his kidneys, which will help him significantly. 

 

Looking at the videos, the dog appears to be seriously underweight and quite sore, overall---particularly when attempting to lie down. So while this might have happened sometime ago, he does not appear to have recovered well. Whether or not there is some spinal impingement is not possible to detect form the videos, but I suspect there might be a lumbar or sacroiliac interruption of his neuro-muscular response there. When you walk him, listen to hear if the nails on either of his rear feet scrape the ground as he moves forward. He might also have a groin strain or even an abdominal strain or tear. When he is lying down, you can check his abdomen and groin for bruising or tears in the muscles. At any rate, when you meet the dog, grasp a handful of skin above where his his waist tucks, on his back, and pull the skin upwards as far as it will comfortably stretch. Then release it and see if it snaps back like a rubber band (good) or if it slowly returns to form. The skin should not be tight or difficult to grasp or stretch, and should snap right back into place when you stretch and release.

 

Looking ahead, he needs to gain, imo, about 7-8 pounds. I'd feed him twice a day until he gained that much. He appears to be far too thin and bony in the videos. Keep in touch and let us know what you learn as things develop. Good luck.

 

Dennis"

[silverfish]

 

Are you going to forward this to the people who have the dog at the moment? They should probably be made aware.

[gazehund]

Very interesting. Thanks for the update.

[Guest Kaila]

I also found this. Thoughts?

 

"A longer bodied dog offers more room under his body, so his feet will not interfere. The extra room forgives faults that would be readily apparent in a square dog.  The longer bodied unbalanced dog may appear to move correctly, but he has two faults, imbalance from front to rear and too long in body. 

 

A Doberman with leg length longer than body depth will have the same problem with interference under the body.  There will not be enough room under the dog to place his feet without interference, because the long legs “overstep” what his body length can accommodate.  His back feet strike the front feet before the front foot can get out of the way.  His compensation is similar to the dog that is overangulated in rear relative to front.

 

Typical movement for both of these deviations in structure is a dog that “side-winds” or “crabs” when he moves.  He moves with his rear to one side of his front, so that his rear feet strike the ground to one side of his front feet.  This gives him the appearance of moving sideways or moving like a crab.

 

Another means to compensate for this structural deviation is the dog that moves wider in the rear than in the front.  This occurs in Dobermans occasionally, but the breed is much more likely to side-wind than to move wide in rear."

 

It's about Dobermans obviously, but could it help explain why he walks wide?

[Batmom]

I also found this. Thoughts?

 

"A longer bodied dog ...

It's about Dobermans obviously, but could it help explain why he walks wide?

 

No.

 

He doesn't move like a 2 year old -- he moves like a much older dog with some impairment. I'd listen to Rockingship on this one.

 

I'd also direct people to Rockingship's note about the dog's weight.

[Guest Kaila]

I'm going to see Stormy myself in person and look for the signs Dennis told me to look for before I mention anything more. If he doesn't feel tight around the waist and doesn't drag his nails, then he might just be sore from adjusting to life off the track or from building up stamina on these ling distance walks. He definitely needs to gain weight though.

 

Walking on slick floors and stairs are probably still new to him. He was still racing on June 30, 2012. Then he retired to a rescue, and was picked up by the organization on Sept. 1, 2012. He only started service dog training Sept. 30, 2012. So the long walks started about two months ago.

 

 

I din't know even as I type this what I'll do! I just need to see him in person.

[PrairieProf]

I wonder how he'd look after a couple of sessions of acupuncture and/or chiropractic.

[robinw]

Rockingship is very knowlegable. I would listen to him. He walks exactly like my Loca used to walk. She was 8.5 years old with over 200 races under her belt when I adopted her and had somemild spinal/shoulder difficulty.

 

Hopefully this is something that can be fixed, because he is really pretty and seems so smart Good luck!

Edited November 5, 2012 by robinw

[gazehund]

I also found this. Thoughts?

 

"A longer bodied dog ...

It's about Dobermans obviously, but could it help explain why he walks wide?

 

No.

 

He doesn't move like a 2 year old -- he moves like a much older dog with some impairment. I'd listen to Rockingship on this one.

 

I'd also direct people to Rockingship's note about the dog's weight.

