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Spriet's Behaviour - New Question Post #16


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*** Spriet is doing very well lately, but I posted another question in post #16***

 

I have some questions about Spriets behaviour.

 

Background story:

We got Spriet when she was 8 weeks old. The breeder didn't socialize much.

The first year she was with us were not fun. She was bossing Tibbie and Gunda and growling at us. When she was about a year and a half things went much better. I still don't totally get her, but over the years I learned bit by bit how to handle her. Except that still every once in a while I am totally clueless in how to handle the following situations. Nothing ever happend. She never bit us nor an other dog. She can be so sweet, but she can also suddenly be so angry.

 

Some examples that happened the last few years:

1) If she wants to steal a piece of paper or food and we say no or try to grab it out of her mouth she starts growling and snaps. But she's not food aggresive. I can touch her food bowl anytime.

2) During a walk Tibbie and Spriet are on leash. Spriet sees a cat. 75% of the time the first thing she does is snap and grab Tibbie.

3) Tibbie is never allowed to run in our yard. As soon as she tries to play, Spriet demands Tibbie to calm down (growling)

4) When Tibbie plays with a toy, Spriet growls, picks up Tibbies toy and goes to her bed.

5) When there are some bread crumbs on the floor, after every meal Tibbie wants to eat them. This can go right for 99 days, but on day 100 Spriet just snaps suddenly and attacks Tibbie.

 

I once made a video of Spriet snapping at Tibbie. I have to say this is pretty "calm", but it gives you an idea how it happens. (somehow you hear the sound first before you can see what happens) http://i299.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/annegts/film/spriettib.flv

 

Today it happened again. Tibbie wanted to play with a toy. Spriet came running to play with her (playbow, wagging her tail). Spriet steals the toy and starts playing with it. Tibbie is loosing some eyesight so she was (too) close to Spriet to get her toy back. Spriet growls and attacks Tibbie. My dad and I were 3 feet away. We scream and try to get Spriet off Tibbie. After a few seconds we get her off, but as Tibbie tries to get away Spriet snaps again. Finally my dad is able to get Spriet by her belly to lift her off Tibbie. Tibbie is totally panicking and tries to hide onder the table. Spriet still growls (at us, at Tibbie) for a few seconds. Then suddenly she's calm again, a bit uncertain and this time (never happend before) she was very wobbly on her legs. Tibbie had drool all over her neck, but there isn't any blood or wounds.

 

So my question is: is this preventable? If Spriet was serious she could have easily killed Tibbie, or at least Tibbie could need a few stitches. But that never happend. Why does she do this? Is there something we can do? What should we do when this happens?

 

These things occurs about 2 or 3 times a year. The rest of the time she's very sweet and there aren't any serious problems. Tibbie and Spriet tolerate each other, sometimes they lay on the same bed. When we are gone for a few hours, we can just leave them alone without muzzles. Sometimes when we come back they stole some food (most recent: tooth paste) and ate it together without any problems. Spriet also wants to play with Tibbie a lot lately. But Tibbie just hides under the table because she knows there is a chance Spriet attacks her.

 

Personally I feel like sometimes she doesn't know what she's doing. But I feel so sorry for Tibbie, the poor thing can't even play in the house when Spriet is around because she's scared to get attacked.

 

Any insight is appreciated.

Edited by AnneGTS

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

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Gut feelings are usually right, Spriet momentarily loses it with an adrenaline rush and is unable to ihhibt what should be a play response from becoming a serious challenge. Perhaps Spriet cannot see and hear too well?

Have the vet do a complete Thyroid check.

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Thyroid check won't hurt but I wouldn't bother. This is ordinary dog behavior -- Spriet wants all the fun and prey (toys, crumbs that she notices, etc.) to herself. When she sees a cat, she wants the cat but can't get it because she is on leash, so she redirects to Tibbie.

 

Up to you to monitor playing with toys, etc. so Tibbie has a chance to play without being hurt. I would not leave any toys out unless you are there to watch. Usually in this type of case, I'll have the dogs take turns with the toy or running in the yard. At first I might have to leash each dog and do some things to distract him/her while the other dog plays. Perhaps we'll practice sitting, shaking hands, etc. -- lots of "good dog!" and yummy little treats. Then trade places so the other dog gets to run or play with the toy. After some weeks the dog with me might not need the leash anymore -- they get used to this style of playing and taking turns.

