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Raw Food Diet


Guest DragonflyDM

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Guest DragonflyDM

I have been looking into putting my dog on a BARF raw food diet, but I have no idea which products are best to put him on. Anyone doing a raw food diet that can offer some advice and/or experiences with raw food diets?

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There are many people who feed raw and about a dozen threads about it. It's hard to search on given you need a minimum of 4 letters as a search parameter. One of the more comprehensive threads is by Sandra greyhound9797:

 

Raw Feeding Basics

 

 

Our dogs have benefited tremendously by being on a raw diet and Bumper, in particular, is helped by the reduced stool volume. I'd estimate 35% - 40% of kibble volume, not to mention all stools are firm and poop frequency is reduced (important in his case). There are many opinions on raw feeding - some are dead set against it, others wouldn't choose anything else. To each his/her own and same thing for the hound...some may do well, some may not. Brucie hasn't had a dental in over 3 years and while Bumper just had 16 extractions, they were from all teeth canines and forward (he was a crate chewer at the track). His molars are in perfect health.

 

PS - We switched cold turkey without incident (it's a common question). Good luck and good on you for considering this feeding option.

Doe's Bruciebaby Doe's Bumper

Derek

Follow my Ironman journeys and life with dogs, cats and busy kids: A long road

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If you go to Google, click on Advanced search, then put in your search terms, "raw food", "raw diet" or even just "raw", then go to Site or Domain and type in Greytalk.com you can search all through GT for your search terms. It works really well, much better than the GT search engine.

 

Here are the links I found when using the term "raw diet":

 

Raw Diet

 

Starting a Raw Diet

 

Raw Diet Questions

 

etc!

Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog)

Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014

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Guest DragonflyDM

I appreciate the advice on the searches.. I had gotten that far. My question (and I guess I wasn’t clear) was WHICH diet do you use? Is there a brand you like best or is more cost efficient or you think is better quality?

 

Thanks.

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I like My Pet Carnivore but they are probably too far from you. They have ready mixed blends and whole animal blends etc. of the appropriate amounts of organ vs muscle vs bone etc. so I don't have to worry with it. Just thaw it out and the dogs love it-hign quality-balanced-all ready to go.

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Guest greyhound9797

I appreciate the advice on the searches.. I had gotten that far. My question (and I guess I wasn’t clear) was WHICH diet do you use? Is there a brand you like best or is more cost efficient or you think is better quality?

 

Thanks.

The best "diet" is not a diet, it's simply feeding raw meat, bones and organs. It's not a brand, it's not a recipe; it's getting the food from your local market (or other places you'll learn about reading the Raw Feeding Basics thread) and giving it to your dog. Choosing a prey model diet (ONLY meat, bones and organ) isn't cheap but it can be comparable to feeding a good quality food that you'll find in specialty boutiques, (nothing that you'd find in a grocery store or Petsmart). The quality of the raw diet doesn't compare to commercial dog food, including the frozen or dehydrated packages that you buy.

 

Try it and I promise that you won't be disappointed in the results! :colgate

 

Sandra

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Oops, sorry about that! I cobble one together based on my vet's advice and my raw food mentor (friend). 1/3 each of Xkaliber (from greentrip.com, we have a quarterly purchasing group), 1/3 pet mix (lots of innards like spleen and liver, ground bone, etc) from a local butcher who also makes a variety of raw pet foods and 1/3 another meat source. Sometimes a meal will be 1/2 a cornish game hen. For bone: a turkey or duck neck or some chicken feet for bones. Then I add a spoonful of veggie puree I make. I don't use any cruciferous vegies in it, per my vet, since mine are both hypothyroid. Carl doesn't do well with chicken, so I stay away from it.

Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog)

Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014

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Guest DragonflyDM

I appreciate the advice on the searches.. I had gotten that far. My question (and I guess I wasn’t clear) was WHICH diet do you use? Is there a brand you like best or is more cost efficient or you think is better quality?

 

Thanks.

The best "diet" is not a diet, it's simply feeding raw meat, bones and organs. It's not a brand, it's not a recipe; it's getting the food from your local market (or other places you'll learn about reading the Raw Feeding Basics thread) and giving it to your dog. Choosing a prey model diet (ONLY meat, bones and organ) isn't cheap but it can be comparable to feeding a good quality food that you'll find in specialty boutiques, (nothing that you'd find in a grocery store or Petsmart). The quality of the raw diet doesn't compare to commercial dog food, including the frozen or dehydrated packages that you buy.

 

Try it and I promise that you won't be disappointed in the results! :colgate

 

Sandra

 

Sandra... so is there anything I should avoid when I go to the store? Is there anything I should ask about specifically? There is a lot of reading I have been doing but I think everyone is pretty evasive on specifics (probably more like what you were saying). I assum that just ground chuck isn't the answer. But can I just pull some chicken or turkey legs and a cow knuckle??? Something from the back of the butcher shop that might be a good idea?

