Small Brag

[Brandiandwe]

We've been working hard recently on managing PKs high prey drive and both brandi and PKs reactivity to other dogs. PK has been going to mixed breed obedience classes and Brandi started yesterday.

 

PK made a strong start at obedience, attempting to attack two small fluffies on our way from the car park to registration. The head trainer wandered over, and welcomed me, complimenting me on PKs condition and saying that I was definitely in the right place. The first class was about training the humans so we all sat/ stood in a circle and listened to some basic dog training stuff. PK found herself in fairly close proximity to a large group of dogs and began withdrawing away from me, into the centre of the circle to try to see everything. In so doing, she boxed herself between a rottweiler, a white shepherd and a golden retriever and began going into meltdown. So we went for a little walk to settle down before returning to the group. This time she lay down with her back to everything and began fixating on a small poodle. So we went for several more walks. At the end we walked out, avoiding all small dogs.

 

Second week, we went back and she was entirely different. She ignored all small dogs, socialised appropriately with the bigger dogs who had scared her last time and actually made friends with an American Staffy cross called Dexter (he looks like a Dexter too!). Week three, she worked beside some small fluffies and shared a water bowl with a JRT. Meanwhile at home, she has become much more more relaxed on walks and much less interested in other dogs. Sadly, Brandi took up that particular baton with gusto.

 

Brandi's first day at obedience was less exciting. After disciplining Dexter for being a bit too familiar with several warning growls and a snap, I was told not to worry that she was learning appropriate socialisinsation. I pointed out that she was actually apprppriately socialised: several warnings and he didn't get the message until the snap, at which point he backed off and they worked happily side by side from then on. She demonstrated the appropriate way to socialise and meet a dog on leash with a rotty and ignored all the other dogs unless encouraged to interact.

 

Then, this morning, it all came together on our walk. We were out early so it was dark. A small dog rushed out barking ferociously crossing the road and charging at us. The girls stopped, placed themselves between me and the dog and watched it relaxed. It took a couple of minutes until I could attract the owners attention and ask them to call their dog back, at which point it went and the girls walked on. No reaction at all. Then later, we met two very ill-mannered labs. They were luncging and pulling at their leashes and we were meeting head on. So we crossed the road, while they carried on. The girls sped up, but did nothing else. No lunging, barking, snarling or challening.

 

I'm so proud of them both!

[christinepi]

Wow, I'm so envious. Can you pin down what you think it is that helped your dogs "change their minds"? I thought of taking my leash reactive pup to an obedience class, but always figured all they'd do is "sit" and "down" and stuff like that. But reading your story, it clearly can go beyond that. So, again, what "did the trick"? Not so much the obedience per se, but simply having to deal with other dogs' proximity in a totally new situation? Or was the trainer one of these rare gifted people who could really help your dogs with the way she set things up for them?

[Brandiandwe]

My obedience classes have involved doing very little 'obedience' work in terms of 'tricks' (sitting, down, heel, etc). Obviously all of these are important toools to have but neither of mine are especially food motivated and they get boed after three repetitions. Instead my classes have consisted of just hanging out in the class, letting my girls see and socialise with other dogs (at a distance then closer), and working on coping mechanisms. So, if my dog starts to react, we take a quick walk away from the action (about 10 - 20 metres), go in a few small circles until she relaxes (for either of them), walk back to the class and reward the continued relaxation. Then I reward, reward, reward relaxation. Others reward 'sit', I reward a quick glance at a barking lunging dog then attention back to me. We've worked on 'watch me', and recall, but mostly it's just been socialising in a controlled environment and also building a closer relationship. I've had a different instructor each week, some I've liked, some not so much, but the magic trick is just looking for changes in behaviour then rewarding. Hopefully, we'll start moving onto focussed training on 'sit' and 'down' but really its worth going along just for the exposure to other dogs and developing alternative behaviours. However, we all have different goals in terms of obedience training. Mine right now is to have less reactive more relaxed dogs with prey drive refocused towards other more appropriate targets.

