If You Can Spare A Good Thought For Nube.it's Osteo.xrays

[juliemac]

Kim --- if you can't get meds from your vet early tomorrow, please PM me and I'll meet you with some NSAIDs to tide you through the weekend ... probably Deramaxx since that's what I have most of. Unfortunately I can't help you with Gabapentin ... I don't have a supply of that. I have extra Tramadol if you need it, as well as some metacam if Nube doesn't do well with Deramax.

[silverfish]

I've been thinking about Nube and you.

 

I don't have much useful advice except to say that it sounds as if he does need more proactive pain relief. I'd lean on the vet a bit if they're reluctant - especially having been timid on this point for one of my dogs in the past and learned from that.

 

And if we're being blunt; remember that dogs hide pain well. If my dog were showing signs of a great amount of pain, then under the circumstances, if I couldn't get it down to a manageable level quickly, I'd be thinking of letting him go.

 

That isn't meant to be a criticism, by the way. I'm not there with you and Nube and I can't tell you what is right (only you can do that), it's just a thought.

 

I must say that I'm surprised to hear that they won't do chemo without a biopsy. My understanding was that OSU don't do biopsies because of the risk of fracture - this would be especially true of a dog who was not a good amputation candidate. What I heard was that they'll do a needle aspiration but not a biopsy. Can you get your vet to talk with OSU about this? If he can get chemo or radiation, it will help to reduce his pain levels and make him a lot more comfortable, and maybe you'd have more time with him.

 

[Guest masa]

many many prayers and good thoughts!

[robinw]

Kim, I will also be blunt, if that's OK. When I sent Phoenix to the bridge, the vet said that dogs are often good at hiding pain. She said that osteo is an extremely painful disease and that she could have guaranteed that Phoenix was in a lot more pain than he was letting on, and his pain was obvious enough to let him go

[galgrey]

My heart breaks for you.

[TheFullHouse]

Continuing to think good thoughts for the two of you.

[Charlies_Dad]

More good thoughts for Nube and you Kim.

[RaineysMom]

hi guys, thanks again for the kind words and for the help and support -- they REALLY mean a lot.

 

Nube is at the vet right now getting his chest x-rayed, and I'm praying nothing is found. Bruce will as the vet about getting him on gabapentin, since so many have said it helped a lot. I'm not sure he'll want to do it and may tell us the oncology doctor can decide on it -- but I want him on it.

 

this disease sucks SO bad. We just don't know the right thing to do. Do chemo -- will it make him feel like crap and we'll be sorry he's feeling so lousy? Do radiation -- will it help and is it worth it? Do nothing and just treat the pain -- is he in a lot? I have no idea. He's limping very badly but (knock on wood) doesn't cry out (yet, I'm guessing). If he is in pain, great pain, I would never forgive myself.

 

[mychip1]

Kim....my heart is breaking for you. All of the questions and decisions are just crushing....but through all of it, trust your instincts. You know what's best for your hound as you know every bit about who he is better than anyone else......Veterinarian or otherwise.......

 

And no matter what, your boy knows that there is no more love in the world than he has experienced in his life.....

[EllenEveBaz]

Just sending hugs.

[juliemac]

Kim ---

 

my friend's girlie just completed a full cycle (13 treatments) of chemo for lymphoma, and many of the days following Grace's treatments were spent at my house. Grace did get to the point where she didn't want to go to the vet, but I will say that she did not experience the violent illness that we (humans) usually associated with chemo treatments. Be prepared for many more trips to the yard to pee for the first 24h after treatment, though.

 

OSU may be able to help with the treatment protocols btw ... its worth checking.

 

How's Nube doing after her vet visit?

 

Gentle hugs and prayers are still flowing your way.

[Walliered]

Kim, I just lost my grey to bone cancer in the shoulder 3 months ago. Two days after the diagnosis I asked my vet to end his pain. He was hurting very badly. It is much better to end it one day too early than one day too late. Hugs.

[JJNg]

I suspect your questions may be rhetorical as you contemplate the options, but just wanted to share a few thoughts that may, hopefully, help.

 

this disease sucks SO bad. We just don't know the right thing to do. Do chemo -- will it make him feel like crap and we'll be sorry he's feeling so lousy?

 

The goals and expected side effects of chemo in human medicine and veterinary medicine are very different. Jane did a great job explaining this difference in her response to you in the Osteo thread. I agree with Jane's comments completely, and the patient's I've seen undergo chemo support this as well. I once asked our local oncologist about this, and she said that about 50% of the dogs she does chemo on have absolutely no side effects - you wouldn't know they were getting chemo at all. I met an an Afghan hound at an amateur race meet who in remission from lymphoma, still undergoing chemo, and participated in the meet with the blessings of her oncologist.

 

Most of the other 50% of dogs getting chemo have fairly mild, manageable side effects (mild nausea, decreased appetite, diarrhea, etc). And less than 5-10% experience side effects significant enough to require hospitalization for treatment. If your dog is one who has side effects, you always have the option of stopping chemo, going to a lower dose, or switching protocols to find something that is more tolerable. Deciding to start chemo does not commit you to finishing the course. In veterinary oncology, quality of life is always the priority.