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Guest greyhound9797

Sandra... so is there anything I should avoid when I go to the store? Is there anything I should ask about specifically? There is a lot of reading I have been doing but I think everyone is pretty evasive on specifics (probably more like what you were saying). I assum that just ground chuck isn't the answer. But can I just pull some chicken or turkey legs and a cow knuckle??? Something from the back of the butcher shop that might be a good idea?

I'm not trying to be terse with you but since we're not speaking face to face, it may come out that way so I apologize in advance. I'm not trying to be mean, honest!! :colgate

 

If you read the very first post in the "basics" thread you'll answer your own question.

 

You want to feed 2-3% of your dogs IDEAL adult body weight. There is a handy calculator here... http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm You may want to start at 2% and adjust as necessary. I know it really doesn't sound like a lot of food and it may not LOOK like a lot but remember they are getting everything they need with this diet, without fillers, vegetables and grains.

 

You want to stick around 80% meat, 10% EDIBLE bone, 5% liver and 5% other organ (this can be adjusted as you learn what your hound tolerates comfortably). Stomach/tripe, heart, gizzards and tongue are considered meat, as they are truly muscles (the white tripe you find in the grocery, honeycomb tripe, is bleached and processed and is NOT suitable to feed). All other organs - brain, lung, pancreas, kidney, gullet, spleen, trachea, etc - are the other 5% of the organs. If you feed a very bony meal today, (large turkey legs for example) feed an all meat meal tomorrow. If they are getting too much bone, you will know by their poop (see below and YES, you need to watch their poop!). It's not a concern, you just need to adjust the diet a bit for a day or two. The 80/10/5/5 is simply a guide. Some dogs need 20% bone because they have consistently soft stools. You will know what looks correct with just a bit of time. Beef, bison, elk and similar animals' bones are too dense and are not considered edible. they simply cause tooth damage.

 

Most people start with chicken as it is easily digested and affordable. Stay away from enhanced meat as it has added sodium. Plain old chicken has about 90 grams sodium in it which is acceptable. Enhanced meat will have several hundred more and can cause loose stool and sometimes vomiting in some dogs. Some are not bothered by it tho. Throw your dog a chicken quarter or bone-in breast and stand back and watch. Some dogs don't realize it is food and may lick it, play with it or bury it. Let them have it for 15-20 minutes. If they don't it eat, pick it up and save it til the next meal and repeat. By the third time they WILL eat it (and will not starve in the meantime). As you may know, dogs digestion starts in the stomach, not the mouth like ours does, so some may chew, chew and swallow it almost whole but don't worry. It will either stay down or they will yack it back up and try again. Stick with chicken for 2-3 weeks but follow BMs. They may have runny stools or stools with a bit of mucous at the very start as their bodies get used to a new diet but it should clear up within a few days. If it continues longer, fast for a day and start over. BMs should be firm and small. They will most likely have fewer BMs too so don't be alarmed if they don't poop for a day or two.

 

By this time, you may be noticing changes in them...fresher breath, less itching and scratching and coats may look better. Yes, it really DOES happen in just a couple weeks.

 

Once they are doing fine with chicken, try a new protein; pork maybe. Buy a pork picnic, a huge one, and cut it appropriate sizes and toss it down. By now they know it is food and their jaws have become stronger so they will have a fun time chewing it up. Some dogs are gulpers and some, like Piper, eat like a lady. Feed pork for 2 weeks then introduce a new protein like turkey (which, by the way, IS different than chicken).

 

After about 5-6 weeks of their first raw food, start adding some organ meat but in SMALL amounts. Liver is very rich and can cause loose stools if given too much too soon. Some people feed organ and/or liver every day, some every other day, some a couple days a week. Its not a life or death situation to feed EXACTLY 10% organ. I usually feed liver for maybe 5 days then some other organ for 5 days then back to liver; sometimes Piper doesn't get any organ for a week, it just depends on what I grab out of the freezer. Its really up to you and variety is created over time. Don't feel like you need to feed 80/10/5/5 every meal.

 

Now you repeat with a new protein. You can feed pretty much any animal under the sun, including fish. Feel free to feed chicken and pork in the same meal, it doesn't hurt. Mix and match your proteins.

 

You do not need to supplement with anything expect possibly fish body oil but make sure it does not have soy in it as some pets are very sensitive to it.

 

So, to sum it up...open refrigerator, remove chicken quarter, toss to dog, dog eats. End of story. Yes, it is that simple.

 

Knuckle bones are not edible. Any bones marketed as "dog food" are not edible, they are for recreational gnawing but actually can cause harm to teeth since they are so much harder than the teeth themselves. The only bones (meaning just bones, no meat) from a store that you should buy if you need them are turkey or chicken necks or backs.

