If You Can Spare A Good Thought For Nube.it's Osteo.xrays

[Xan]

Adding my sympathy and good thoughts to the mix, and sending loads of hugs to you and Anubis.

[Guest patterpaws]

You have some huge fans out in Washington too, we are rooting for you! I'm glad he's feeling better today and will keep my fingers crossed that the oncology team has helpful input. :goodluck :goodluck

 

Your comment about age is very true. Its bad enough to get this diagnosis with an older dog- would be even worse with a young pup. No matter what happens we gotta be grateful for the time we've had with them.

[Houndtime]

Good thoughts for you and your boy.

[45MPHK9]

We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

Kim, is Nube still just taking the one 100mg. Gabapentin? I only ask because Bee was taking 900mg a day to help manage her awful pain.

[4My2Greys]

We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

Kim, is Nube still just taking the one 100mg. Gabapentin? I only ask because Bee was taking 900mg a day to help manage her awful pain.

 

I was wondering the same thing. Nadir was just recently put on it for a limp he has. My vet started him at 100mg twice a day and I was given the okay to up the dose to 150mg and he is not even dealing with the pain of osteosarcoma.

[TwiggysMom]

I'm glad Nube is still enjoying all of his snuggle time!

 

I hope you have a good appt at the clinic in BG. Unless your vet has heard specifically from them about what they do in similar cases, I suspect he/she is just giving a personal opinion or hunch. I'm sure I remember others doing chemo without having a biopsy. Also, as others have said, chemo for dogs is generally tolerated very well. I hope you at least have the option to consider that.

 

One more thing, I agree that 100mg gabapentin is a very low dose. Twiggy was taking that for a while b/c of her limp on her LR leg. All the vets I talked to agreed that that is a low dose even for a dog her size (54lbs). And, usually, for osteo, they prescribe both tramadol and gabapentin together. It might also be a good idea to include a NSAID like Deramaxx, Metacam, or Piroxicam - these are believed to have some anti-tumor properties. I think the specialists will be able to put together a more solid pain management plan for Nube.

 

Kisses to your handsome boy!

[Guest kirstenbergren]

I'm so sorry to hear about Nube. Give him lots of hugs for me. We are sending lots of good thoughts your way.

[nancy14]

Kim, I don't know what to say. Nube is such a sweet boy and I know how much you and Bruce love and care for your dogs. Our first grey, KC, a beautiful red fawn, developed osteo, left front. She was almost 13 at the time. We opted for amputation without chemo. We got 8 months. There was no Greytalk at the time so there was no one to provide advice and support which is so important. Embrace the fact that there are so many people that care and feel your pain. And give Nube an extra snuggle from me.

[NeylasMom]

We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

Kim, is Nube still just taking the one 100mg. Gabapentin? I only ask because Bee was taking 900mg a day to help manage her awful pain.

I wasn't going to say anything because I feel like I've been sort of harping lately, but I think your vet is being too conservative with the pain medication. I would increase the Gabapentin to at least twice a day, if not 3 to start and consider adding an NSAID if you haven't already. Broken record, but good link to palliative care in first post of osteo thread - talks about types of osteo pain and how different meds are needed (even in lower doses) to address all of them.

 

Hope Nube is feeling back to himself soon!

[Remolacha]

no advice , just

[Guest hlpnhounds]

We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

Kim, is Nube still just taking the one 100mg. Gabapentin? I only ask because Bee was taking 900mg a day to help manage her awful pain.

I wasn't going to say anything because I feel like I've been sort of harping lately, but I think your vet is being too conservative with the pain medication. I would increase the Gabapentin to at least twice a day, if not 3 to start and consider adding an NSAID if you haven't already. Broken record, but good link to palliative care in first post of osteo thread - talks about types of osteo pain and how different meds are needed (even in lower doses) to address all of them.

 

Hope Nube is feeling back to himself soon!

 

I agree with this too. I don't care if Nube is "acting' painful or not----Cancer sucks and Cancer Hurts. Keep that wonderful boy as pain-free as you can for the time he has left.

[Guest LindsaySF]

The Gabapentin can take a little while to get into their system. It has to build up a bit to start working. I think 100 mg is a very low dose, I would definitely ask for more. When Andy was diagnosed with spinal pain, he was taking 600 mg a day.

 

Why did your vet stop the Tramadol? If Nube is limping or pacing then he's in pain , and the Tramadol will help. Rogan was on 300 mg a day after his toe amputations. With Andy's back he was on a combo of 300 mg Tramadol, 600 mg Gabapentin, and 100 mg Rimadyl per day. He never had any issues with sedation, but I know it really helped his pain.

 

For something like osteo I would be extremely generous with the pain meds.

