Ls Info I Found And Chiropractors In Maryland?

[Jester]

So... I did a ton of reading about LS in people and in animals and learned some interesting things. It is not necessarily degenerative and there are a lot of things they do in people for it that aren't mentioned in the articles about pets. The other thing that I found interesting is that it can cause sciatic pain in the lower extremeties (read that in an article about people). About 5 years ago, Chad started licking his lower legs to the point of self-mutilation. I was told by multiple vets that "some dogs just do that" and it was behavioral and that there was nothing wrong with him to indicate anything else. If I wrap his legs in vet wrap, he doesn't do it. Seems to me that wrapping them helps the sciatic pain. Anyway, the documentation for people notes that chiropractics can help with the sciatic pain so I started to look for a canine chiropractor for Chad. The closest one I can find on the 'net is in Stafford, VA (2 hour drive). There HAS to be one closer somewhere in Maryland, has anyone heard of one?

 

On another note, I just need to vent. The idea that Chad has been suffering for 5 years just hurts my heart. I am angry that the vets wouldn't listen to me when I told them that something was wrong and I didn't think it was purely behavioral. I am angry that none of them noted that the way he twists his feet when he walks is indicative of a lower back/neurological problem. He has ALWAYS twisted his feet when he walks, but no one else seemed to think anything of it until I noticed that his back was bothering him and he had trouble doing steps from the pain. The thought that someone could have put this together 5 years ago and we could have done something for him makes me want to scream. This isn't a rant about vets in general or anything like that, this is purely me venting on behalf of my poor dog. The only buddy I have left. He trusts me to take care of him and I've let him down

[Hubcitypam]

You looked at the AVCA site?

[Jester]

Yes. There are only two listed in Maryland on their site, one is an Equine specialist and the other is more than 2 hours from me (3 with traffic).

[NeylasMom]

Dee, check with Meredith. There's a chiropractor that will come to your home, not sure if she will travel all of the way out to you, but both Meredith and I have used her. I just can't locate her contact info as it's been a couple of years since I used her. Melinda I think.

 

Does Chad lick his front legs as well, or only his back legs? Leg licking was one of the symptoms that sent me to my vet and ultimately to my orthopedist with Zuri and the dx was he is likely in the very early stages of LS. The licking had subsided by the time we saw the specialist though so I sort of dismissed that as unrelated, but he's been doing it again recently so your post is very timely for us.

 

Have you tried Gabapentin with him yet? I really don't understand why more vets aren't more knowledgable about LS and the use of Gabapentin to treat it. I have had to tell 2 people about LS and the treatment options in just the past week or so and the one who followed up on my referal to VOSM where I go got confirmation of everythign I had told her. The bottom line for me anymore is if I don't feel a problem has been addressed to my satisfaction by my regular vet, I'm going to a specialist. It was the same thing with Neyla's osteo - my vet dismissed it, couldn't see anything on the x-rays. Off to teh specialist we went and lo and behold, there it was. It's frustrating, but at least I now know my $125 won't be wasted on the consult. Not sure if you're up for the drive, but if you are, Dr. Sherman Canapp (ortho) and the neurologist he works with are fantastic and incredibly educated on LS treatment options (including the steroid injections).

 

ETA: What are the other things they do in people if you don't mind sharing? I'm definitely curious. Right now Zuri doesn't seem to need meds, but I am watching him very closely. And I may look into having Melinda come out in light of what you're saying about the leg licking if it does apply to front legs as well.

Edited May 16, 2012 by NeylasMom

[Jester]

I'm with you, Jen, on attacking when I don't feel my vet is helping. Unfortunately, it is over an hour's drive to the closest specialist so it is not an easy thing for me to do. My current vet, and the second vet I went to did nothing for this, not even the spine check Dr. Stack outlines. The second vet is at least interested in options I find and will talk to me respectfully, but the first one sat me down and actually told me to accept that Chad is terminally ill and will slowly lose all control and I need to come to terms with it. She told me there is no treatment for a dog his age (12), only ways to manage the pain. She won't do the steroid injections and is "disinclined" to put him on long-term oral steroids. No vet has discussed anything other than previcox as a solution to manage the pain, and MRI/surgery to fix it. I will have to look into the gabapentin because the previcox really isn't cutting it anymore.

