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Sleep Aggression And Cat Safety


Guest Matty

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Guest Matty

Hey everyone. As we roll out of week two with Nemo, I am still astonished at how well behaved he is. The only real issues we have are his fear of vinyl and linoleum floors (even with runners and area rugs), and his sleep aggression.

 

As for the sleep aggression, we know just to leave him alone. However our cat sees this as a time to go over and try to cuddle up with the dog like she does with us - bad idea. It has lead to growling (which usually gets the message accross), and at least once or twice to snarling. We haven't seen any snapping yet, but we're hoping it doesn't happen.

 

When Nemo is awake, he is thoroughly indifferent towards the cat (and other dogs as well). He simply doesn't care that they're there, and tends not to pay attention to them unless he finds them super interesting.

 

I know sleep aggression usually has to work it out, but if anyone has any suggestions about cat safety in dealing with it, i'd love to hear. I don't think there is any real danger (the cat is curious, not stupid), but if there is anyone out there who has dealt with a similar situation I'd love to hear the outcome.

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It sounds like your dog is awake so I don't think that I would classify it as "sleep aggression" although others might disagree with me. IMO, sleep aggression is usually when your dog is sleeping (and some sleep with eyes open) and is startled and reacts with a snarling, growling and maybe a biting lunge.

 

It sounds more like your boy finds it disconcerting that another animal wants to lie right on him or next to him and this might be more in line with characteristics of "space aggression". It's still way to early for your boy to be comfortable with this (he might never be comfortable with it) and he is letting you know by the growling and snarling and if your cat still continues this behavior, the next step might likely be to snap at the cat since no one appears to be listening to what Nemo is trying to say.

 

If it is true sleep aggression and your dog comes up lunging from a sound sleep snapping then you need to keep your cat away from the dog when he is sleeping and not allow the cat to lie next to him because the dog could harm the cat unintentionally. If it is space aggression, then it might settle down over time as he gets more comfortable with people/pets getting close to where he is lying down although, I have one dog that has "space issues" and it's going on two years now and she has only made slight improvements - I can always get close to her when she is lying down but, she always warns the other dogs to keep their distance and since she is a seizure dog, I do allow her this behavior.

 

I don't have cats so I don't know if it is possible to train your cat to stay away - the best solution might be to put the cat in a different room and let Nemo get more comfortable with his surroundings before forcing the cat on him. Over the next months, you can see if there is any difference in his "space" behavior.

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I deal with it about 10 times a day.

 

If George had intended to hurt my cat, he would already have done so. He gets fed up, and my cat is 100% fearless, and probably also a bit crazy. He just keeps on going. The growling does escalate to snapping, but that's as far as it goes. If it gets out of hand, I will from time to time lock the cat up to give my poor dog a break.

 

Sounds like your dog is just telling the cat enough; it's really up to you to intervene when it gets to the snapping stage, as the cat CLEARLY isn't getting the picture.


Hamish-siggy1.jpg

Susan,  Hamish,  Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck

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Guest Matty

Sadly keeping the cat away is not an option - due to Nemo's issues crossing vinyl/linoleum floors, he basically is living in the main room of the house through which all traffic passes, and the cat has no choice but to pass by him. I referred to it as sleep aggression as the same behavior isn't exhibited when Nemo is upright. He doesn't have a problem with the cat at all if he is standing. However as soon as he is laying down, the presence of the cat cues growling. Luckily there hasn't been any snapping, and any growls get a harsh "NO!"

 

The cat hasn't gotten close enough to try and lay next to him or anything, its more inquisitve at this point.

 

It should be noted that if you (a person) give him more than a gentle pat while he is laying down (including laying down next to him) it can cue a growl as well, though that has subsided substantially since he came to us. The rescue actually were concerned about whether or not we had kids on the off chance that they wouldn't "get the hint."

 

As I said, my girlfriend and I can take the hint, but the cat doesn't seem to be learning.

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Guest sheila

I agree with Susan (George of NE) in that if the cat was in danger it would have represented by now. I had a cat that had grown used to cuddling with my first hound and tried to do so with my second hound. Second hound didn't mind the cat hanging around, but any kind of curious or cuddling overtures were met with a grumble and sometimes a snap. Eventually the cat figured it out.