 

Of course it could all go pear shaped tomorrow.

[christinepi]

I hear you on helping your dogs getting more relaxed. That's what mine needs badly too. What you describe makes sooo much sense--I'm sure Tracker would benefit from that greatly, too. This really made me want to pursue this. I never even thought about that option nor that a trainer would let me do this. But I shall ask and find out!

 

Tracker also gets bored after just a few repetitions. Doesn't see any reason to do this. Who can blame him.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Most of the issue is usually the owner, not the hound. The owner transmits the anxiety and the hound picks up on it. After a few times of the owner being anxious, the hound learns a behavior. You first have to relax yourself before you can expect your hound to relax.

 

Just wondering, what was the "appropriate" way of meeting another hound on a leash that you were taught?

[Remolacha]

I am so impressed! You have done your dogs a huge favor! :yay

[christinepi]

Most of the issue is usually the owner, not the hound. The owner transmits the anxiety and the hound picks up on it. After a few times of the owner being anxious, the hound learns a behavior. You first have to relax yourself before you can expect your hound to relax.

 

Just wondering, what was the "appropriate" way of meeting another hound on a leash that you were taught?

 

 

None. I just encountered people and their dogs along the way where we walked. Initially I let him meet other dog(s). But he was so overbearing with too many of them, I stopped doing that entirely. So in hindsight, I may have inadvertently set him up.

 

But there also are occasions these days when he'll spot dogs and he won't even look at them when walking by or he'll stop to sniff and he's fine. With others, including some he's seen a million time in our neighborhood (plus butt sniffed), he's super tense and will bark. And with some, he'll yell at them one time, and ignore them at another. It's the inconsistency that confuses me so.

 

I certainly was anxious initially, when I first got him. I've long since stopped being anxious. The leash is mostly even slack by the times he goes over threshold w/o me having pulled it taut once. Yet it's got to be leash related overall, since he's really mellow off leash.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. But since you asked...

[XTRAWLD]

I found taking Ryder to obedience school really helped him gain a little more confidence. It's a setting that the dog is normally not familiar with and provides sensory overload. By the end of the 6 week class there was a huge improvement in his behaviour (mine was super shy and the group of people and dogs was just overwhelming for him).

 

It's nice to see it paying off for PK and Brandi!

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

For the record, the "doggie" way of meeting is actually a large sweeping arc around each other to avoid face to face meeting, with the end result of nose to butt. This is actually the correct way to have two dogs meet. Unfortunately we as humans expect dogs to speak our language and want a face to face meeting, this in the doggie world is actually a very aggressive way to meet. Imagine we just met and I stood less than 1 inch away from your face yelling "HELLO, MY NAME IS CHAD!!!". That would be pretty nerve racking. Same thing to a greyhound. So when your greyhound, that is used to meeting other greyhounds appropriately now has you walking them into Petsmart and every other 4 legged creature comes up to their face and YELLS at them, they tend to get flustered pretty quickly. It normally is not a reactive to other dogs thing, but to them, this new world is really weird, everyone wants to try to bite me in the face for no reason, guess I should yell first before they get into my bubble. FYI.

 

Chad

Edited March 5, 2012 by Greyt_dog_lover

[Brandiandwe]

 

Just wondering, what was the "appropriate" way of meeting another hound on a leash that you were taught?

 

I take Chad's point about the sweeping arc, but, sometimes on sidewalks and roads that isn't possible. So, we walked past each other (D = dog and O = owner) like this: D.O.O.D moving in opposite directions and with the dogs at heel and doing 'look at me'. A split second pause and both dogs saw each other and we kept moving. Assuming no reaction, next time it was O.D.D.O still with 'look at me', as we got closer, the dogs who had already been able to sniff at each pother, went past each other and then circled around to sniff the butts. But attention was on the owners until both dogs were past each other.

 

I wouldn't try this with most of the dogs we meet out on our walks, but it was still good to know.