 

For people, they actually talk about the steroid injections, chiropractic care, various types of surgeries and arthritis treatments, and acupunture. I didn't pay much attention to the medications because I know not all will translate to dogs. They note that the acupunture helps manage the pain, but is temporary. They noted that chiropractic care can be corrective for some causes of the disease.

 

I will ask Meredith for the contact info and give it a shot. I contacted the Equine vet and the receptionist is going to ask the doctor if she would be willing to see Chad (she used to do dogs but no longer has all the equipment) and get back to me. Thanks for the lead on the specialist. I think that the second vet I saw would at least be willing to take the specialist's recommendations and run with them.

 

Chad licks at all of his legs obsessively, but his rear left legs are the ones he will mutilate. He tends to lick the upper parts of his front legs, up where they attach at his chest, and the lower parts of his back legs. It has definitely gotten worse over the last 5 years.

[greyhead]

Like Jen, I'm also curious what other things they do for humans, so I hope you'll post about it! We have an LS dog too, and we've used combined acupuncture and chiropractic treatments for it. Still doing that, but have had to add meds now. Hope you can get hooked up with good treatment for your dog!

 

ETA: Oops, you were writing while I was! Thanks for the info.

Edited May 16, 2012 by greyhead

[Hubcitypam]

I will just toss in (for the thousandth time) that I had bad luck with Rex and chiro...not for his LS (depo shots fixed that right up) but with another issue in his neck. My vet very strongly advised me to do accupuncture over chiro as it has a better proven clinical track record (according to him) but I didn't listen.

[NeylasMom]

Dee, if you could get the time off work, I really think it would be worth your time and money to do the consult at VOSM and then have them work with you remotely on follow-up care, or with you through your vet. But I understand that may not be doable. They are experienced with doing the steroid injections there.

 

The other thing that Dr. Canapp recommended to me was that we do some physical therapy, or if I couldn't swing the appts, to do some stuff on my own. Basically, Zuri's core muscles had weakened, most likely because he had had a dislocated toe and I was resting him. Then all of this stuff started and I wasn't sure whether it was still the toe or something else, so I continued to restrict activity (normally we do a lot of hiking where he gets to run a lot, but we were doing shorter hikes and I wasn't allowing him to run at all). So basically, we think he lost core muscle strength because we were only doing shorter walks on relatively flat ground, which exacerbated the hind end pain from the potential LS. So once I had the all clear, we went back to regular activity including long hikes, sometimes with steep inclines and off lead time and he does seem to be doing much better. So another thing VOSM could potentially do is get you set up with rehab stuff to do at home. That's typically a separate appt so if you wanted to consider it, I would ask that they book you for both at the same time. Or maybe you cna find someone closer who can help with that.

 

ETA: I have seen a lot of good feedback on this board re: acupuncture for LS. Yet another thing you'd need to find in your area though.

[Jester]

There are actually acupuncturists in my area, believe it or not. I was leaning more toward the Chiropractic care because the reading I did suggested that was more effective long term for the sciatic pain (licking lower extremeties) than acupuncture.

 

VOSM is closer to me than the Chiropractor and I will call them. Melinda is the other board certified chiro in Maryland (2+ hours from me); the ones in Virginia are actually closer to me than she is. I will wait and see what the Equine vet thinks before I check with her.

[MerlinsMum]

I am so very sorry you're going through this with Chad Poor boy. I understand and sympathise with the worry and stress you must be feeling over this.

 

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category. There is some evidence that it can provide mild relief for back pain, but the benefit is considered very modest and certainly no greater than the relief that can be obtained through the use of conventional meds (NSAIDs) and exercise. Chiropractic "adjustments" can also be dangerous.

 

Here is a good piece from a vet's blog: Veterinary Chiropractic

 

And yet, even though they have not been proven effective, these treatments can be very expensive. If you are frustrated with your vet, I would seek advice from other veterinary professionals. I understand your anger at the thought that the vets you consulted were unable to identify the only onset of LS.

