Managing Dominance

[KickReturn]

Oh, he definitely has some fun police in him. The only time I have ever heard him bark is when another dog barks at him. But he will also invite play and chase other dogs. Maybe he is just confused. Very happy, but confused.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

It is very typical for greyhounds and other breeds to have interaction issues from time to time. Realize that all regular dogs that were raised by humans were raised as human surrogates, not as pack animals. Greyhounds were raised separate of a pet's life and raised as a true pack animal. Sometimes it can cause communication issues since regular dogs have bad habits that we humans teach them (such as going up to say hi to another dog by sniffing their nose - in pack life, this is a challenge to fight).

Edited August 21, 2012 by Greyt_dog_lover

[Guest iconsmum]

Not a dominance issue - typical greyhound (ie. dogs who are not always completely socialized to other breeds because of their farm/track upbringing) reaction to rude/impolite dogs.

 

Here's a nice article to give you some perspective.

 

I generally don't allow my dogs to greet other dogs on lead - too many potential issues for disaster, not the least of which is that the humans tighten up on the leashes, preventing the dogs from moving through the natural greeting progression (a brief nose to nose sniff, then each gradually moving down the dogs side until they are nose to butt, at which point they will generally slowly circle as they sniff) and sending tension down the leash, which the dog picks up on. Also far too easy for leashes to get tangled and a now trapped dog to freak out. If both my dog and the approaching dog seem completely calm and their body language is indicating friendly interest, then I may consider letting them meet if the other owner says it's okay, but the meeting is kept brief (a few seconds to start) and then I CALL my dog away, rather than pulling on the leash. All of my dogs get rewarded (including food rewards) for positive interactions with other dogs.

[Guest iconsmum]

I'm a trainer and I totally agree with this leash protocol. Very savvy owner here. The fact that a dog is restrained (read that leashed) is what prevents the greeting exchange from being normal. The minute you add two people to the other end of the leashes there is tension or uncertainty to some degree or other. Most people have very limited leash skills because they have limited species awareness. The safest approach is not to. Just keep moving forward in a curve around an oncoming dog and don't allow stopping or straight on nose to nose meeting That way your dog doesn't get to rehearse any lack of social skill and you don't get a bad rep for allowing it. if you want him to be calm, walk side by side with a practice-pal, humans together, dogs on the outside and maintain a good clip. If you're meeting up with a walking buddy, arrange to have dog/owner #1 fifty feet ahead of you moving forward briskly and catch up to them also briskly to become a new whole. This takes the emphasis away from the greeting.

 

I'm a trainer and I totally agree with this leash protocol. Very savvy owner here. The fact that a dog is restrained (read that leashed) is what prevents the greeting exchange from being normal. The minute you add two people to the other end of the leashes there is tension or uncertainty to some degree or other. Most people have very limited leash skills because they have limited species awareness. The safest approach is not to. Just keep moving forward in a curve around an oncoming dog and don't allow stopping or straight on nose to nose meeting That way your dog doesn't get to rehearse any lack of social skill and you don't get a bad rep for allowing it. if you want him to be calm, walk side by side with a practice-pal, humans together, dogs on the outside and maintain a good clip. If you're meeting up with a walking buddy, arrange to have dog/owner #1 fifty feet ahead of you moving forward briskly and catch up to them also briskly to become a new whole. This takes the emphasis away from the greeting.

Edited August 21, 2012 by iconsmum

[christinepi]

Kickreturn, you wrote:

 

The other day at the beach Hester broke up a fight. Three dogs started to bully and attack a super submissive (and gorgeous) Flatcoat.

 

It either was a fight or it was fun. If it was fun, then yes, I'd say Hester played fun police, and was bossy. But if it was a fight, then what Hester did was about something else. This is tricky to interpret without having seen it or knowing your dog.

 

Greyt_dog_lover, you wrote:

 

It is very typical for greyhounds and other breeds to have interaction issues from time to time. Realize that all regular dogs that were raised by humans were raised as human surrogates, not as pack animals. Greyhounds were raised separate of a pet's life and raised as a true pack animal. Sometimes it can cause communication issues since regular dogs have bad habits that we humans teach them (such as going up to say hi to another dog by sniffing their nose - in pack life, this is a challenge to fight).

 

Just to be sure I'm understanding this correctly: are you saying the "pack" instinct is something that can be instilled or taken away by humans, as opposed to being an innate behavior? Or are you saying humans often do a lousy job at socializing dogs properly?

 

The thing I don't quite get with all the superb socializing greyhounds get at the race track there are still great differences in how retired greyhounds interact with other strange dogs (be they greyhound or other breeds): there seems to be a wide range that runs the gamut from greyhound individuals being superbly comfortable and non-reactive to any other dog, to other greyhounds that bark and lunge at whatever other dog comes along. My guess is that they're just individuals, too, and just because they all seemingly have a similar upbringing, they still approach life quite differently.

 

And lastly, I second Iconsmom post. I completely stopped letting Tracker meet strange dogs. I pull him off the path so the other dog and his owner have plenty of space to pass without the dogs getting close to each other.