 

Hugs

[RaineysMom]

Kim, I don't know what to say. Nube is such a sweet boy and I know how much you and Bruce love and care for your dogs. Our first grey, KC, a beautiful red fawn, developed osteo, left front. She was almost 13 at the time. We opted for amputation without chemo. We got 8 months. There was no Greytalk at the time so there was no one to provide advice and support which is so important. Embrace the fact that there are so many people that care and feel your pain. And give Nube an extra snuggle from me.

 

thanks, Nancy with Nube it's not so much his age, it's that his back end is so weak we don't think he could make a go of just 3 legs

 

We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

Kim, is Nube still just taking the one 100mg. Gabapentin? I only ask because Bee was taking 900mg a day to help manage her awful pain.

I wasn't going to say anything because I feel like I've been sort of harping lately, but I think your vet is being too conservative with the pain medication. I would increase the Gabapentin to at least twice a day, if not 3 to start and consider adding an NSAID if you haven't already. Broken record, but good link to palliative care in first post of osteo thread - talks about types of osteo pain and how different meds are needed (even in lower doses) to address all of them.

 

Hope Nube is feeling back to himself soon!

 

he is on an NSAID, Rimadyl -- 75 mg 2 x day. He's been on that (and the Tramadol) since he first started limping on 6/24. We just added the Gabapentin this past Sunday.

 

The Gabapentin can take a little while to get into their system. It has to build up a bit to start working. I think 100 mg is a very low dose, I would definitely ask for more. When Andy was diagnosed with spinal pain, he was taking 600 mg a day.

 

Why did your vet stop the Tramadol? If Nube is limping or pacing then he's in pain , and the Tramadol will help. Rogan was on 300 mg a day after his toe amputations. With Andy's back he was on a combo of 300 mg Tramadol, 600 mg Gabapentin, and 100 mg Rimadyl per day. He never had any issues with sedation, but I know it really helped his pain.

 

For something like osteo I would be extremely generous with the pain meds.

 

Hugs

 

our vet (when I spoke to him Monday) said he said to stop the Tramadol because he was afraid it would make him "too sleepy" with the Gab. After going through all the weird med issues with Rainey (she got mega-wonky whenever we added/increased dosage of her meds and couldn't tolerate pain meds), I could understand his concern -- but Nube hasn't shown ANY issues with anything so far and when I told him I had gotten him back on the Tramado he didn't have any problems with me doing that. I'm personally not comfortable changing medications without first talking to the vet but I agree I think the dose is too low. When I said I thought the dose was low compared to what I'd seen on the Internet, he said it was actually a "middle" dose and NOT low (I don't think I agree with him). I don't see an issue with increasing it but would run it past him first.

 

we do see an oncologist on Wednesday (crap, that's STILL a week away ) and maybe they'll change/adjust the meds.

 

he really seemed to enjoy the short "walkie" in the park yesterday, but unfortunately later last night, he got up and walked over to the gate into the kitchen (about 10 feet from where we were sitting on the couch) and when Bruce got up to see if he needed to go out, he got excited and kind of ran (best he could I guess) up to Bruce and yelped pretty loud then I'm glad he felt enough to be that happy but I sure don't want this to get any worse, or absolutely not to have the bone break

 

I did get some super snuggle time this morning, at least. He used my head as his pillow and I got to spoon him. What a sweetie he is

Edited July 19, 2012 by RaineysMom

[JJNg]

I'm personally not comfortable changing medications without first talking to the vet but I agree I think the dose is too low.

 

I understand not wanting to change meds without your vet's ok. Of course, I prefer my clients not adjust medication without running it by me first. However, if you feel that Nube's pain management is not adequate at this point, I would encourage you to call your vet today to discuss it. It's the owner's job to be your pet's advocate, and if what the vet is doing is insufficient, you need to be assertive about speaking up and pushing for something more. If you feel that Nube's pain is adequately controlled now, then I won't say any more on this matter. But I'm not sure this is true from what you've posted, and I don't agree with relying on pain to restrict activity.

 

When I said I thought the dose was low compared to what I'd seen on the Internet, he said it was actually a "middle" dose and NOT low (I don't think I agree with him).

 

This is the dosing for gabapentin from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook, 7th ed:

---------

Dogs:

As an analgesic:

1. For adjunctive treatment of chronic or cancer pain: 3 mg/kg PO once a day (Lascelles 2003)

2. 1.25–10 mg/kg PO q24h (once daily) (Hardie 2006)

3. Most VIN consultants recommend doses of 5–10 mg/kg PO 2–3 times a day for analgesia. (Rishniw 2007)

4. 2.5–10 mg/kg (up to 15 mg/kg) PO 1–3 times a day. (Posner & Papich 2009)

---------

 

I usually dose gabapentin based on #3 above, which is what most vets who use it much have found to be most useful in clinical practice. I'm not sure how much Nube weighs, but for a 70 lb dog, 100 mg is about 3 mg/kg, which is pretty much right at the low end of the dose range.