 

Sometimes it helps to go for a reasonably long leash-walk first, so the dogs aren't as energetic when it's time to take turns.

Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in Illinois
We miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10.

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how old is spriet now???

has he gone thru any formal training?

when he was maturing was there another dog around to show him the ropes?

 

the reason i ask is i too have a pup adopted at a young age. both he and his female littermate, who we see regularly, both are missing that "social pack" component of their personalitites. they are fine w/ humans but in general missing the ability to play w/ other greys. felix seems to have developed speed since out of fear he was chased when a group got together. our female plays, bows and nips to run- felix's resonse out of not knowing what to do- a growl. the other male- non-track raised,who i know also is totally clueless about pack behavior. i think they really need their dam to teach them as pups.

 

as to the interaction w/ your other dog- some behavior mod should really help. a good trainer should be able to address that problem. even though it's sporatic you really want to eliminate the stimulus.i always look to a "professional" for tools to modify behavior.

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Thanks for the advice.

 

Spriet is now 9 years old. We went to obedience classes, she listens great, knows lots of tricks and loves to learn. She's not space agressive, I can do almost everything with her. But sometimes she just loses it. Gunda was the perfect dog, but somehow Spriet didn't learn from her. Spriet a bit insecure when it comes to strange dogs, mostly she wants her own space until she knows the other dog, then she's fine.

 

I would understand her just giving a warning growl when she wants Tibbie to stop playing (a bit like the growl in the video I posted). If Gunda growled every dog knew what she meant. Just one growl. But I think Spriet was crossing the line this morning, this wasn't a "normal" warning anymore. Without a warning she just attacks and doesn't stop. She throws Tibbie on the ground and we really have to drag her off Tibbie.

Edited by AnneGTS

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

anne_sas3gt_bbuveb.jpg

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I hear these issues in your description:

low frustration tolerance

low impulse control

redirecting aggression

 

The solution to all of them is some formal obedience training and "remedial" socialization. Teaching behaviors like wait and stay teach a dog impulse control very quickly, and frustration tolerance a bit later (depending on how quickly the dog gets frustrated). Correcting the first two helps to reduce the instances of redirecting. But learning to identify when your dog is reaching his tolerance thresholds in various scenarios means that when you know he's about to redirect, you preempt him by asking him to do something completely unrelated like sit-stay.

 

Edit: We posted at the same time, so now I see that Spriet's already had obedience training. That's great! I think what is missing is that you need to try to use it to preempt situations like I describe above. I don't follow Cesar Milan's methods, but one thing he teaches that I do like is this: get "in front of" a bad behavior. Which means that once an attack has started it's too late, so try to watch Spriet's face and body language very closely and when you see him tensing up/fixating/getting annoyed, then you redirect him to a different behavior.

Edited by jetcitywoman

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Visit Hound-Safe.com by Something Special Pet Supplies for muzzles and other dog safety products

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Thanks for all the help.

 

For me it's difficult to see when things go wrong exactly. First, I don't understand why she does it. She wants to play with Tibbie and a few seconds later she attacks out of nowhere..? For me it doesn't make sense. The problem is that 99% of the time everything goes right. But if it doesn't, Spriet doesn't give a warning first so for me it's nearly impossible to prevent it.

 

Most of the times it's just a matter of seconds. I saw Tibbie trying to play along with Spriet and before I could blink my eyes Spriet jumped on Tibbie, growling and smashing her on the ground.

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

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I have one that has misdirected aggression. When he first arrived the least little thing to cause excitement such as the door bell ringing, Mike or Kevin coming home, toys, just ordinary things would make him attack the dog nearest him. I would literally have to pull him off the other dog. I quickly learned to put the toys away. The dogs get to play with them individually and some have them in their crates. I learned to know where he was at all times and if I heard the bell ring or a knock at the door I went and grabbed him immediately and made him stay down and would walk him away from the other dogs so I could answer the door. He's been here 3 years and is a lot better but just like with Spriet I always keep an eye out for him and any time there is anything going on I will grab him first and then calm things down before letting go of him. You are right, they switch like turning off and on a light switch. I too would suggest putting the toys away and letting them each have time alone to play with them. He is also btw the most aggressive player I have when outside. He likes to run down the other dogs and really goes after them so he is now put out with my older dogs because they don't run much any more or he's put outside by himself. The rest of the time he's a dream and a very affectionate boy.