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Guest Wasserbuffel

I wouldn't reprimand the dog for growling at the cat. It sounds like both animals are still learning about each other and your cat is smart enough not to push its luck. My grey will growl and snarl of the kitties get too close, and they back away. Likewise one cat will growl and smack the dog when she gets too close for his liking, or when she's running around and it annoys him. There have been times where a cat has accidentally jumped onto a couch or bed and landed on her face, surprising them both, but she never reacted in those situations.

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I wouldn't reprimand the dog for growling at the cat. It sounds like both animals are still learning about each other and your cat is smart enough not to push its luck.

 

Thanks for posting, good question. I agree with Jayne re: growling.

Growling is a dog's clear warning system. If dogs are reprimanded for growling, in their mind, they may skip that clear "communication" growl and react with a snap or bite next time.

 

It's too soon to allow the cat close (invasive) contact with the Greyhound's resting space (if ever). I believe it is humans' responsibility to find a way to create a safe zone for the hound, while keeping the cat safe.

 

Allowing hound to rest in a crate (open or closed door, as needed) in the most highly lived-in daytime room can help both animals safely adjust to seeing/living each other. Remember Greyhounds are used to living completely undisturbed in crates in kennels. Please try to find a way to safely allow hound space to watch family happenings in the well used daytime room.

 

(I assume area rug paths have non-slip rug grips underneath, if not rubberized backing material is important. Runner rugs work great.)

 

A quiet squirt of water to the cat just before it gets to the dog might help extensively curious cat learn to leave Greyhound alone, but extremely important not to miss cat target by getting hound by mistake. Hound should only have good things happen when cat is around (happy verbal praise, treats). Please don't tell the cat "no" because the dog will think you're talking to him.

 

Hopefully, your hound is still wearing a muzzle while free in house with cat. (BTW, free cat and free hound should be supervised at all times.) It's okay to let both sniff each other to calm curiousity as long as hound is standing and muzzled. Better if cat is on slightly elevated level.

 

Re: your comment: "It should be noted that if you (a person) give him more than a gentle pat while he is laying down (including laying down next to him) it can cue a growl as well, though that has subsided substantially since he came to us. The rescue actually were concerned about whether or not we had kids on the off chance that they wouldn't "get the hint." "

 

Again, too soon for humans to pet hound when he's lying down, and way too soon to lie down near hound while hound is resting on "safe bed." Each hound is different in time needed to "trust" their new people, combined with major life environmental changes. New hounds need time (weeks/months) to safely watch all the home activity. Most have just been pulled from the only life they've ever known; living in crates in a kennel full of other large Greyhounds where all happenings are observed and known.

 

Good luck. :)

Edited by 3greytjoys
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What you are describing is generally referred to as space issues. My suggestion to toss treats to the pup when the cat is getting close to him, but before he growls. If he growls, the treats stop. You can do a very very minor uh uh almost in a happy tone so he gets a minor cue as to why the treats stop. Don't yell or say no. This is rewarding him for letting the cat near and he'll start to think that good things happen when the cat is close by. Eventually he may even lay down near the cat so you toss him treats, but that won't happen for a long time.

Edited by Sambuca
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As mentioned, I agree with not reprimanding hound for growling.

 

To clarify my previous post: I do not agree that every cat is smart enough to not push cat's own luck. Some cats are very dog-friendly, particularly if they've never had a bad experience with a dog. Some cats have no idea a dog can harm them (any dog breed). Many cats can push a dog beyond tolerable limits.

(Just sharing decades of experience to be responsibly cautious when cats and dogs are first adjusting to each other.)

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Guest DragonflyDM

Happens all the time with Boomer and Cheesit. Sometimes Boomer will tolerate the cat cuddles-- most of the time not. The cat is determined to be friends with something so large and warm who owns a few pillows.

 

If we are all in bed together, I just make sure I keep reassuring Boomer that it is OK and he will calm down. If he doesn’t-- well then, sorry Kitty, you have to go. New pets. New dynamics. New rules.

 

But as with everyone else--- growling and a bark is not “aggressive” it is “annoyed” (first for the dog who is growling and then the owner who has to hear it). Just give calming and reassuring energy to the situation and give it time (lots and lots of time).