 

You're right, plain old ground chuck isn't the answer. You can feed ground meat but I only keep it on hand if I forget to thaw something and dinner time is coming up. Ground food doesn't provide any dental benefits (though many people will buy those "bones for dogs" which isn't the same) or mental stimulation. It's like us eating oatmeal for every meal...BOOOOORing ;)

 

Find out when your supermarket marks down their meat and visit the store then. When quarters or whole chickens are on sale super cheap, stock up. I bought a commercial freezer because I buy in bulk from a meat distributor every 6 weeks and get great prices. I realize not everyone has the space to do that but it definitely helps.

 

The raw diet isn't for every person (but it should be!) but it IS for every dog. My best advice is to read this http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/242512-raw-feeding-basics/, focusing on the first thread (take notes if it helps, that's what I did in the beginning until I was totally comfortable with it), then ask questions. It's easy, really it is, but most people are afraid of messing it up. If you're unsure of something, ask the forum or email me directly. I've "mentored" several people on the raw diet so I don't mind helping at all. There are different ways to do it but I believe that the prey model - meat, bones and organ without fruits, veggies, dairy, etc - is the best and most natural way.

 

Sandra

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Guest greyhound9797

Oops, sorry about that! I cobble one together based on my vet's advice and my raw food mentor (friend). 1/3 each of Xkaliber (from greentrip.com, we have a quarterly purchasing group), 1/3 pet mix (lots of innards like spleen and liver, ground bone, etc) from a local butcher who also makes a variety of raw pet foods and 1/3 another meat source. Sometimes a meal will be 1/2 a cornish game hen. For bone: a turkey or duck neck or some chicken feet for bones. Then I add a spoonful of veggie puree I make. I don't use any cruciferous vegies in it, per my vet, since mine are both hypothyroid. Carl doesn't do well with chicken, so I stay away from it.

 

I understand that people feed raw differently but how do you know exactly what you're getting from the Xkaliber product? I'd buy plain old green tripe in a heartbeat but not mixed with other stuff. The description for it is XKALIBER: Green Tripe, Muscle Meat, Heart, Tongue, Trachea/Gullet and Ground Bone Ummm..heart and tongue ARE muscle meat.

 

The "mix" that you feed doesn't break down how much spleen, liver, bone, etc is in it, does it? So your dog can be getting too much/too little bone but you can't really control it with a pre-made mix.

 

If you're feeding the xkaliber that has bone and a mix that has bone why do you need to add a neck or feet? If you buy a whole chicken and feed it in appropriately sized meals you know exactly what you're getting.

 

Being 100% carnivores, dogs don't need those veggies, cruciferous or not.

 

The majority of vets do not support a raw diet since they were bombarded by pet food companies in school and in their practices and they actually get very few credit hours specifically on nutrition. If you can find one who does they usually also support minimal vaccines, herbs, chiropractic medicine, acupuncture, etc. I'm not saying I'm a vet, an expert or a nutritionist but doesn't it make sense to feed what nature intended and what dogs have survived on for thousands of years?

 

Sandra

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A happy raw feeder here (since 2000, greys & kittehs). I don't feed a prepared diet but put it together myself. The prepared diets are really expensive. I had tried some mixes in the past & my guys wouldn't eat them - maybe there was some ingredient in it that they didn't like. But they love the individual ingredients & I love to be able to switch things up for variety. chow.gif

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Deirdre with Conor (Daring Pocobueno), Keeva (Kiowa Mimi Mona), & kittehs Gemma & robthomas.

Our beloved angels Faolin & Liath, & kittehs Mona & Caesar. Remembering Bobby, Doc McCoy, & Chip McGrath.

"He feeds you, pets you, adores you, collects your poop in a bag. There's only one explanation: you are a hairy little god." Nick Galifinakis

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Oops, sorry about that! I cobble one together based on my vet's advice and my raw food mentor (friend). 1/3 each of Xkaliber (from greentrip.com, we have a quarterly purchasing group), 1/3 pet mix (lots of innards like spleen and liver, ground bone, etc) from a local butcher who also makes a variety of raw pet foods and 1/3 another meat source. Sometimes a meal will be 1/2 a cornish game hen. For bone: a turkey or duck neck or some chicken feet for bones. Then I add a spoonful of veggie puree I make. I don't use any cruciferous vegies in it, per my vet, since mine are both hypothyroid. Carl doesn't do well with chicken, so I stay away from it.

 

I understand that people feed raw differently but how do you know exactly what you're getting from the Xkaliber product? I'd buy plain old green tripe in a heartbeat but not mixed with other stuff. The description for it is XKALIBER: Green Tripe, Muscle Meat, Heart, Tongue, Trachea/Gullet and Ground Bone Ummm..heart and tongue ARE muscle meat.

 

The "mix" that you feed doesn't break down how much spleen, liver, bone, etc is in it, does it? So your dog can be getting too much/too little bone but you can't really control it with a pre-made mix.

 

If you're feeding the xkaliber that has bone and a mix that has bone why do you need to add a neck or feet? If you buy a whole chicken and feed it in appropriately sized meals you know exactly what you're getting.