 

Meanwhile, this morning we met two dogs who have caused big reactions in the past and had to walk away only once before I had a nice chat with the owner. Sadly, the unleashed yappers were out this morning on the oval as well, but PK ignored them and Brandi was treated to a session of equick random direction changes and circles until she relaxed. Only took a couple of minutes and there was no lunging or barking, just straining and one attempt to take off.

[christinepi]

I understand the arc thing. But in real life, when I walk down a side walk (not that I do this much anymore with Tracker) or out in the woods, and somebody with a dog is coming my way (I avoid these situations given half a chance, by simply giving a wide berth or walking in a different direction), ALL Tracker wants to do is walk on a straight line right into the other dog's face; and the other dog is either doing exactly the same thing, or, if he is more mellow, he'll just ignore Tracker and keep walking; in either case, Tracker will bark and pull hard. I can't realistically ask the owners to do the arc thing with me, because it's not practical to do this. That's why I think an obedience class may help Tracker. He's not shy at all, though, very much the contrary, so I'm not sure, but you never know.

 

I understand that in theory there's the option of setting this whole thing up by getting a load of owners and their dogs who Tracker has never met before and do the arc in a structured and controlled way. Problem is, I live in the boonies and plain old don't know how I would set this up. I'm not connected to a dog community. So again, maybe the path that Brandiandwe chose would work for me, too.

[Brandiandwe]

Give it a go. I don't think that one approach works for everyone which is why this board is great, with so many different ideas and suggestions. And it is very nice to take a walk without risking a dislocated shoulder or fearing other dogs approaching on leash. Now that the girls recognise dogs as dogs things are much nicer. It might work for Tracker and, if its a reasonably well run class with a good instructor who understands what you goals are then who knows? You might meet some new people and make friends. I've now got one possible friend, a whole lot of people to say hi to, and I'm helping out at the clubs obedience trials in a couple of weeks. Not competing obviously. And my dogs have benefited. Now I'm getting more ambitious. As well as losing that reactivity and redirecting the preydrive, we're going to work on 'sit' and 'down'.

 

We're going to be in class 1 for a very long time..... other dogs may come and go, but the hounds will be there eternally......

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

What I explained is the way that dogs will usually meet each other when they are off-lead, I apologize for not specifying this. As far as what is "practical", when you give the other dog a wide berth, you are actually doing what I said, you are moving away to let the dogs pass before they turn to meet each other head to tail...

[christinepi]

What I explained is the way that dogs will usually meet each other when they are off-lead, I apologize for not specifying this. As far as what is "practical", when you give the other dog a wide berth, you are actually doing what I said, you are moving away to let the dogs pass before they turn to meet each other head to tail...

 

That makes sense!

 

Give it a go. I don't think that one approach works for everyone which is why this board is great, with so many different ideas and suggestions. And it is very nice to take a walk without risking a dislocated shoulder or fearing other dogs approaching on leash. Now that the girls recognise dogs as dogs things are much nicer. It might work for Tracker and, if its a reasonably well run class with a good instructor who understands what you goals are then who knows? You might meet some new people and make friends. I've now got one possible friend, a whole lot of people to say hi to, and I'm helping out at the clubs obedience trials in a couple of weeks. Not competing obviously. And my dogs have benefited. Now I'm getting more ambitious. As well as losing that reactivity and redirecting the preydrive, we're going to work on 'sit' and 'down'.

 

We're going to be in class 1 for a very long time..... other dogs may come and go, but the hounds will be there eternally......

 

Tracker is the only dog I've ever had, and while I'm perfectly happy to be, metaphorically speaking, in class 1 forever as far as sits and downs go, when I see other dogs sometimes how they do what they're asked to do right away, and they're even dying to be told what to do, I think, wow, wouldn't that be nice!! and then I look at Tracker, and he looks at me, and we both shake our heads, start giggling, and go about our business...

[JJNg]

Brandiandwe, great job with your dogs! Sounds like a very well run class. You mentioned that your class hasn't involved much sit, down, heel, etc. What are the goals of the class, and what kind of things are generally worked on? Is this typical for obedience classes in Australia? Some trainers here offer 'manners' classes, but the majority of obedience classes here are about teaching basic commands (sit, down, stay, heel, etc).