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I don't mean to keep the cat away ALL THE TIME. I can't do that either. I'm in an 875 sq. foot condo. I mean when the dog gets fed up, I pick up my cat, carry him to the bedroom (which is equipped at all times with a litter box and food) toss him on the bed, and shut the door. If the cat won't leave the dog alone, it's time for me to remove the cat and let the dog have some peace! They do actually get along, it's just that the cat pushes EVERYONE'S buttons (and likes it--his nickname is You Little Bastard!)

 

 

You might get a chuckle out of these--

 

 

Tickling the dog's feet just to get a rise out of him (didn't work that day)

Bigglesworthplaywithfeet.jpg

 

A classic!

 

Kittenbetweenlegs3.jpg

My favorite photo

BigglesworthridingGeorge1.jpg

 

There are no words for this one!

headlock2.jpg

 

This was about 2 days after I got this particular cat

frontendofdog-1.jpg

Edited by GeorgeofNE


Hamish-siggy1.jpg

Susan,  Hamish,  Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck

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Is that an Egyptian Mau? Or an Oriental??

 

 

Oriental Shorthair (and for those unfamiliar with the breed, they're a bit like a Siamese on uppers!)

Edited by GeorgeofNE


Hamish-siggy1.jpg

Susan,  Hamish,  Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck

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Guest DragonflyDM

I seriously want to save up and someday have a Savannah Cat…. if my greyhounds would allow it. Two very large tall animals!!!

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  • 8 months later...

Hey everyone, I hate to resurrect an old thread but since I was the OP, I figured it would be alright. We've now had Nemo for close to a year and his behavior hasn't really changed. He still doesn't like being approached while he is down, and growls at anyone/anything that comes near him while he is laying down - yet 95% of the time when he is up he couldn't care less. For example, if he is laying down the cat gets growled, snarled, and one time, snapped at. However as soon as he is standing he has no problems with the cat. We had a moment though on Thanksgiving when an infant crawled too close while we were eating dinner.

 

But he has started to have a problem with people while he is standing up. It is rare and never at my fiance and I, but on a few occasions now he will be standing up, and walk over to guests and very much get in their faces as if he wanted attention. When they pay any attention to him though (pets, or last time just acknowledging him) he starts growling. This usually gets him an immediate thwap on the nose (or grab to the nose, pulling his head towards us), and a forceful NO from mom and dad, followed by ignoring his existence for an hour or so. But still, it spooks guests.

 

Now it's by no means a bad overall situation. Towards my fiance and I he's been great, and he rarely if ever growls. Our concern is that he is becoming more aggressive towards other people in our house, and that's not acceptable. Any advice would really be great.

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Guest DragonflyDM

Hey everyone, I hate to resurrect an old thread but since I was the OP, I figured it would be alright. We've now had Nemo for close to a year and his behavior hasn't really changed. He still doesn't like being approached while he is down, and growls at anyone/anything that comes near him while he is laying down - yet 95% of the time when he is up he couldn't care less. For example, if he is laying down the cat gets growled, snarled, and one time, snapped at. However as soon as he is standing he has no problems with the cat. We had a moment though on Thanksgiving when an infant crawled too close while we were eating dinner.

 

But he has started to have a problem with people while he is standing up. It is rare and never at my fiance and I, but on a few occasions now he will be standing up, and walk over to guests and very much get in their faces as if he wanted attention. When they pay any attention to him though (pets, or last time just acknowledging him) he starts growling. This usually gets him an immediate thwap on the nose (or grab to the nose, pulling his head towards us), and a forceful NO from mom and dad, followed by ignoring his existence for an hour or so. But still, it spooks guests.

 

Now it's by no means a bad overall situation. Towards my fiance and I he's been great, and he rarely if ever growls. Our concern is that he is becoming more aggressive towards other people in our house, and that's not acceptable. Any advice would really be great.

 

Boomer growls at Cheesit when he gets too close to him on the bed. It has been a year and he has occasionally barked, but never done more than that. I sort of comfort him when he growls and that helps. But Cheesit (the cat) is smart. He will either stay on the other side of me...or if he wants the bed..he jumps off and sits next to a chew bone or on Boomer's dog bed. Boomer immediately jumps off to protect his "stuff" which gives the entire bed back to Cheesit. Ingenious really.

 

My thoughts are that the dog is possessive but not aggressive. As long as the cats are aware of that I am not that worried.

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He still doesn't like being approached while he is down, and growls at anyone/anything that comes near him while he is laying down - yet 95% of the time when he is up he couldn't care less.