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Guest greytexplorer

Hi Anne :wave

 

So sorry to hear that you're having all this trouble with Spriet.

Have you taken S to the vet to make sure there are no health issues?

Would you consider another round of obedience classes for S, or learning how to run an obstacle course?

I am certainly no expert, but I'm wondering if Spriet's brain needs some redirecting/reprogramming/rewiring.

 

Hugs,

Pat

ps......still planning on coming to Luxembourg in June 2013!!! Maybe we can meet!?

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It is the lack of frustration training and just getting "amped up" too quickly where "fun" turns into "suddenly not fun" and might feel threatening to her.

 

I would think that doing more training to get the frustration threshhold to rise (take longer to go beyond the point of "snap") is in order. Does Spriet know things like "wait" before eating, before going through an open door, before running to get the toy you just threw for her? If you can get her to understand that waiting doesn't mean that what she wants will go away she might improve in some behaviors.

 

As a management, I think if your two dogs are playing, only let them play for very exceptionally short periods before you call everyone to calm down. Short enough sessions where she doesn't have a chance to go beyond her threshhold to change to aggression. Our Allie had a similar switch when being touched or played with, and we've worked hard to get her to stay calm by really shortening the time we would do things like rub her belly or pet her back (she would go from "this is great" to a sudden freeze and then snap because it suddenly seemed to scare her). Try to stop all interactions when everyone still feels good about the interaction, so you build up good feelings about the playtime, not the bad memories "I remember feeling threatened...should I feel threatened? I feel threatened!!" and another snap/growl/strike out. Build up those good times memories, and then slowly allow slightly longer play sessions, still watching like a hawk and stopping before things get out of hand. When you break it up, break it up as happily as you can, so playtime is broken but everyone thinks "yay, now we get to do something else fun!" Until then, you may want to completely separate the dogs when you play with one of them, so there is no potential wariness or aggression issues there. Short individual play sessions, if you can block one off from the play area, might help Spriet's ability to play and keep it fun too.

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Thyroid check won't hurt but I wouldn't bother. This is ordinary dog behavior -- Spriet wants all the fun and prey (toys, crumbs that she notices, etc.) to herself. When she sees a cat, she wants the cat but can't get it because she is on leash, so she redirects to Tibbie.

 

Up to you to monitor playing with toys, etc. so Tibbie has a chance to play without being hurt. I would not leave any toys out unless you are there to watch. Usually in this type of case, I'll have the dogs take turns with the toy or running in the yard. At first I might have to leash each dog and do some things to distract him/her while the other dog plays. Perhaps we'll practice sitting, shaking hands, etc. -- lots of "good dog!" and yummy little treats. Then trade places so the other dog gets to run or play with the toy. After some weeks the dog with me might not need the leash anymore -- they get used to this style of playing and taking turns.

 

Sometimes it helps to go for a reasonably long leash-walk first, so the dogs aren't as energetic when it's time to take turns.

Yep. There are ways to modify her behavior on all fronts, but management is also really useful with these types of issues. I can't type out all of the instructions to work on each issue, but just to give you a vague idea on one issue - for the prey drive, you can just start feeding her every time she sees prey (you'll need to take her outside alone to work on this). Use very high value treats (cooked chicken, hot dog pieces, etc.). Anytime prey is in sight, feed feed feed. Prey is gone, stop feeding. Eventually she associates prey with food and instead of reacting/redirecting, she will look to you for her treats. You will always want to carry treats on your walks with you so you can continue to reinforce this although once she has it you can probably step down to lower value (dry) treats.

 

Similar ways to condition her to feel differently about Trippie's presence when she has food or toys. I think your best bet if you want to work on changing her behavior rather than just managing is to do a private session with the behaviorist who uses positive methods. I like the IAABC website for that, but I don't know if they have international members or not.

Edited by NeylasMom

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Thanks so much for the replies!

 

Once we explained the situation to our vet and he said this is probably some sort of instinct. Not very much you can do. Don't punish her, she probably acts before she thinks. Other than some foot/leg/shoulder injuries and tummy issues she's healthy.

 

Re: training. I practice tricks almost every day. I think she gives me a paw about 25 times a day :lol I'm also starting a new class with her tomorrow, a German sports called Treibball (ball herding). I hope she likes it, can't wait to try it out.

I've trained "wait" before going through an open door before, but might try to do that more often.

 

Fruitycake: That's a good suggestion. Your example is very clear, I will try that.