 

I understand the arc thing. But in real life, when I walk down a side walk (not that I do this much anymore with Tracker) or out in the woods, and somebody with a dog is coming my way (I avoid these situations given half a chance, by simply giving a wide berth or walking in a different direction), ALL Tracker wants to do is walk on a straight line right into the other dog's face

christinepi, I can't remember if you've posted what kind of training you've tried with Tracker or what progress you've made. But I was wondering if you're familiar with Turid Rugaas's techniques of curving and parallel walking? The premise is pretty similar as the concepts of arcing and giving a wide berth to other dogs, but she uses it in a slightly more structured way for training. It's more effective if you can set up controlled training sessions, but you can use these same concepts even on your walks when the other party isn't working with you. Turid Rugaas's DVD on Calming Signals, as well as her book, My Dog Pulls, What Do I Do? are great resources for leash reactivity.

 

Brandiandwe's suggestion to initially start with having both owners between the dogs as they pass is a concept Turid calls splitting. If you encounter another dog on a walk, if you can keep yourself between Tracker and the other dog, it will help reduce his reaction. You may need to teach Tracker to walk next to you, and have him on the side farther away from passing foot traffic. It is easier if you have another person to walk with who can get between the dogs while you keep Tracker's attention. Using an barrier or another person between the dogs helps create artificial distance and is especially helpful when you are on a narrow path that restricts the amount of actual distance you can give the other dog.

 

If you can find an obedience class with a trainer who'll be flexible in allowing you to work more on desensitization and socialization and not necessarily the curriculum the rest of the dogs are following, that might be a good place to work on this. You can also do a lot on your own if you can find areas where dogs are in a more controlled setting, so that you can work a good distance away - like the outskirts of a park. Also, not sure if it's a reasonable distance, but isn't Dr. Sophia Yin in your general area?

[Brandiandwe]

jjng, everyone else in the class focuses on sit, heel, come etc. More traditional stuff I guess. We focus on a lack of tension and reaction and the stuff we need to do. I've been lucky in how flexible people have been in what I'm hoping to achieve.

[christinepi]

oops. Sorry. Don't know how this happened...

Edited March 9, 2012 by christinepi

[christinepi]

 

I understand the arc thing. But in real life, when I walk down a side walk (not that I do this much anymore with Tracker) or out in the woods, and somebody with a dog is coming my way (I avoid these situations given half a chance, by simply giving a wide berth or walking in a different direction), ALL Tracker wants to do is walk on a straight line right into the other dog's face

christinepi, I can't remember if you've posted what kind of training you've tried with Tracker or what progress you've made. But I was wondering if you're familiar with Turid Rugaas's techniques of curving and parallel walking? The premise is pretty similar as the concepts of arcing and giving a wide berth to other dogs, but she uses it in a slightly more structured way for training. It's more effective if you can set up controlled training sessions, but you can use these same concepts even on your walks when the other party isn't working with you. Turid Rugaas's DVD on Calming Signals, as well as her book, My Dog Pulls, What Do I Do? are great resources for leash reactivity.

 

Brandiandwe's suggestion to initially start with having both owners between the dogs as they pass is a concept Turid calls splitting. If you encounter another dog on a walk, if you can keep yourself between Tracker and the other dog, it will help reduce his reaction. You may need to teach Tracker to walk next to you, and have him on the side farther away from passing foot traffic. It is easier if you have another person to walk with who can get between the dogs while you keep Tracker's attention. Using an barrier or another person between the dogs helps create artificial distance and is especially helpful when you are on a narrow path that restricts the amount of actual distance you can give the other dog.

 

If you can find an obedience class with a trainer who'll be flexible in allowing you to work more on desensitization and socialization and not necessarily the curriculum the rest of the dogs are following, that might be a good place to work on this. You can also do a lot on your own if you can find areas where dogs are in a more controlled setting, so that you can work a good distance away - like the outskirts of a park. Also, not sure if it's a reasonable distance, but isn't Dr. Sophia Yin in your general area?