Edited August 21, 2012 by christinepi

[KickReturn]

Kickreturn, you wrote:

 

The other day at the beach Hester broke up a fight. Three dogs started to bully and attack a super submissive (and gorgeous) Flatcoat.

 

It either was a fight or it was fun. If it was fun, then yes, I'd say Hester played fun police, and was bossy. But if it was a fight, then what Hester did was about something else. This is tricky to interpret without having seen it or knowing your dog.

 

 

Oh it was definitely not fun. One of the three attackers lunged just as Hester intervened. All three had their hackles up and the poor Flatcoat pinned itself to the ground terrified. My heart skipped a beat when Hester jumped into the middle of this but the attackers turned immediately and ran off. Hester chased them just a step or two and then returned to check on the Flatcoat and then walked straight back to me. Like I say I wish he could talk. Glad no dogs were harmed especially my boy.

[christinepi]

Kickreturn, you wrote:

 

The other day at the beach Hester broke up a fight. Three dogs started to bully and attack a super submissive (and gorgeous) Flatcoat.

 

It either was a fight or it was fun. If it was fun, then yes, I'd say Hester played fun police, and was bossy. But if it was a fight, then what Hester did was about something else. This is tricky to interpret without having seen it or knowing your dog.

 

 

Oh it was definitely not fun. One of the three attackers lunged just as Hester intervened. All three had their hackles up and the poor Flatcoat pinned itself to the ground terrified. My heart skipped a beat when Hester jumped into the middle of this but the attackers turned immediately and ran off. Hester chased them just a step or two and then returned to check on the Flatcoat and then walked straight back to me. Like I say I wish he could talk. Glad no dogs were harmed especially my boy.

 

Not sure why you let Hester get this close (and throw himself into) a fight? There was a happy ending, fortunately, but you couldn't know that would happen. Hester could have been seriously harmed. Was he not leashed? I would have done my darndest with Tracker to stay away as far as possible, because dogs like that can always turn on innocent bystanders.

[KickReturn]

Hester was off leash. We were at the beach. He is often off leash. It's been discussed in another thread. He is somewhat unusual in this regard. But don't worry, he is never off leash if there is a chance of encountering vehicular traffic.

[christinepi]

That's great, but personally, I'd be worried every time he's off leash that he'd be running into some other loonies and they'd take a bite out of his tender hide while I stand there helpless.

[JJNg]

Actually, dogs that we tend to call "fun police" and a dog breaking up a fight have many similarities. These dogs are all reacting to highly aroused interactions, and often use a calming signal that Turid Rugaas calls splitting. I don't believe that fun police dogs are actually trying to keep dogs from having fun or being bossy. Rather, they seem to get upset by the intense activity, perhaps concerned that it could escalate into a conflict.

 

Of the dogs that respond this way, some seem to be more skillful than others. Some are able to successfully use the splitting calming signal to get between the dogs and stop the play/conflict. Others try but are too stressed themselves and may actually nip or bite the other dogs and make things worse. Some just stay on the sidelines and bark.

 

My whippet has fun police tendencies, and he used to nip at the other dogs, and I'd have to keep him away or make sure he was muzzled when the others were playing. He's actually gotten better with time, and he still tries to step in when play gets too crazy. But now he just runs between the other two dogs and doesn't nip, so I rarely muzzle him anymore.

 

Just to be sure I'm understanding this correctly: are you saying the "pack" instinct is something that can be instilled or taken away by humans, as opposed to being an innate behavior? Or are you saying humans often do a lousy job at socializing dogs properly?

 

I'm not Chad, but if I'm interpreting his comments correctly, I agree with him. The body language and subtle signals by which dogs communicate with each other are largely instinctive and are developed and reinforced during their early interactions with mom and littermates. Even dogs who are not raised among other dogs will still show many of these signals, but because humans misunderstand, disregard, or never even notice, most of these signs, a lot of dogs stop using them. When we don't give dogs the chance to interact with each other naturally and interfere when they try, it creates dogs who are socially abnormal and don't know how to act appropriately around other dogs.

 

Racing greyhounds are raised differently from most other dogs in our society. Most other dogs are taken away from mom and littermates and sent to new homes at 6-12 weeks of age. Most greyhounds, on the other hand, are raised on farms where they are allowed to wean naturally, and the entire litter is kept together until at least 6 months old. This allows them to fully develop their natural canine communication skills, and I also believe it creates dogs who are generally more stable and adaptable.

 

Here are a couple sites with more info:

 

Farm Life

 

On the Farm: The Formative Months

 

The thing I don't quite get with all the superb socializing greyhounds get at the race track there are still great differences in how retired greyhounds interact with other strange dogs (be they greyhound or other breeds): there seems to be a wide range that runs the gamut from greyhound individuals being superbly comfortable and non-reactive to any other dog, to other greyhounds that bark and lunge at whatever other dog comes along. My guess is that they're just individuals, too, and just because they all seemingly have a similar upbringing, they still approach life quite differently.