 

Being 100% carnivores, dogs don't need those veggies, cruciferous or not.

 

The majority of vets do not support a raw diet since they were bombarded by pet food companies in school and in their practices and they actually get very few credit hours specifically on nutrition. If you can find one who does they usually also support minimal vaccines, herbs, chiropractic medicine, acupuncture, etc. I'm not saying I'm a vet, an expert or a nutritionist but doesn't it make sense to feed what nature intended and what dogs have survived on for thousands of years?

 

Sandra

My vet feeds her dogs raw, works with the butcher who makes the pet mix (he also makes and sells premade raw based on recipes from my vet). My vet helped me as I began the "raw journey", suggested changes and has reviewed my dogs diets over the course of the last year. She has given it her blessing and I trust her implicitly. Between she and my friend who has guided me in the last year, and who has about 30 years of experience feeding her dogs raw, my dogs are in a good place.

 

In terms of veggies, my vet also supports giving a small amount, even includes a small amount for her own dogs. You are right, we all approach this differently, so take heed of your own words and be respectful, Sandra.

Edited by seeh2o

Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog)

Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014

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The majority of vets do not support a raw diet since they were bombarded by pet food companies in school and in their practices and they actually get very few credit hours specifically on nutrition. If you can find one who does they usually also support minimal vaccines, herbs, chiropractic medicine, acupuncture, etc. I'm not saying I'm a vet, an expert or a nutritionist but doesn't it make sense to feed what nature intended and what dogs have survived on for thousands of years?

 

Sandra

 

Further, your assumption seems to be that my vet follows mainstream diet principals and is completely off-base. She "practices veterinary homeopathy, veterinary chiropractic, and preventative medicine. We offer acupuncture and physical therapy, as well as consultation in emotional control, behavior modification, nutrition and supplementation." As I stated before, has been one of my touchstones throughout this first year of feeding my dogs raw and she fully supports what I feed my dogs.

 

The tone of your post really stuck in my craw, filled with assumptions and implying that I haven't done my homework, I found it to be very patronizing, which is very unnecessary and speaks volumes. Your approach to feeding raw is no more right or wrong than my approach to feeding raw. My dogs are thriving, their coats are beautiful. Their bloodwork is beautiful, too, never better, in fact.

Edited by seeh2o

Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog)

Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014

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Guest barkdogs

Actually, dogs are opportunistic carnivores, and as we all know they are in no way above being scavengers. They are not obligate (100%) carnivores (as are cats) also dogs have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years so they are not precisely like wolves in terms of their GI. They do have the GI of a carnivore although the cecum is somewhat larger suggesting some ability to break down non meat items, at least in reasonable quantities. Domestication is a huge factor here--domestication means that there are changes at the genetic level from the wild wolf ancestor. Having taught animal anatomy to first year vet students (I am not a vet, but I know my anatomy) for 7 years, I can say that I have found some pretty interesting things in dog stomachs.

 

Feed a cat a vegetarian diet and it will eventually die, as cats require certain aminos that are only found in meat. Dogs can survive as vegetarians (although I would question how really healthy a diet it is) as their bodies have adapted for tens of thousands of years to living with humans.

 

If the dog is healthy and stays healthy, then the diet probably works. I do not believe that the same diet is necessarily appropriate for every dog anymore than the same diet is for all humans. I have one greyhound who just does not care for raw. I wish he did because it makes it harder for me to keep his teeth healthy but he just does not care for it. Oh well.

 

Also be aware that there is a rare and nasty parasite that can show up in raw beef neospora caninum. There have been cases of fairly rapid deaths amongst puppies so anyone feeding a pregnant bitch should be aware of this and may want to stay away from raw beef. Some sites say that freezing kills the parasite but I don't think it is really been definitively determined. It is quite rare

 

Bottom line is I would love to see a really comprehensive study on raw diets. I had been feeding one but after possible neospora exposure (cysts in a stool sample, which unfortunately prove little--I will get blood titers done shortly) I am shy about the beef. They have done well with chicken but one dog did get a campylobactor infection--yuck. I have had those go through the pack before. Granted, they could have picked it up anywhere but raw poultry is a big carrier so I am sure it's quite possible that is where it came from. So I am back to more cooked but I am phasing the chicken back in. I am pretty careful in my raw meat handling but with 6 dogs, one can only be so careful. . . .

 

I know a number of vets who are open minded to raw feeding and even those ones say that one should not feed raw to immune compromised dogs. Also it can be a problem if you have an immune compromised one in a healthy pack.

 

I saw a lot of great benefits in feeding raw, and I would like to incorporate more back into my dog's diets. But it is not without some risks. I certainly had some great results, but I want to eliminate some of the downsides as much as possible before going back to doing a lot of it.