 

Do radiation -- will it help and is it worth it?

 

Radiation seems to be pretty effective for pain relief for most dogs, but it tends to be very expensive. I believe vjgrey's Gabe was one who had excellent results with radiation treatments.

 

Do nothing and just treat the pain -- is he in a lot? I have no idea. He's limping very badly but (knock on wood) doesn't cry out (yet, I'm guessing). If he is in pain, great pain, I would never forgive myself.

 

I hate to say it, but if he's limping very badly, he's in significant pain. IME, most dogs do not cry out with chronic, persistent pain. They are more likely to cry out with acute pain, or sudden sharp pains. This is why it can be so difficult to recognize arthritis pain in dogs. When pain is always present, they just deal with it. Some of the more subtle signs of chronic pain include painting, restlessness, decreased appetite, decreased activity, being slow to rise or lie down, reluctance to navigate stairs or climb/jump onto furniture, etc.

[Guest patterpaws]

Sending more loving thoughts for you and Nube. I don't have any advice, I just wanted to say that I share in the indecision and sorrow. Its so hard to know what to do. I know we want to do whats best for our hounds, but the answers are not clear. I'm agonizing over similar decisions now too. This is not easy.

[Guest GenetJen]

Just wanted to let you know that I'm with you. My 11 year old baby, Maya, was diagnosed last Monday. Struggling with similar decisions as you and it's breaking my heart. What presented as a seemingly neurological problem (bad enough) turned out to be osteo. http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/287917-fce-fibrocartilaginous-embolism/ I had no idea it was so common.

 

We're currently on a regimen of Tramadol, Rimadyl, and Gabapentin. She's acted much more energetic the last couple days, so that makes me happy. Like you, I don't want to let go, but don't want it to get to the point of fracture or horrible pain. It's a terrible call to make. I'm doing my best. Also wanted to let you know about this: http://www.litecure.com/companion/ Laser therapy. I don't think it's been mentioned, but I might be wrong. It could be coincidental, but Maya was more bouncy and tail-waggy than she'd been in a month after we had it done. I'm thinking about going back for another treatment. My vet did say they don't always use it for cancer bc it can theoretically make the tumor grow faster (due to increased blood flow). However, for dogs with osteo on palliative care, it's a good short-term pain relief option. Just thought I'd mention for what it's worth.

 

[racindog]

Still praying for you all. You asked about the chemo. When Ivy had it she did not suffer any side effects and it may very well have helped her. It never had any observable effect on her attitude other than that perhaps if it was helping her she remained brighter and happier. So I wouldn't be concerned about chemo side effects. Course I reckon different chemo drugs may have different effects but they told me that chemo was different in dogs and people and they were right-at least in Ivy's case.

[carronstar]

I wish I could give you all a giant hug. Keeping Nube and his loving humans in my thoughts and prayers. So very glad I had the chance to meet him at Bluegrass.

[teri_d]

just sending thoughts and prayers - been there, done that and it just sucks

[TheFullHouse]

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers.

[Guest vahoundlover]

Kim, I am so sorry to read this. Whatever decision you make, you are making it out of love for Nube. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[robinw]

Kim, how are you and Nube doing?

[RaineysMom]

Kim, how are you and Nube doing?

 

hi guys,

 

Nube's about the same we actually brought him in Saturday afternoon for his chest x-ray (CLEAR! ) and got him some Gabapentin. We started that Sunday morning (he's on 100mg 1 x day) and the vet told us to stop the tramadol, but by 10am we gave him one. The past couple days he was getting very anxious and restless by the last hour before his next dose, so we kept upping it. Today he got the original 3 (150mg) he was originally on and he was much less anxious today. I don't think the Gab has done much yet, and I sure hope it starts to help soon

 

he is, however, getting 24/7 love and attention, we take turns sleeping next to him on the floor and I've woken up a couple times with him snuggling. He's a HUGE snuggler, usually with me, when he was able to do the stairs and slept with us. He's just such a sweet, loving boy. He's perfect.

 

The only thing I am glad of is that he IS 10.5 years old...while that is not OLD to me at all, I'm just grateful he didn't get this at age 8 or worse, like at 5. THAT is just horrible. I feel so bad for the pups and their families when it hits so young. At least we've had almost 7 beautiful years loving on him.

 

we have an appointment with the oncology team at a specialty clinic up in Buffalo Grove next Wednesday morning, so we'll see what they say. Our vet keeps saying that they most likely will not do chemo without a biopsy first, and that is OUT of the question -- way too painful and risky. So we'll see, I guess. The artemisinin I ordered came but you can't give that if you do radiation (have to wait 30 days) so we'll find out about that. Two good friends used that with their hounds and had unbelievable results.

 

thanks again for everyone's concern and caring -- Nube knows how much you care and it means a lot to him -- and me

Edited July 18, 2012 by RaineysMom

[TheFullHouse]

You both are in my thoughts and prayers.

[AEB]

Hang in there KIm. Find out how treatment will affect his quality of life. Whether you treat or don't it comes down to your knowing him. You will know if it's time. Hugs to Nubers.

[galgrey]

You're both in my thoughts and prayers.