 

ps......still planning on coming to Luxembourg in June 2013!!! Maybe we can meet!?

Sure, are you planning to come to the Netherlands also? Would love to meet you.

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

anne_sas3gt_bbuveb.jpg

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Thanks so much for the replies!

 

Once we explained the situation to our vet and he said this is probably some sort of instinct. Not very much you can do. Don't punish her, she probably acts before she thinks.

 

That's just not true (aside from the not punishing her part). :(

 

Wouldn't sleep/startle aggression in our greys being a form of an instinctual behavior? And yet I've totally changed Zuri's reaction from barking, growling or snapping when startled awake to looking up with the "Hey, where's my treat" expression. A couple of weeks ago my new mixed breed foster Skye literally ran over him while he was stretched out sleeping on the couch (no joke, she was mid play sprint and did a full lap around the living room using the sectional for part of it and she ran right over him). Not even a growl, he popped his head up and looked generally unphased by it entirely. :blink: That's not to say that he never snarks or that our work will ever be done - I keep a box of biscuits by the couch so I can reward him periodically when he's woken up, but the incidents are incredibly rare. It's amazing, he and Violet actually occasionally snuggle now as a result, something I never thought I'd see with him. :blah

 

Can you PM me your email? I'll send you a great Pat Miller article I have on resource guarding amongst dogs. It has step by step instructions on how to teach her to react differently.

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Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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Guest greytexplorer

Re: training. I'm also starting a new class with her tomorrow, a German sports called Treibball (ball herding). I hope she likes it, can't wait to try it out.

 

Anne!---this sounds like fun!!! Please take a video if possible and post it here so we can all enjoy it with you and Spriet!

 

ps......still planning on coming to Luxembourg in June 2013!!! Maybe we can meet!?

Sure, are you planning to come to the Netherlands also? Would love to meet you.

 

I think the dates are June 21-22. We didn't make it to the Netherlands on our last trip, so I'm pretty sure we'll go there this time.

Itinerary is not firm and I've got time to work out the details. Hope you'll be around at that time.

Edited by greytexplorer
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  • 1 year later...

Update: Spriet is doing very well lately. We had a few incidents where she would redirect at Tibbie but she's getting better and better.

 

I do have another question. My friend has two Whippets, about 2 and 3 years old. Spriet LOVES those Whippets. And she will tolerate almost everything.

While Spriet doesn't want Tibbie to run and play, she lets those Whippets do almost everything. Here's a video of when they come to our house:

If Tibbie would behave like that she would be pissed off (bumping into her etc.). Why does she tolerate so much from these Whippets? Tibbie is usually very gentle and calm and those Whippets are not. But still it looks like Tibbie gets blamed for everything she does and the Whippets can do what they want.

 

For example, Tibbie is losing her eyesight. We once put a blanket over Spriet because she was cold and Tibbie wanted to lay on top of the blanket. Result: Spriet growling, snapping and fighting. Luckily there weren't any bite marks on Tibbie but it was scary.

A few weeks ago the black Whippets was running around the house and she ran over Spriet while she was laying down. Spriet gave a short growl and that's it.

 

Another issue: food. Like I said in post #1 it can cause Spriet to freak out and "attack" Tibbie. A few weeks ago I accidently dropped some treats and all the dogs were sniffing at the same spot. Spriet didn't even bother to share her treats with the Whippets. And when my friend gives Spriet a treat and one of the Whippets tries to grab it out of her mouth she doesn't care.

 

Can anyone give me some thoughts or insights in why she tolerates so much from these Whippets and why she doesn't tolerate anything from Tibbie?

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

anne_sas3gt_bbuveb.jpg

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I can't tell you why it happens, but you're certainly not alone with this situation. We're babysitting another greyhound, Misty, right now. She can do things that Joe would never let Brees get away with. Yesterday, she jumped off the bed and landed practically on top of him, and he didn't even raise his head. Brees would've been given hell for that! (Actually, she wouldn't have done it, because he makes sure she gives him lots of space.)

 

Brees, on the other hand, is seriously miffed at having a female interloper around. She won't let Misty in the kitchen by herself, gathers up the toys when Misty wants to play, and stares her down when she gets too close. She's not violent, just being a brat. It's pretty funny.