 

I'm still trying to find a class closer to me to see whether I could do what Brandiandwe's doing. Other than that we're currently avoiding situations that would lead to a problem and are working on attention on me kind of exercises and quick U-turns on walks. I can't set up controlled situations in public places (like side walks, beaches etc) here w/o getting other dogs and their owners involved, and I just don't know people whose dogs Tracker doesn't know. However, your suggestion to do something with him near a dog park is worth pursuing.

 

The main problem with this arcing/splitting thing and Tracker is: there's "nothing to arc", because he'll just stop walking, FREEZE, stare, completely focus on one thing and one thing only, and be unreachable. I practically have to drag him along. That's why I'm working on getting and KEEPING his attention so he can, in the future, keep walking with me despite the presence of another dog. This seems like a pretty elusive goal because he goes above threshold so fast.

 

I'll look into Turid's DVD and her book. Sophia Yin has consultations once a week in SF, that's an hour from me--it's an option, but I'll wait with that until I've exhausted my options down here.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

[JJNg]

The main problem with this arcing/splitting thing and Tracker is: there's "nothing to arc", because he'll just stop walking, FREEZE, stare, completely focus on one thing and one thing only, and be unreachable.

If he's unreachable, you're probably too close to the other dog. I know this is often unavoidable on regular walks, but if you can find some situations where you can use distance to your advantage, you may be able to make more progress. Dog parks with enough open space around them where you can watch from a distance. Or perhaps a pet store that allows dogs (like Petsmart or Petco), and you can do your training at the far end of the parking lot or off to the side, watching the dogs go in and out. Our local Petsmart has a relatively large open grassy area next to it that would be good for this type of work. Try to keep him moving as dogs are visible in the distance.

[christinepi]

It's like two separate challenges: one to raise his threshold over time, and one to "simply" avoid situations where he could go above threshold and work like heck with him. As long as he's below, he does listen quite well. Now I just have to get the gap to close more and more. But often all the good work seems out the window for a while when I get into one of these darned unavoidable situations again. Anyway, I just ordered "Click to Calm" and "My dog pulls".

[kudzu]

Then, this morning, it all came together on our walk. We were out early so it was dark. A small dog rushed out barking ferociously crossing the road and charging at us. The girls stopped, placed themselves between me and the dog and watched it relaxed. It took a couple of minutes until I could attract the owners attention and ask them to call their dog back, at which point it went and the girls walked on. No reaction at all. Then later, we met two very ill-mannered labs. They were luncging and pulling at their leashes and we were meeting head on. So we crossed the road, while they carried on. The girls sped up, but did nothing else. No lunging, barking, snarling or challening.

 

I'm so proud of them both!

 

 

YEAH!!!! Excellent job, all of you! Keep it up. What a wonderful change.

[XTRAWLD]

We were taught to meet other dogs and people with the dogs on opposing sides. If I see someone walking their dog towards us, I put my dog on the opposite side of the dog that I am approaching. Ask to sit, greet the person and just let the dogs look at eachother (diagonally across) presuming that person handles their dog accordingly. I don't practice the sit, and generally people I meet just let the dog come up to Ryder anyway, but I always put myself in the position between the two dogs.

[Brandiandwe]

Sigh. Remind me, everyone, that it's sometimes two steps forward and one step back. PK went off to obedience yesterday. It didn't go great, in part because I was shattered and upset at the start because the chief instructor came up and asked me to muzzle her and promised to explain later but that someone had made a complaint. She explained later that she had received an email about 'unmuzzled greyhounds' out in public who must be muzzled at all times by law when out in public. I told her that the law was that,EXCEPT when being shown or at a leashed obedience class. She also asked me if I knew about the recent law changes where my hounds can be assessed to be unmuzzled. And I had to tell her that I knew, that that was one of the reasons we were at obedience (to reduce small dog reactivity and prey drive). She's said that she thought that was the case (and this was confirmed by everyone else at the club), has sent an email back to the complainant and has encouraged me to come back. But during the class we were doing a 'weaving exercise, between other dogs around a circle and asking for attention. PK did great except with two small fluffies (and there were about 6 in the class) which she snapped at, though she moved on when I told her to 'leave it!'. One had done nothing and one moved towards her as she went past. Then later, an unleashed fluffy came up and she snapped at it.