 

I personally am in the "feed ssome veggies" camp. If they are pureed and if some are cooked (I think that helps with the cruciferous ones in terms of the thyroid issues) they certainly should be able to get some of the vitamins from them. Also veggies help with antioxidant activity, which is supposed to help in prevention of some cancers. Also I had good luck with raw veggies in helping reduce seizures in an australian shepherd--I have seen others have some significant results in being able to reduce the amount of meds needed or even eliminate meds in seizures dogs. I have not seen a study that backs this up but I have seen it annecdotally.

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Guest DragonflyDM

Sandra,

 

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't mean a pet store knuckle, but a fresh one from the butcher.

 

Your note was very comprehensive, but there is a bit of nervous trepidation starting. I worry mostly about choking. Boomer is a dog that attacks his food. He will swallow first, vomit later if it was a bad idea. So I was hoping that there was some "dos and don'ts" hints and advice. If I throw a half a chicken what do I worry about for choking?

 

To start is it better to purchase the pre-made patties? Are there organizations or stores that are better to use? Can you get scrap meat from the butcher or is that not good meat?

 

That kind of stuff.--- but what you have given is already so amazingly useful. Thank you.

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Guest DragonflyDM

I will also say that I tried to give my grey pumpkin to deal with loose stool...he will not eat. Although he will eat mushroom barley soup. He has stolen entire jars of peanut butter and devoured it.

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Actually, dogs are opportunistic carnivores, and as we all know they are in no way above being scavengers. They are not obligate (100%) carnivores (as are cats) also dogs have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years so they are not precisely like wolves in terms of their GI. They do have the GI of a carnivore although the cecum is somewhat larger suggesting some ability to break down non meat items, at least in reasonable quantities. Domestication is a huge factor here--domestication means that there are changes at the genetic level from the wild wolf ancestor. Having taught animal anatomy to first year vet students (I am not a vet, but I know my anatomy) for 7 years, I can say that I have found some pretty interesting things in dog stomachs.

 

Feed a cat a vegetarian diet and it will eventually die, as cats require certain aminos that are only found in meat. Dogs can survive as vegetarians (although I would question how really healthy a diet it is) as their bodies have adapted for tens of thousands of years to living with humans.

 

If the dog is healthy and stays healthy, then the diet probably works. I do not believe that the same diet is necessarily appropriate for every dog anymore than the same diet is for all humans. I have one greyhound who just does not care for raw. I wish he did because it makes it harder for me to keep his teeth healthy but he just does not care for it. Oh well.

 

Also be aware that there is a rare and nasty parasite that can show up in raw beef neospora caninum. There have been cases of fairly rapid deaths amongst puppies so anyone feeding a pregnant bitch should be aware of this and may want to stay away from raw beef. Some sites say that freezing kills the parasite but I don't think it is really been definitively determined. It is quite rare

 

Bottom line is I would love to see a really comprehensive study on raw diets. I had been feeding one but after possible neospora exposure (cysts in a stool sample, which unfortunately prove little--I will get blood titers done shortly) I am shy about the beef. They have done well with chicken but one dog did get a campylobactor infection--yuck. I have had those go through the pack before. Granted, they could have picked it up anywhere but raw poultry is a big carrier so I am sure it's quite possible that is where it came from. So I am back to more cooked but I am phasing the chicken back in. I am pretty careful in my raw meat handling but with 6 dogs, one can only be so careful. . . .

 

I know a number of vets who are open minded to raw feeding and even those ones say that one should not feed raw to immune compromised dogs. Also it can be a problem if you have an immune compromised one in a healthy pack.

 

I saw a lot of great benefits in feeding raw, and I would like to incorporate more back into my dog's diets. But it is not without some risks. I certainly had some great results, but I want to eliminate some of the downsides as much as possible before going back to doing a lot of it.

 

I personally am in the "feed ssome veggies" camp. If they are pureed and if some are cooked (I think that helps with the cruciferous ones in terms of the thyroid issues) they certainly should be able to get some of the vitamins from them. Also veggies help with antioxidant activity, which is supposed to help in prevention of some cancers. Also I had good luck with raw veggies in helping reduce seizures in an australian shepherd--I have seen others have some significant results in being able to reduce the amount of meds needed or even eliminate meds in seizures dogs. I have not seen a study that backs this up but I have seen it annecdotally.

 

 

I just wanted to mention that this was a very thoughtful and thorough answer. I haven't heard about the neospora in raw meat before so thank you for providing that information.

 

I might add that feeding raw in homes where there are children or immune compromised individuals can be a questionable practice especially when raw chicken is being fed because of bacteria like e.coli or salmonella and in some cases shigella all of which tend to be present on chicken because of the way that they are eviscerated at the slaughterhouse.

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My vet feeds her dogs raw, works with the butcher who makes the pet mix (he also makes and sells premade raw based on recipes from my vet). My vet helped me as I began the "raw journey", suggested changes and has reviewed my dogs diets over the course of the last year. She has given it her blessing and I trust her implicitly. Between she and my friend who has guided me in the last year, and who has about 30 years of experience feeding her dogs raw, my dogs are in a good place.