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Guest Giselle

If I had an endless vat of money, I would put my heart and soul into exploring the frontal lobes of these dogs with serious impulse control problems. My Dobermutt explodes into aggression very similarly and does not think when she does it. I have had to intervene in multiple serious attacks, and it is shocking the way you can see her mind suddenly "flick back on" after an attack, after the event. I firmly believe that these type of knee-jerk-serious-aggressive acts are due to some physical defect in the brain, and, because of that, it takes significantly more training and practice to modify their behaviors. It is not, however, incurable, as your vet claimed. Most vets know little-to-nothing about behavior. Many days, I am often bitterly disappointed by what my colleagues say about dog behavior & training. Impulse control can be taught, and it can help mitigate many symptoms of aggression. But it takes time, practice, and skill.

 

As for why your dog tolerates some but not others... It could be due to a huge range of factors, and we just really don't know for sure. However, remember, all dogs are individuals and their social dynamics with each other are just that - dynamic. It changes all the time. It could be that Spriet and Tibbie just don't share compatible temperaments or body language. Maybe they just don't communicate with each other well. Or, remember that Spriet lives with Tibbie all day long every day. Some days, Spriet could have been more aroused by things going on outside or maybe she was in some type of age-related pain. That last bump or annoyance by Tibbie could have been the last straw VS the whippets are only around sparingly and don't experience the full spectrum of Spriet's arousal problems. The Whippets are around Spriet less frequently than Tibbie, so the Whippets have fewer chances to "make mistakes". And you said that these attacks occur 2-3 times a year, so imagine how many "mistakes" Tibbie actually made before Spriet tried to attack her. Tibbie could have bumped into Spriet 100-200 times before you actually saw an attack. Lastly, Spriet may understand that the Whippets are younger and may have some kind of instinctual tolerance for puppy antics. There could be many many reasons.

 

What is important now is not to question "Why is this happening?" because the honest truth is that we'll probably never know. What is important is that Spriet has already had the opportunity to learn and practice behavior. You need to do simple things at home to address the problem, like resource management and like impulse control training. While Treibball sounds fun to train, it doesn't sound like it'll help the problems at home. For example, I noticed in your video that Spriet does not offer automatic behaviors to you before you let her out the door. Before she gets access to resources, Spriet should automatically offer you focused behaviors like "Sit" or "Watch me" so that she understands to look at you for guidance VS react to stimuli without thinking. All of the advice above (by the other GT posters) is exactly what I would suggest, too. Work on impulse control training specifically. Practice often. Don't let your guard down.

Edited by Giselle
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Spriet isn't spayed.

 

It's possible that Spriet just doesn't understand Tibbie's body language. Spriet was always very insecure around other dogs. She often growled as soon as a dog was too close. But with these Whippets she never had any problems..

 

 

What is important now is not to question "Why is this happening?" because the honest truth is that we'll probably never know. What is important is that Spriet has already had the opportunity to learn and practice behavior. You need to do simple things at home to address the problem, like resource management and like impulse control training. While Treibball sounds fun to train, it doesn't sound like it'll help the problems at home. For example, I noticed in your video that Spriet does not offer automatic behaviors to you before you let her out the door. Before she gets access to resources, Spriet should automatically offer you focused behaviors like "Sit" or "Watch me" so that she understands to look at you for guidance VS react to stimuli without thinking. All of the advice above (by the other GT posters) is exactly what I would suggest, too. Work on impulse control training specifically. Practice often. Don't let your guard down.

Thanks for the advice. I took the Treibball lessons about 1.5 year ago and after that we also did 2 "fun" classes (mix of obedience and agility). What really improved is the bond between Spriet and me. Spriet has always been very independent, never paying attention to me, rarely wanted to be petted and being a bit distant. Because of those trainings she learned to trust me more and I notice she listens to me much better and she actually trusts me now. The trainer (who didn't know Spriet's whole background story) even gave us a compliment about the trust she has in me :)

 

And I notice the improvement. When in the past she could be really stressed out if an other dog approached, I notice she will now pay more attention to me. If I stay calm and say it's ok, she trusts me and stays calm. Whenever I notice she gets overwhelmed I call her name and then she will calm down. That's a huge improvement already. :)

But still, I will try to work more on impulse control and her redirecting agression. Sometimes (usually around Tibbie) she still is unpredictable to me. We're definitely going to work on that!

Anne, Sasha & Tapas. Spriet (2002-2015), Tibbie (2000-2015) and Gunda (1996-2009)

www.sighthoundgoodies.com

anne_sas3gt_bbuveb.jpg

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