 

It's not unusual for dogs to be less tolerant of being approached when they are lying down. That position is a more vulnerable one, and they are usually resting and may not be in the mood to interact.

 

Did you ever try the advice above to toss treats and praise Nemo to help create a good association with the cat approaching when he's lying down?

 

but on a few occasions now he will be standing up, and walk over to guests and very much get in their faces as if he wanted attention. When they pay any attention to him though (pets, or last time just acknowledging him) he starts growling. This usually gets him an immediate thwap on the nose (or grab to the nose, pulling his head towards us), and a forceful NO from mom and dad, followed by ignoring his existence for an hour or so.

 

I'd first suggest a thorough vet check to rule out any medical causes for this behavior, and also consider having a full thyroid panel done. I'd also recommend seeking the guidance of a qualified behaviorist or trainer who relies on reward-based methods.

 

How does Nemo typically act around strangers, both in and out of the home? The behavior you describe of him seeking attention and then growling when he gets it is not typical for a generally insecure dog. But it also not unheard of. Some dogs are very curious about people and really want the attention, but when they do get direct attention (especially from someone who is being too enthusiastic, perhaps leaning over or crowding the dog), they become overwhelmed and can react negatively.

 

Similar to the above advice about the cat, I'd recommend a training approach that teaches Nemo that strangers in the home are a good thing by associating them with praise and treats. If he gets overwhelmed with direct contact, ask people to give him space, but toss him some treats.

 

And again, like the prior advice, I'd also suggest not punishing him for growling. A harsh correction for growling can have a couple different unwanted consequences. 1) It can suppress the growl, then in future situations when he feels uncomfortable, he may go straight to snapping or biting. And 2) it will create a negative association with interacting with guests in your home. He approaches the guest, something they do makes him a little uncomfortable, he growls, and suddenly, he's 'attacked' by mom and dad. So guests in the home will increasingly become a bad thing in his mind. Hate to say it, but it's possible that his latest response of growling when he was just acknowledged may have been a result of the previous strong corrections.

Jennifer &

Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On),

Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice

gtsig3.jpg

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He still doesn't like being approached while he is down, and growls at anyone/anything that comes near him while he is laying down - yet 95% of the time when he is up he couldn't care less.

 

It's not unusual for dogs to be less tolerant of being approached when they are lying down. That position is a more vulnerable one, and they are usually resting and may not be in the mood to interact.

 

Did you ever try the advice above to toss treats and praise Nemo to help create a good association with the cat approaching when he's lying down?

 

but on a few occasions now he will be standing up, and walk over to guests and very much get in their faces as if he wanted attention. When they pay any attention to him though (pets, or last time just acknowledging him) he starts growling. This usually gets him an immediate thwap on the nose (or grab to the nose, pulling his head towards us), and a forceful NO from mom and dad, followed by ignoring his existence for an hour or so.

 

I'd first suggest a thorough vet check to rule out any medical causes for this behavior, and also consider having a full thyroid panel done. I'd also recommend seeking the guidance of a qualified behaviorist or trainer who relies on reward-based methods.

 

How does Nemo typically act around strangers, both in and out of the home? The behavior you describe of him seeking attention and then growling when he gets it is not typical for a generally insecure dog. But it also not unheard of. Some dogs are very curious about people and really want the attention, but when they do get direct attention (especially from someone who is being too enthusiastic, perhaps leaning over or crowding the dog), they become overwhelmed and can react negatively.

 

Similar to the above advice about the cat, I'd recommend a training approach that teaches Nemo that strangers in the home are a good thing by associating them with praise and treats. If he gets overwhelmed with direct contact, ask people to give him space, but toss him some treats.

 

And again, like the prior advice, I'd also suggest not punishing him for growling. A harsh correction for growling can have a couple different unwanted consequences. 1) It can suppress the growl, then in future situations when he feels uncomfortable, he may go straight to snapping or biting. And 2) it will create a negative association with interacting with guests in your home. He approaches the guest, something they do makes him a little uncomfortable, he growls, and suddenly, he's 'attacked' by mom and dad. So guests in the home will increasingly become a bad thing in his mind. Hate to say it, but it's possible that his latest response of growling when he was just acknowledged may have been a result of the previous strong corrections.

This times a billion.

 

JJNg, have I ever thanked you for all of the typing you save me from ;)

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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I agree with JJNG also.