 

Then this morning we met a fluffy off leash and without an owner. Booster barked and became excited, and while I was coping with that, PK zipped past me and pinned it.

 

I guess I'm feeling a bit dispirited, in part because I think PK picked up on my upset yesterday at obedience (because I would NEVER put another dog at risk, because Booster was at obedience last week, when the complaint was made and she behaved imacculately, and because I wasn't breaking the law so was dealing with breed prejudice), and in allowing myself to become upset, I've put PK back a few steps. She's a long was off becoming small dog safe.

 

I'm doing OK really, aren't I?

[christinepi]

Sigh. Remind me, everyone, that it's sometimes two steps forward and one step back. PK went off to obedience yesterday. It didn't go great, in part because I was shattered and upset at the start because the chief instructor came up and asked me to muzzle her and promised to explain later but that someone had made a complaint. She explained later that she had received an email about 'unmuzzled greyhounds' out in public who must be muzzled at all times by law when out in public. I told her that the law was that,EXCEPT when being shown or at a leashed obedience class. She also asked me if I knew about the recent law changes where my hounds can be assessed to be unmuzzled. And I had to tell her that I knew, that that was one of the reasons we were at obedience (to reduce small dog reactivity and prey drive). She's said that she thought that was the case (and this was confirmed by everyone else at the club), has sent an email back to the complainant and has encouraged me to come back. But during the class we were doing a 'weaving exercise, between other dogs around a circle and asking for attention. PK did great except with two small fluffies (and there were about 6 in the class) which she snapped at, though she moved on when I told her to 'leave it!'. One had done nothing and one moved towards her as she went past. Then later, an unleashed fluffy came up and she snapped at it.

 

Then this morning we met a fluffy off leash and without an owner. Booster barked and became excited, and while I was coping with that, PK zipped past me and pinned it.

 

I guess I'm feeling a bit dispirited, in part because I think PK picked up on my upset yesterday at obedience (because I would NEVER put another dog at risk, because Booster was at obedience last week, when the complaint was made and she behaved imacculately, and because I wasn't breaking the law so was dealing with breed prejudice), and in allowing myself to become upset, I've put PK back a few steps. She's a long was off becoming small dog safe.

 

I'm doing OK really, aren't I?

 

I think you are doing great. I don't think leash reactivity is something that will go away overnight (I've been working on it for quite some time), and dogs have their good days and not so good days, just like people. Give it time.

 

I take it you're in Australia? How sad that these gentle creatures all have to be muzzled there.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Don't want to be a downer here, but if your girl has high prey drive with small fluffy dogs now, what makes you think you can override thousands of years of instinct? Even if you get her to the point that she will listen to you and not snap/lunge at the little ankle biters, I would be willing to be that should she see one in an open field running, you could yell and call her all you wanted, she's going to do what nature has put into her DNA. As well as what happens when you are out walking, and suddenly out of under a car, or some bushes along the sidewalk a target (small fluffy) darts out between her legs before you can say anything? She's going to go into instinct mode. Heck my greyhounds that are good with ankle biters would probably lunge at a small target if it darted out from beneath a car or bushes, its their nature. Some greyhounds simply cant be around little dogs, or cats, or bunnies, or birds, etc. I do understand your issue with the muzzle, I find it rediculous as well, but a law is a law. I would just keep working with her for your own bonding and fun, not to try to get the muzzle off her. A muzzle really isnt that big of a deal, they can eat and drink through the muzzle. So she has to wear it when outside, they are used to it. Its really the human that has the issue with the muzzle, not the hound.