 

I think you answered your own question. Socialization and experience is only one part of what makes up an individual's responses to life. The rest is a factor of genetics and individual personality.

 

These additional descriptions of Hester's behavior and interactions with other dogs make me think that he's a confident dog who is quite skilled at canine social interactions and is behaving very naturally and appropriately (from a canine perspective).

[KickReturn]

Actually, dogs that we tend to call "fun police" and a dog breaking up a fight have many similarities. These dogs are all reacting to highly aroused interactions, and often use a calming signal that Turid Rugaas calls splitting. I don't believe that fun police dogs are actually trying to keep dogs from having fun or being bossy. Rather, they seem to get upset by the intense activity, perhaps concerned that it could escalate into a conflict.

 

Of the dogs that respond this way, some seem to be more skillful than others. Some are able to successfully use the splitting calming signal to get between the dogs and stop the play/conflict. Others try but are too stressed themselves and may actually nip or bite the other dogs and make things worse. Some just stay on the sidelines and bark.

 

 

Yes. This is Hester exactly. He is a "splitter" and this explains some of his other more energetic interactions with other dogs. And from what I have seen so far he is very skillful. The situation is always managed quickly, de-escalation is immediate. Other dogs seem to comply quickly. To Hester's credit he only intervenes if there is a high level of aggression. He frequently observes rough but balanced play between dogs with no reaction other than that he is watchful. Of course I'd prefer if he would just ignore it or get involved in some play of his own.

 

But this brings me back to my original fear that one day some strange dog won't accept his behaviour. I'll continnue to watch closely. One thing that is helpful is that my area is populated many wonderful dogs with skillful and responsible owners. It really is a great place in which to own a dog.

Edited August 22, 2012 by KickReturn

[christinepi]

That's really cool, this break up thing. Hopefully Hester will never encounter truly nasty dogs.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

JJNg,

Couldnt have said it better myself, thank you.

[christinepi]

I'm still pondering the splitting behavior. What, I wonder, makes some dogs split up a fight, and others join a contentious and loaded situation (like the one Hester encountered) and make it worse for the dog picked on?

 

(The latter seems to happen more often. Then again, the "split" cases never end up at the vet, so don't go reported.)

 

Is it mostly dependent on the level of healthy socialization the participants have had? Almost seems that way.

[JJNg]

Of course I'd prefer if he would just ignore it or get involved in some play of his own.

 

But this brings me back to my original fear that one day some strange dog won't accept his behaviour.

 

This is always a potential risk if your dog is allowed to interact with strange (or even known) dogs. But I honestly think that risk is fairly low since your dog shows such appropriate body language. A dog who would object to his behavior would probably be one who is very poorly socialized, does not interact well with other dogs in general, and would likely have problems with most other dogs, not just Hester.

 

One of Turid Rugaas' observations is that dogs as a species usually prefer to avoid and prevent conflict. From observing interactions between well-socialized, and even some not-so-well socialized dogs, I believe this is true. For the most part, if dogs are left to interact without human interference, they do just fine. The number of dogs that are fine with other dogs when off-leash, but reactive when on-leash supports this idea. And dogs who are reactive or aggressive are usually very stressed and have been pushed beyond their limits. Before they got to that point, most of them were probably trying their best to avoid conflict as well, but were being misunderstood.

 

Some dogs, like the fun police and 'splitters' seem to have more of an urge to prevent conflicts between other individuals. Since Hester seems to have this tendency, if he sees a situation that he feels is too intense, he's going to step in. The only way to really prevent that would be to either keep him on leash, or teach him a really good recall or heel and make him stay with you when you walk past situations like that.

 

I'm still pondering the splitting behavior. What, I wonder, makes some dogs split up a fight, and others join a contentious and loaded situation (like the one Hester encountered) and make it worse for the dog picked on?

 

Is it mostly dependent on the level of healthy socialization the participants have had? Almost seems that way.

 

Yes, I believe it depends on proper socialization, but perhaps even more on individual personality. Many dogs also just ignore and don't get involved in conflicts between other dogs.

 

If you're interested in learning more about canine interactions and body language, I would highly recommend Turid Rugaas' book as well as her DVD on Calming Signals. Both are available on Amazon or DogWise. Better yet, if you ever get a chance to attend a seminar by Rugaas, you'll learn a lot more than what's in her published works. Unfortunately, her seminars here in the US are few and far between. There is so much more to how dogs communicate and interact with each other as well as people, and looking at it with a dominance/submission bias causes many of the subtle nuances to be missed.

[KickReturn]

Thanks for the excellent info. I'll look for Rugass' book.

 

I wonder if his size has any impact these interactions and whether it explains why other dogs "cooperate" with him. I have only once seen him interact with a dog that was larger than he is - a female Great Dane. They had quite a freindly meeting although Hester had to strain and stretch to get his head above hers lol.

 

Hester really is doing very well. Even among Greyhounds he could be considered a superb pet. If these are the worst of his problems I have done very well.

 

One last picture of him lording over "his" beach.