 

Try asking your guests to toss Nemo super delicious "high value" treats on the floor (a few feet away from him) so he gets major "rare" rewards every time outsiders are visiting. He's more likely to view visitors with higher regard thereafter. (You could give your guests a bag of treats before they enter your home; things like plain cooked meat, smelly tripe, etc.)

 

A few additional thoughts:

 

When guests with young children are visiting, I highly recommend separating dogs from children, either by a baby-gate or crate, and being very careful to ensure Nemo still feels he's included as part of the main group (just without having full open interaction). Otherwise, it's too easy for an adult to be briefly distracted from supervising the child and dog. (This goes for any dog breed.) BTW, a young child visitor on floor level in a dog's home environment can easily be perceived by any dog as an unwelcome intruder. This includes a sleeping infant strapped in a carrier left on the floor.

 

"Let resting or sleeping dogs lie" (without disturbances) holds true (in my opinion).

 

This is a helpful link about understanding dogs' language signals: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1

 

Thank you for coming back to GT, and for continuing your original thread. That is helpful for us too.

Edited by 3greytjoys
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Guest Greyt_dog_lover

Whoa, slow down, you hit your dog? You grab his muzzle with your hand yell at him, then banash him for a hour?

 

STOP ABUSING YOUR DOG!!!! Your hound has the brain power of a 4 year old, and lives in the moment. You banishing him for any more than about 30 seconds does nothing but confuse your dog.

 

I would suggest that you try some positive training methods and such, but unfortunately I would wager a guess that the damage is already done with this particular dog, I would also say that whenever you get frustrated or the training isnt going as fast as you want, you will revert to the punishment.

 

If you honestly feel that your punishment is appropriate, then I will just throw this out there, call the adoption group you got him from and return him, and don't ask for another hound, EVER. I am sure people are going to disagree with me and say I am mean and such. You are not trying any positive training methods and relying upon punishment. The only thing you are going to do, if you havent already, is created a dog that is fearful of people and will bite when he feels cornered. The dog will then bite someone and have to be PTS.

Edited by Greyt_dog_lover
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Whoa, slow down, you hit your dog? You grab his muzzle with your hand yell at him, then banash him for a hour?

 

STOP ABUSING YOUR DOG!!!! Your hound has the brain power of a 4 year old, and lives in the moment. You banishing him for any more than about 30 seconds does nothing but confuse your dog.

 

I would suggest that you try some positive training methods and such, but unfortunately I would wager a guess that the damage is already done with this particular dog, I would also say that whenever you get frustrated or the training isnt going as fast as you want, you will revert to the punishment.

 

If you honestly feel that your punishment is appropriate, then I will just throw this out there, call the adoption group you got him from and return him, and don't ask for another hound, EVER. I am sure people are going to disagree with me and say I am mean and such. You are not trying any positive training methods and relying upon punishment. The only thing you are going to do, if you havent already, is created a dog that is fearful of people and will bite when he feels cornered. The dog will then bite someone and have to be PTS.

Oh for goodness sake, I am probably one of the people on this board most strongly opposed to using punishment, especially physical punishment, but overreact much? Why don't we give the OP a chance to respond and state whether he's willing to try more positive methods before we jump down his throat? Unfortunate as it may be, punishment is still the go to way to "train" for many people, but it's quite possible for people to open their minds to the idea that there are better, more mutually rewarding ways to train, but berating and telling them to return their dog isn't going to encourage that at all.

gallery_12662_3351_862.jpg

Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart

"The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong."

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I agree with NeylasMom. I'm also about as strongly opposed to any kind of punishment as you can get, but offending the OP with a response like that isn't very helpful. For many people, that's all they know to do, or it may even have been what was taught to them by 'professionals'. Part of the reason I'm so opposed to punishment is because I've used it myself in the past (yes, even physical punishment), and I've personally experienced the damage it can cause. My family was very uneducated about dogs, I didn't know any better, and I listened to the advice of vets and dog trainers when I was a teenager.

 

I've had to live with the guilt of betraying the trust of a dog I loved, and then dealing with the behavioral consequences for the rest of that dog's life. It was a long and difficult journey as I tried various training methods, learning many lessons the hard way at my dog's expense, before I got to where I am now. Everyone has to start somewhere, and they can learn and change if they are willing, and if they are given the chance.

Jennifer &

Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On),

Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice

gtsig3.jpg

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