 

On a separate note - PLEASE don't feel that you have let Chad down. I am sure that nothing could be further from the truth. It's very hard for us -- regular folk with no veterinary expertise -- to know how to proceed when we notice behavior that's out of the ordinary. That's why we consult veterinary professionals and expect them to have a better idea of what's going on. You couldn't possibly have known what the matter was. Please don't beat yourself up

[Burpdog]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

I have 15 years experience with alternative medicine, and chiropractic & acupuncture work. They cannot cure cancer, there are limitations and many times you need to work with western medicine. It's interesting to see conventional medicine vets turn the corner when they see the results. Like other veterinarians, there are good & bad alternative vets.

[MaryJane]

I can't help provide the name of a closer chiropractor for you but, I wanted to add that my Larry has seen a chiropractor (certified for animals) three times so far and will be seeing him again next month. We have treatments once a month and he actually comes to the house. Last year Larry who is about 10 1/2 now, went through quite a few leg issues like a fractured toe, muscle strains with bad limping (2 x-rays to make sure not osteo), and stitches between his toes. This year he was doing better but we noticed a loss of muscle mass (very noticable) on one side of his rump and I (and my vet) was concerned enough that Larry and I went to 2 different neurologists. Neither of them diagnosed a back issue but, there was something going on just not pronounced enough for a diagnosis.

 

I decided to try chiropractic treatment. I make sure that we don't do any severe twisting or popping - the doctor limits to just light manipulation. So far I have noticed a difference - before the treatments he was nervous about going up the stairs to the second floor and would only do it maybe twice a day ... now, he's going up the stairs 5, 6, 7 times a day and ... he's running like crazy outside with the other two dogs.

 

I do think I need to add that in Larry's case, he was stable before we started the chiropractic treatments and if he wasn't, I wouldn't have done them. To explain that further - years ago I had two herniated disks and I did not consider going to a chiropractor. Once I was healed then I went a few times just to keep things aligned. I think if there is something serious going on then you need to be very careful about any manipulation as it causes inflammation which in turn can cause swelling.

 

If you decide to move ahead, make sure that the chiropractor is certified for animals. Tell him/her that you want only gentle manipulation and if it looks like there is any pain whatsoever - stop the adjustments.

 

Good luck.

[MerlinsMum]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

Nonsense. Experience has nothing to do with it. Experience is subjective and, as such, totally unreliable. That's precisely why we came up with the scientific method, which involves rigorous testing to determine whether an alleged remedy actually works. All the meds we give to our hounds to help with a condition underwent a thorough testing process again and again before they were proven to be safe, and before they could be approved and then marketed. Not so with "alternative medicine", which is completely unregulated.

 

I have 15 years experience with alternative medicine, and chiropractic & acupuncture work.

 

I'm afraid that the scientific evidence obtained from years of small and large-scale randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies completely contradicts your statement. However, I do not want to hijack the OP's thread so I will leave it at that, and maybe start another thread.

[greyhead]

One of the articles referenced in the article you linked to, Kerry, pointed out that double-blind studies of chiropractic can't even be done. The practitioner who performs a technique like that can't be blind to what he's doing. So I doubt there are studies of that kind that have been done or could be done. I guess the correlate of that fact is that there have not been such gold-standard studies that have in fact shown chiropractic to be ineffective.

 

It was strange to me that the linked article expressed such skepticism, even disdain, about subluxations. Subluxations aren't anything mysterious or ineffable; they're bony structures out of place and they are visible on x-rays.

[GeorgeofNE]

My George has LS, so far very manageable with common sense care and medications. He gets 50 mg of Deramaxx in the AM, and 100 mg of Gabapentin in the PM. The vet said keep his muscle tone up and his weight down. Minimize jumping on and off things, and keep exercise steady and regular but not excessive.

 

We saw a woman doctor who owns greyhounds, did her surgical residency in Florida at one of the clinics badly injured racers go to, and has a special interest in pain management.

 

Surgery was the only other option she gave me, and I would not subject a pet to that even if I had the money for it, which I don't.

 

 

[Pippin]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

I have 15 years experience with alternative medicine, and chiropractic & acupuncture work. They cannot cure cancer, there are limitations and many times you need to work with western medicine. It's interesting to see conventional medicine vets turn the corner when they see the results. Like other veterinarians, there are good & bad alternative vets.