 

In terms of veggies, my vet also supports giving a small amount, even includes a small amount for her own dogs. You are right, we all approach this differently, so take heed of your own words and be respectful, Sandra.

I'm sorry, I felt I was being respectful which is why I asked questions. I guess if I was being disrespectful I would've said you were doing something wrong simply because it isn't the way I do it. However, I did bring up valid points about the ingredients of the Xkaliber being vague, a mix not being standard and the fact that most vets don't support raw feeding. Those were the things that I was questioning. I didn't mean to imply that your vet doesn't support raw feeding. How would I come to the conclusion since I don't know who your vet is? My statement was sort of a warning/caveat for dragonfly (or others) to be aware that his/her vet will probably say to only feed Science Diet or some other commercial food.

 

 

 

Further, your assumption seems to be that my vet follows mainstream diet principals and is completely off-base. She "practices veterinary homeopathy, veterinary chiropractic, and preventative medicine. We offer acupuncture and physical therapy, as well as consultation in emotional control, behavior modification, nutrition and supplementation." As I stated before, has been one of my touchstones throughout this first year of feeding my dogs raw and she fully supports what I feed my dogs.

 

The tone of your post really stuck in my craw, filled with assumptions and implying that I haven't done my homework, I found it to be very patronizing, which is very unnecessary and speaks volumes. Your approach to feeding raw is no more right or wrong than my approach to feeding raw. My dogs are thriving, their coats are beautiful. Their bloodwork is beautiful, too, never better, in fact.

Again, I didn't mean to imply anything negative about what you're doing but if you feel that insulting me because you misunderstood what I wrote is appropriate, that's okay with me. I would prefer to have someone notify me offline via a PM about how they felt instead of doing it on the board, though.

 

When I started feeding raw in 2007 I began with more of a BARF diet, feeding fruits, veggies, flax seed, dairy, etc and then I realized that I didn't feel that was how I wanted to feed my dog so I switched to prey model. That in of itself shows that I'm open to new things but now, after 5 years, I am sold on prey model. My dog, too, is thriving, has beautiful coat and great blood work. People say that about their dog who has eaten Purina for 10 years so who am I to argue? I simply state what I believe in.

 

I'm sorry that you were offended by my questions and statements. Since we have actually commented together and agreed on several posts in the past I'm very surprised that this one stuck in your craw.

 

Sandra

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We have an immune suppressed dog as well as kids and still feed raw. That said, the kids don't help with the food prep and the dog is on a really low maintenance dose of an immunosupressant. We are certainly careful, though, and do daily poop checks. Bumper will poop in the house daily on kibble (volume of waste issue) but has no trouble holding it overnight on raw.

 

To address the choking point...this is where every dog and feeder are different, We transitioned Squirt upon adoption 2 months ago and watched her very closely. Didn't take her long to realize she has to chew chew chew those chicken backs or feet. I give her smaller sizes than what the boys get, so you can control what goes in. For me, though some would disagree, I will cut pieces so they can chew better, but not make them small enough such that they'd want to swallow whole and potentially choke. On the rare occasion a dog has vomited, say, a few hours after a meal, only undigested bone has been left. I learned very quickly what size bone was too big and I'll either not feed it, or cut it smaller (if possible).

 

We started with commercial, pre prepped packages ordered online. It was a great and easy transition to raw but it wasn't long before we decided to buy meats from the store and do it ourselves. My suggestion is to start with whatever is easiest. Ground beef and chicken backs are simple and less of a mess to start than whole chicken breast or whatever. Greyhounds are not strangers to beef as that is a main part of their track diet. Add in some liver, kidney or organ meat and you're off and running. After a couple weeks, try another protein source like chicken or pork. Get some duck, chicken, or turkey necks for bone. Add in some green tripe. Beef heart, tongue is a muscle meat (not an organ). Throw in some anchovies at some point too if you like. My dogs get a raw egg every couple days as well. In a few more weeks, you can try adding larger cuts of meat, etc. There is no rush...each meal doesn't have to be a perfect ratio nor does it have to be uber creative. The idea with raw is that the pet gets needed variety over time. I told our pet sitter the other day (he has had to stay with the dogs last 2 weekends) that he will a) not make them fat b ) not make them skinny, c) not make a bad meal (except if there is too much organ meat as it causes loose stools).

 

I actually quite enjoy scouting deals and shopping for the dogs and I also have sources for bulk items. We ended up buying a freezer because of the bulk buying and bulk food prep. Also, just recently (and surely to the chagrin or raw food purists), I bought a commercial food grinder to grind bone and blend various meats all in one shot. While you don't get dental benefits that way, Bumper (as mentioned above) had 16 dental extractions due to crate chewing at the track. While he is healing, the ground mixture has worked perfectly (the other dogs have to chew their bone).