 

Agreed. I have a long back hound who was a super good racer. He does not move anything like that but

he is pigeon toed. I also have a hound of the short, stout, square variety and he doesn't move like that either.

Cracks (long back) is 6 and DD is 7.

[greytpups]

It sounds like you have your heart set on him no matter what...please take note of what Dennis says, hopefully you'll be able to keep your emotions out of this decision and do what's right for both of you. I'd print Dennis' comments out and make sure the trainer is aware of this. To be honest, it appears that you are justifying a lot of his issues, which is another red flag that you may be making a decision with your heart rather than your head. On the other hand, the trainers should be well aware if his physical condition and know whether or not he's suitable. I'd still defer to Dennis though over the trainer.

 

I'm not sure how far he's walking but at 2 years old these walks should not make him walk like an old dog. We took Ben out yesterday (he's 10.5) for about 2.5 hours along with Brooke and he was fine, not dragging at all. I'm not sure how long the walks are, but it makes me wonder if it's pain, not his physical condition.

 

Good Luck with whatever you decide.

[Guest grey_dreams]

He is a beauty, very smart, and a good boy. He deserves a good home and good care. Greyhounds like being with other greyhounds. Maybe you can adopt two dogs, and then give Stormy the care he needs and have the service dog that you wanted.

[Guest Kaila]

I'm hoping that Dennis is saying that this can be fixed with this particular dog, but either way I'll let the trainer know. I just want to do my own evaluation first. This is my first team training session with the dog so I haven't had a chance to meet him in person yet. They live a few hours away from here so I'm traveling to them this weekend.

 

Storm's racing data:

 

http://www.trackinfo.com/dog.jsp?runnername=Izz%20Our%20Storm

[silverfish]

It's about Dobermans obviously, but could it help explain why he walks wide?

 

No.

 

Greyhound body shape varies enormously but they are naturally a breed with long legs and long bodies. Most move just fine. What constitutes a fault in Dobermans does not necessarily cause a problem in greyhounds.

 

I have a greyhound who 'crabs'. He's ten years old. He's a very tall, slender build, and he has one half of a floating rib on one side only, and we've often speculated that it's the reason he crabs and is clumsy. However that may be, my dog is in every other respect normal. He is supple, agile, has plenty of energy, and never hesitates when lying down or getting up, no matter what surface he's on. I haven't seen him EVER slip while getting himself down, either. He'll throw himself down on any kind of surface, if he feels like it!

 

He compensates for his shape - as most very tall, slender greyhounds do - by taking shorter steps while walking and trotting, and only really 'opens out' while galloping. Oddly, he still crabs while galloping, when according to the Doberman theory he should be fine, because ALL greyhounds over-reach with their hind legs while galloping, placing them outside the front feet while airborne.

 

I respectfully suggest that you are unwilling to accept what the experts here (Jennifer and Dennis) are saying, because you really, really want this particular dog. It's very understandable, and you wouldn't be the first. I'm not saying that you should accept the word of people on a forum (experts or not), but for his sake I do urge you to get an independent, greyhound-savvy vet to give him a thorough work up before you consider accepting him for service training.

[silverfish]

BTW, other people will be far more knowledgeable than I am about racing matters, but in his short history, looks like he got blocked and/or bumped on pretty much every outing. And on his second outing it looks as if he got hurt, because he 'faded' after being bumped. Might be worth mentioning this to the vet when you get him evaluated.

 

According to my vets (who are greyhound-savvy and do a lot of duty work at the local track) dogs who are frequently bumped while racing often end up with some degree of spine problem. Just as a FYI.

[Guest rockingship]

Hello friends!

 

Kaila, I didn't notice anything in his races that would alarm me, other than the fact that when he fell behind and could not sight the lure, he just followed the pack. This is not highly unusual track behavior. In the second race, he broke alertly and rushed up in close quarters with the wave, which would tend to suggest that his hindquarters were not bothering him to any great degree at that point.,

 

If I'm guessing correctly, and at some point the dog had a bout with metabolic acidosis, it's absolutely not a deal breaker. Some good feed, lots of liquids and massages, and proper exercise should be all he needs. And if he requires some chiropractic adjustment, that's not too hard to find nowadays.