 

Understanding that the plural of anecdote is not data, I have to agree with Burpdog. My Casey-girl was diagnosed with LS in Jan 2009. It was excruciating for her to stand up/lie down, to the point of GSOD from a normally totally stoic greyhound. We started regular chiropractic treatments *against* the opinion of the ortho-vet who said back surgery was the only potential solution, and within 2 months my 9yr old dog was doing zoomies in the backyard like a 2yr old, showing more energy and enthusiasm than I'd ever seen with her. This past spring, her LS flared up to where regular chiro is no longer sufficient, and we've started seeing a rehab vet in Marietta who does acupuncture. She gave me some exercises to do with Casey at home, but I suck and forget to do them.

 

Even without the exercises, with just 3 acupuncture treatments in a 6-week period and weekly chiropractic, she's back to doing zoomies in the yard. We're off all meds unless she has a flare up. At this point, it's been over 2 weeks since I"ve had to give her pain meds.

 

 

As to expense? The canine chiropractor we saw charges $45/visit. The acupuncturist is doing some cold laser with the acupuncture, and that's $75/visit. If it was just acupuncture, it'd be closer to $60, IIRC. The first visit included an extensive exam, and we spent almost 2 hours in her office - that one was still less than $200. These don't seem like extremely expensive options to me, and I'm budget-conscious.

 

 

Again with anecdotes, but a friend of mine used to show cardigan welsh corgis. He had a champion corgi who could no longer walk, and thought he was going to have to say goodbye. He took Bear to an acupuncturist, and the dog walked out of the clinic after his first treatment. They had several more years together, thanks to regular acupuncture.

[4My2Greys]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

Nonsense. Experience has nothing to do with it. Experience is subjective and, as such, totally unreliable. That's precisely why we came up with the scientific method, which involves rigorous testing to determine whether an alleged remedy actually works. All the meds we give to our hounds to help with a condition underwent a thorough testing process again and again before they were proven to be safe, and before they could be approved and then marketed. Not so with "alternative medicine", which is completely unregulated.

 

 

Well it's funny then that in reports from the last 2 years from the Poison Control Center not 1, not a single death can be attributed to the use of herbal supplements or vitamins. Conversely, however, 497 deaths were caused by these so called "safe" pharmaceuticals. Just jump over and read the thread about Akon not doing well after receiving an NSAID injection to see how safe these pharmaceuticals are.

[tbhounds]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

Nonsense. Experience has nothing to do with it. Experience is subjective and, as such, totally unreliable. That's precisely why we came up with the scientific method, which involves rigorous testing to determine whether an alleged remedy actually works. All the meds we give to our hounds to help with a condition underwent a thorough testing process again and again before they were proven to be safe, and before they could be approved and then marketed. Not so with "alternative medicine", which is completely unregulated.

 

 

Well it's funny then that in reports from the last 2 years from the Poison Control Center not 1, not a single death can be attributed to the use of herbal supplements or vitamins. Conversely, however, 497 deaths were caused by these so called "safe" pharmaceuticals. Just jump over and read the thread about Akon not doing well after receiving an NSAID injection to see how safe these pharmaceuticals are.

Lightly jumping in here-- acupuncture and chiro while I don't have a link for you are not without fault too. I personally know of a hound that needed to be euthanized because the hound had an adjustment (against my advice)-- turns out the hound had cancer of the spine. Should have the hound had pre rads- yes. Was it recommended to the client at the time--no. The gsod will ring in that owners ears forever.

[4My2Greys]

Personally, I would stay away from acupuncture and chiropractic. There is no evidence that acupuncture is effective at all (many, many clinical trials and meta-analyses have been conducted that have shown this again and again), and chiropractic "therapy" falls in the same category.

 

Unless you have personal experience, I don't see how you can comment.

 

Nonsense. Experience has nothing to do with it. Experience is subjective and, as such, totally unreliable. That's precisely why we came up with the scientific method, which involves rigorous testing to determine whether an alleged remedy actually works. All the meds we give to our hounds to help with a condition underwent a thorough testing process again and again before they were proven to be safe, and before they could be approved and then marketed. Not so with "alternative medicine", which is completely unregulated.

 

 

Well it's funny then that in reports from the last 2 years from the Poison Control Center not 1, not a single death can be attributed to the use of herbal supplements or vitamins. Conversely, however, 497 deaths were caused by these so called "safe" pharmaceuticals. Just jump over and read the thread about Akon not doing well after receiving an NSAID injection to see how safe these pharmaceuticals are.