 

I didn't mean for this to be long and drawn out, but wanted to give you a straightforward approach we use that works for us. The benefits in our hounds are clear and undeniable and feeding time is certainly a happy occasion at our house. Once the snow melts and the dogs can spend more time outside, we'll go back to feeding them some of the messier items outside. This may sound ridiculous / gross to most people, but our dogs LOVE to chase down the necks and feet we'll throw to them in the yard (one at a time prevents disagreements between dogs). But once they get their 'prey/toy/food', they happily toss them around before munching down. Great mental stimulation for them and fun to watch!

 

Good luck...it's easy to start and easy to keep feeding raw. Don't sweat the minor details every meal. Your hound will probably want to drag anything they have to chew to their bed...teach them early to stand and chew over their bowl. It really is that simple and the benefits are staggering! Hope this helps!

Doe's Bruciebaby Doe's Bumper

Derek

Follow my Ironman journeys and life with dogs, cats and busy kids: A long road

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Guest greyhound9797

Sandra,

 

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't mean a pet store knuckle, but a fresh one from the butcher.

 

Your note was very comprehensive, but there is a bit of nervous trepidation starting. I worry mostly about choking. Boomer is a dog that attacks his food. He will swallow first, vomit later if it was a bad idea. So I was hoping that there was some "dos and don'ts" hints and advice. If I throw a half a chicken what do I worry about for choking?

 

To start is it better to purchase the pre-made patties? Are there organizations or stores that are better to use? Can you get scrap meat from the butcher or is that not good meat?

 

That kind of stuff.--- but what you have given is already so amazingly useful. Thank you.

The pet store knuckle and the butcher one are pretty much the same except the pet store one has probably been smoked or has some additional flavoring to it. Still, it's a knuckle bone. Weight bearing bones of large ungluates (any part of the leg or foot bone from a hooved animal) is not edible. Overtime a dog could gnaw off bits and pieces but again, they can be dangerous to the teeth.

 

I was nervous too. I gave Piper a chicken wing (btw - chicken wings are too small for greys and have too much bone), convinced that she would choke, and watched her like a hawk. She ate it like a lady, crunching several times before she swallowed and that was the start of her raw feeding. I've seen my greys "choke" on their food but they do the same thing we do; either we cough it back up or it wiggles its way down. Piper vomited a few times after she first started then she ate it again. Gross for us but perfectly natural for them. If Boomer swallows first then vomits later you need to feed him big and/or cumbersome food, like a half chicken----literally. He can't swallow a half chicken so he'll need to learn to chew pieces off. He'll still eat pieces that will make your own throat hurt but he's fine. Dogs don't chew and chew and chew to taste their food, they chew maybe a couple times to make sure it's a swallowable size then down it goes.

 

The pre-made patties 1)are expensive; 2)contain stuff Boomer doesn't need; and 3)boring and easily swallowed. I hate to ask but did you read that first post in the thread I suggested? It tells you where to look for cheap sources. You're near Pittsburgh so you may be able to find a co-op (a group of people) who purchases huge quantities from a meat distributor. I bet you know hunters; ask them for stuff. I get 75% of my food from a distributor and the other 25% from grocery store sales. Since stores are regional and prices differ, you need to do your homework and find the best place to buy from. Don't ask the butcher for scrap, you want whole meat - whole chicken, whole turkey, huge pieces of pork, etc. If you have a local butcher shop that you frequent, or have been able to get friendly with the butcher in your store, sometimes they'll give you a bit of a deal on things if you buy in large quantities. Most stores can order cases/bulk amounts of many different things, you just need to ask.

 

Starting raw doesn't happen overnight, you definitely need to do your homework, learn about the diet, find your sources, etc. Keep asking questions!!

 

Sandra

 

I will also say that I tried to give my grey pumpkin to deal with loose stool...he will not eat. Although he will eat mushroom barley soup. He has stolen entire jars of peanut butter and devoured it.

Loose stool means "something" and feeding pumpkin doesn't tell you what it is. If you had loose stool every day, wouldn't YOU want to find out what was causing it instead of just taking a pill to "fix" it? Loose stool on raw often times mean that the dog isn't getting enough bone. Piper was perfect at the recommended 10%. MeMe needs more like 20% or she has very loose stool. That's a great example of how the diet differs for different dogs and the basics I provided are a starting point, a guide, not something set in stone.

 

From what you're saying, it sounds like you may need to Boomer-proof your kitchen. If he's eating soup and entire jars of peanut butter, things might be too readily accessible for him. Curb that counter surfing/pantry nosing/dumpster diving before he eats something that causes a serious problem.