[DaisyDoodle]

I'd give Dr. Radcliffe a call in Wheeling. He's an orthopedic surgeon, Wheeling track vet, pain management specialist and greyhound owner. He will almost certainly help you via phone to get a handle on palliative pain management.

 

I'd ask all the vets about fentanyl patches. It's a synthetic opioid. Especially, try Mylan's generic. Drug is mixed with adhesive so drug reservoir can't break and give an overdose. Also, being generic, it's cheaper than Duragesic (brand name fentanyl.)

 

Gentle hugs to your pup.

[carronstar]

Just checking in for Nube updates. Hugs to you all. Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. So happy to hear that you are getting cuddles.

[RaineysMom]

I'm personally not comfortable changing medications without first talking to the vet but I agree I think the dose is too low.

 

I understand not wanting to change meds without your vet's ok. Of course, I prefer my clients not adjust medication without running it by me first. However, if you feel that Nube's pain management is not adequate at this point, I would encourage you to call your vet today to discuss it. It's the owner's job to be your pet's advocate, and if what the vet is doing is insufficient, you need to be assertive about speaking up and pushing for something more. If you feel that Nube's pain is adequately controlled now, then I won't say any more on this matter. But I'm not sure this is true from what you've posted, and I don't agree with relying on pain to restrict activity.

 

When I said I thought the dose was low compared to what I'd seen on the Internet, he said it was actually a "middle" dose and NOT low (I don't think I agree with him).

 

This is the dosing for gabapentin from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook, 7th ed:

---------

Dogs:

As an analgesic:

1. For adjunctive treatment of chronic or cancer pain: 3 mg/kg PO once a day (Lascelles 2003)

2. 1.25–10 mg/kg PO q24h (once daily) (Hardie 2006)

3. Most VIN consultants recommend doses of 5–10 mg/kg PO 2–3 times a day for analgesia. (Rishniw 2007)

4. 2.5–10 mg/kg (up to 15 mg/kg) PO 1–3 times a day. (Posner & Papich 2009)

---------

 

I usually dose gabapentin based on #3 above, which is what most vets who use it much have found to be most useful in clinical practice. I'm not sure how much Nube weighs, but for a 70 lb dog, 100 mg is about 3 mg/kg, which is pretty much right at the low end of the dose range.

 

have a call in to the vet but he isn't there today so I won't know anything until tomorrow. Nube is 82 lbs. I'm thinking we should add another 100mg pill at night, so 2 100mg pills total per day. He seems to be tolerating the drug well (not wonky), knock on wood.

 

Just checking in for Nube updates. Hugs to you all. Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. So happy to hear that you are getting cuddles.

 

unfortunately, he is limping FAR worse now today, I'm thinking from his little problem last night (see post #188 for what happened). He also has not pooped yet, which is unsual for him (he's an Excellent Pooper). It is KILLING me to see him like this. Since he isn't yelping (except for last night) I don't know HOW much pain he is actually in...but if the severe limp is any indication, then I'd have to say BAD. I JUST WANT THE MEDS TO START WORKING!!! this is SO frustrating and upsetting...and we STILL have a week until he can get into the specialty vet.

[Guest patterpaws]

Argh, poor Nube!! For whatever its worth, my vet told me that at Tristan's weight (85lbs) I could give him up to 4 tramadols at a time, 2 or 3 times a day. So that would be 200mg total since each pill is 50mg. I really hope the pain meds kick in for him. Tristan had a similar incident a few nights ago when he yelped really loud, its so scary. We're thinking of you, I really really wish I could do more!

[TheFullHouse]

What a heartbreaking journey you and Nube are taking. My heart goes out to you and I've got you both in my prayers.

[NeylasMom]

Is there not another vet at the practice who you can speak with?

 

I would at the very least increase the Gabapentin.

[robinw]

Kim, all I know is that the vet who sent Phene to the bridge said that osteo is extremely painful and that even if they aren't showing pain, they are experiencing it...a lot of it. Can you speak to a different vet at Nube's clinic? What is the worst that could happen if you increased his meds a bit? Is there anybody here who can answer that question, as I can't?

 

You all continue to be in my thoughts.

[carronstar]

I second Robin's suggestion of upping his meds a bit. My heart is just breaking for you all.

[Xan]

So awful, to see our babies in pain, and not have a definitive answer! I hope you can get the okay to raise Anubis' pain meds, and get that pain DOWN.

[45MPHK9]

I JUST WANT THE MEDS TO START WORKING!!! this is SO frustrating and upsetting...and we STILL have a week until he can get into the specialty vet.

 

Kim, I hate to keep posting this but Bee took 900mg of Gabapentin daily (plus Deramaxx and Tramadol) and she only weighed 62 pounds. I don't think you'll see any improvement with the tiny amount of Gabapentin Nube is getting right now.

Edited July 19, 2012 by 45MPHK9

[Greydawg]

So sorry your poor boy is going through this terrible thing.