Lightly jumping in here-- acupuncture and chiro while I don't have a link for you are not without fault too. I personally know of a hound that needed to be euthanized because the hound had an adjustment (against my advice)-- turns out the hound had cancer of the spine. Should have the hound had pre rads- yes. Was it recommended to the client at the time--no. The gsod will ring in that owners ears forever.

 

Twenty five years ago my father had been going for a year at that time to conventional western medicine doctors complaining of back pain. They told him it was arthritis and when the pain didn't go away with the drugs they prescribed him they told him it was in his head. They never did any radiographs and when my father ask about having them done he was admonished by them for even suggesting to tell them how to do their job, afterall they are the ones who have the education not him. Friends of our family convinced my father to see a chiropractor. It was this chiropractor that took the radiographs that turned out to show lung cancer which by that time had spread to his spine. He died an excruciatingly painful death four months later. But then again maybe that pain was all in his head too, as he was also told by the conventional doctors when he told them the drugs they had been giving him and which they said had been tested and proven effective for arthritis was not relieving his pain.

The problem comes when one modality thinks it is the sole answer to what ails us and fails to see how these different forms of medicine can work together for the best benefit of the patient.

[MauCarden]

Dee check this place out. Caroline Animal Hospital, (sorry can't link) They might be eaiser than Staffordm, since it is not far off 301 near Bolwing Green VA. Most VAGA dogs go there. My neighbor thinks Dr Grissom saved her dog's ( with back problems) life.

[Jester]

I took Chad to VOSM last week. The doctor spent at least 30 solid minutes doing a complete assessment of Chad, which is something I haven't been able to get anyone else to do, so that alone was worth the drive. All told, we spent an hour with the doctor. He has issues in three different spots on his spine, with the lowest one being higher than the lumbar region. He told me that the two most likely causes are bulging disks or stenosis in those locations, but that there were some other (very less likely) possible causes like infections. He said that I would need to do an MRI of Chad's entire spine to truely diagnose the issue, and that surgery would likely be the corrective action. He also noted that since he is having issues in more that one location, it was possible that the MRI would show that surgery wouldn't be an option for him given his age (they won't do more than 2 or 3 disks). We agreed that pain management was the best course of treatment for him at this time, given his age and condition. The other nice thing is that the vet told me his nerve issues aren't really that bad yet, and that he has a lot of function left in his legs, etc.

 

I had gotten one of my local vets to switch him from Previcox to Gabopentin and it had made a world of difference (he completely stopped licking his back legs within 24 hours). The Dr at VOSM had me double that dose; Chad has been like a new dog since then! I accidentally missed a dose Sunday morning and by Sunday afternoon I could see the difference. I was told that he is currently at the lowest therapeutic dose for the problems he is having, so I have lots of room to increase it if it stops helping.

 

He told me that I should make an appointment with the rehab specialist for exercises to help build his core, and that I should leash walk him daily and not let him run around (he doesn't run around anymore anyway). He said that he has clients that have had great success with acupuncture for the pain and that the Chiropractor will either help or not help, and I would know after a session or two if it was worth it. It said that it can cause issues, but that is very rare. He said it was up to me if I wanted to use any of those therapies; he saw no issue with it and thought that it could provide relief. He cautioned me that none of those would cure the underlying issue, he would require surgery for that.

[EnzaFerrari]

I love VOSM.

[inugrey]

Glad you have clear answers and a plan for treatment/comfort moving forward.

[NeylasMom]

Dee, I'm so glad you had a productive visit at VOSM. I love them so much, but I'm always afraid that one of these times that I rave about how someone should go there, they'll leave disappointed. Of course, how is that possible?

 

Did you see Dr. Canapp or the neurologist? I've heard good things about the neurologist as well, but I'm so enamored with Dr. C. that I will probably always make my appts with him and let them consult.

 

I am really wondering whether it's time for us to get in for a recheck, or make the PT appt there. I am going to give it another week or two I think with continued exercise to see if we can see improvement again, but if not, I'll take him in.

 

Please keep us posted on how any PT, acupuncture, or chiropractic treatments go.