 

Sandra

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Guest jbbuzby

Another person with awesome information is Jennifer Bachelor at Neversaynevergreyhounds. She's done a few posts on her blog recently about feeding raw:

 

http://neversaynevergreyhounds.blogspot.com/

 

And Also on her website:

 

http://www.neversaynevergreyhounds.net/barf_info.html

 

http://www.neversaynevergreyhounds.net/barf.html

 

http://www.neversaynevergreyhounds.net/barf_faqs.html

 

FWIW, she also sees the benefit of adding vegetables to the meat, and even has a dog or two(of their dozen or so) that could not tolerate the BARF diet and are on kibble, despite her originally being a firm believer of it being for "every dog." I think it makes her an increasingly valuable source to have had to come to that conclusion. Now she feeds all of her dogs raw in the morning and high quality kibble at night with, as she puts it, "The best of both worlds!"

 

Going off of her recommendations, I think I too will do both raw and kibble in a similar regard as she does (though I might just skip the vegetables since they'll hopefully get that in their kibble, besides the occasional canned pumpkin which I'm lucky enough to have my pups LOVE).

 

Be sure to check it out though, as she has good ideas of how much to feed of necks/chicken backs and things, if you were still trying to figure out how to portion things :). Good luck! I'm right there with you learning about it (I've just been giving the occasional turkey neck up until recently!).

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Actually, dogs are opportunistic carnivores, and as we all know they are in no way above being scavengers. They are not obligate (100%) carnivores (as are cats) also dogs have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years so they are not precisely like wolves in terms of their GI. They do have the GI of a carnivore although the cecum is somewhat larger suggesting some ability to break down non meat items, at least in reasonable quantities. Domestication is a huge factor here--domestication means that there are changes at the genetic level from the wild wolf ancestor. Having taught animal anatomy to first year vet students (I am not a vet, but I know my anatomy) for 7 years, I can say that I have found some pretty interesting things in dog stomachs.

 

Feed a cat a vegetarian diet and it will eventually die, as cats require certain aminos that are only found in meat. Dogs can survive as vegetarians (although I would question how really healthy a diet it is) as their bodies have adapted for tens of thousands of years to living with humans.

 

If the dog is healthy and stays healthy, then the diet probably works. I do not believe that the same diet is necessarily appropriate for every dog anymore than the same diet is for all humans. I have one greyhound who just does not care for raw. I wish he did because it makes it harder for me to keep his teeth healthy but he just does not care for it. Oh well.

 

Also be aware that there is a rare and nasty parasite that can show up in raw beef neospora caninum. There have been cases of fairly rapid deaths amongst puppies so anyone feeding a pregnant bitch should be aware of this and may want to stay away from raw beef. Some sites say that freezing kills the parasite but I don't think it is really been definitively determined. It is quite rare

 

Bottom line is I would love to see a really comprehensive study on raw diets. I had been feeding one but after possible neospora exposure (cysts in a stool sample, which unfortunately prove little--I will get blood titers done shortly) I am shy about the beef. They have done well with chicken but one dog did get a campylobactor infection--yuck. I have had those go through the pack before. Granted, they could have picked it up anywhere but raw poultry is a big carrier so I am sure it's quite possible that is where it came from. So I am back to more cooked but I am phasing the chicken back in. I am pretty careful in my raw meat handling but with 6 dogs, one can only be so careful. . . .

 

I know a number of vets who are open minded to raw feeding and even those ones say that one should not feed raw to immune compromised dogs. Also it can be a problem if you have an immune compromised one in a healthy pack.

 

I saw a lot of great benefits in feeding raw, and I would like to incorporate more back into my dog's diets. But it is not without some risks. I certainly had some great results, but I want to eliminate some of the downsides as much as possible before going back to doing a lot of it.

 

I personally am in the "feed ssome veggies" camp. If they are pureed and if some are cooked (I think that helps with the cruciferous ones in terms of the thyroid issues) they certainly should be able to get some of the vitamins from them. Also veggies help with antioxidant activity, which is supposed to help in prevention of some cancers. Also I had good luck with raw veggies in helping reduce seizures in an australian shepherd--I have seen others have some significant results in being able to reduce the amount of meds needed or even eliminate meds in seizures dogs. I have not seen a study that backs this up but I have seen it annecdotally.

 

This was informative, thanks! I also wasn't aware of the neosporosis risk w/ raw beef.

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Guest DragonflyDM

Boomer won’t go into the kitchen…but we figured he wouldn’t go into the pantry because of the tile--- however, he roughed it---- it is Boomer proofed now…lol

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Guest DragonflyDM

Well, we started the Raw diet this week and we are on day four. His poops are already starting to harden up and he certainly is pooping less.

 

His first experience was to look at me like “you aren’t serious. I will get in trouble.” I assured him it was OK, but then had to leave the room so he could “steal” the food and try and eat it. I came back down and sat on the stairs to make sure he didn’t choke and I had made a big mistake.

 

It was great. He ate slower, so he wasn’t always gulping and almost throwing up and then gulping food again. He spent about 5 minutes working his meal and then did his “jiggle jiggle jiggle” move before running to me to say thank you.

 

422520_2903639544159_1055606049_32770478_1529864430_n.jpg

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