Opinions On Shaking?

[Guest DiforDan]

My 8 year old male grey, Slinky, is quite a nervous boy and has come a long way in the 4 years he has been with us. When we got him he had obviously been abused and neglected, and he was terrified of sticks. He is no longer frightened of sticks but he is still very noise phobic about bangs. He is on Prozac for this and it makes him recover from a fright much more quickly.

 

However, he still shakes a lot when he goes out. We take the two dogs out in the car, and when we ask him to get out for his walk he always shakes quite alarmingly, although he is not unwilling to come along. As his walk progresses, in the quieter parts, and when he is on the home strait, the shaking stops. It's worse when we stand around, better when he gets on the move. People always assume he's cold which can't be the case as he has a warm coat and he still shakes on a hot summer day. Panting is associated with the shaking too.

 

So, my thoughts on this are:

Is it simply that he is still anxious on the outward part of the "walkies" journey? Or could this be a learned response by now, just shaking because that's what he's always done in that situation?

Could he actually be excited rather than scared in this situation?

Some dogs, greyhounds and whippets and some little dogs, seem to shake like this a lot. Are they just "highly strung" or could there be something else going on, a sort of "syndrome"?

 

I suppose I am just trying to reassure myself that our precious little man is not actually terrified every day when he has to go for his walks.

 

Indoors he is the most chilled out roacher of a greyhound you could have. Unless there is a bang.

[philospher77]

I hate to say it, but I would lean towards "terrified". My Katie is the same way. When she is stressed, she trembles so bad that you can see it across the room and hear her nails rattling across the floor. You say that you have him on Prozac. Does this mean that you are working with a behaviorist or other professional? If so, can you get some video of the situation so that they can take a look and give advice? The bad thing is that it may be a partly learned response by now (I go on walks, where there are scary noises, so I am going to be scared whenever I go on a walk, since there will be scary noises...) and it may take a lot of work to counteract it at this time.

 

One of the things you have to ask yourself is "is he really willing to come along" or is it that he is more terrified of being left behind? If he is getting a lot of his comfort and support from the other dog, it is possible that the thought of being left alone in the scary world is worse for him than being on a scary trail. Just some things to think about.

[rascalsmom]

Jack did a lot of shaking and panting when he was having tummy pain. Could your dog possibly have pain somewhere?

[tbhounds]

My girl does the same- shaking whenever adrenalin is involved. She's a very shy dog but, a calm, relaxed dog at home. Lately she has appeared more anxious outside of her comfort zone. She'll shake whether she's happy, scared, nervous or excited. I had her evaluated by a neurologist- she was diagnosed with essential nerve tremors-- basically a benign condition- treatment=Xanax as needed.

[DunesMom]

I'd agree with Philosopher -- fear. But the learned-response could be possible, also.

 

Kipper shakes when he's nervous or afraid, and pants. He's 100 times better than when we first got him, thanks to desensitization training, but he vibrates like a personal massager during thunderstorms.

 

Driving through last summer's brutal rainstorms created a new fear of driving in rain (snow triggers it, too, as do twisty mountain roads).

 

But since he loves car trips overall and adores travel to new places and hotel rooms , we've been using desensitization training rather than stop taking him (car washes and hoses to simulate rain). When we first got him, this training worked on walks, dog parks, vet's offices, strangers, men in hats, babies, and most kids over the screeching-toddler stage.

 

Sounds like fear to me. Have you read Patricia McConnell's The Cautious Canine?

 

If not, pick up a copy -- it's a cheap booklet -- and try it. The key is to figure out the trigger, and start the positive treating just before the threshold triggers the shaking.

[GeorgeofNE]

Please don't assume your dog was "abused and neglected" because he's the nervous type. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that are just born that way.

 

My last dog was terrified of the ironing board, the ROTC, and Hassidic Jews. Now, I know for a fact none of these things/people ever hurt him or so much as raised a voice at him. He was, however, thrown from the window of a moving car--and yet he loved riding in the car.

 

My point is that assuming past issues based on present behavior when you have a "second hand dog" can lead you to conclusions that have no basis in fact. Clearly you love your boy and want to help him, and that's terrific. Sounds like he's come a long way.

 

As to the shaking--it's really hard to tell, but based on your post, I'd say he's really uptight. My last dog used to fly with me on 12 seater planes back and forth to Nantucket. He shook like a leaf. I assume he was afraid. It was the fastest way to get there though, and he gamely accompanied me for many years. As soon as the ride was over, he was just fine.

 

When he was EXCITED (as in 'let's go for a ride!") he whined and whined and whined and whined. That's how I determined excitment vs. fear.

 

Panting is also a sign of stress.

[Guest sues2longtails]

I have a 9 year old greyhound and have had her for 4 years. She doesn't normally shake unless there are very loud bangs. We have an army training area locally and he is terrified of the practice mortar sounds, but OK with rifle firing. This firing range is not often used, but there was a lot of practice there a couple of months ago (about twice a week for a couple of weeks) and we were on our morning walk in a lovely arboretum when there was a mortar bang. Now Seanna doesn't want to come in the morning and when we get there she is shaking in the car. Once we are out she is OK and loves her walk. In the afternoon we go elsewhere and she doesn't shake at all. With her this is definitely a fear shaking, but if I ignore it and walk her she enjoys herself. This sounds very similar to your grey, so I would think his is connected to something that has happened in the past when he has gone for a walk. You say he is OK once you start walking, just like my Seanna.

 

Sue

[Guest DiforDan]

I hate to say it, but I would lean towards "terrified". My Katie is the same way. When she is stressed, she trembles so bad that you can see it across the room and hear her nails rattling across the floor. You say that you have him on Prozac. Does this mean that you are working with a behaviorist or other professional? If so, can you get some video of the situation so that they can take a look and give advice? The bad thing is that it may be a partly learned response by now (I go on walks, where there are scary noises, so I am going to be scared whenever I go on a walk, since there will be scary noises...) and it may take a lot of work to counteract it at this time.

 

One of the things you have to ask yourself is "is he really willing to come along" or is it that he is more terrified of being left behind? If he is getting a lot of his comfort and support from the other dog, it is possible that the thought of being left alone in the scary world is worse for him than being on a scary trail. Just some things to think about.

 

Yes we did get the input of a behaviourist and she thought the medication would help (which it has, by making him get on with his day after a bang, rather than folding up and giving up on life). She also warned that he may not stop the shaking and panting. She didn't think he was too bad, as he does respond if you "jolly him along" and give plenty of treats.

 

I do think it is a learned response. He very rarely encounters anything on his walks any more which is actually upsetting to him, but he anticipates I'm sure.

 

Jack did a lot of shaking and panting when he was having tummy pain. Could your dog possibly have pain somewhere?

Thanks for the input, but I don't think so, because if so, how would the pain miraculously abate as soon as he was on his way home? And start as soon as he had to get out of the car (when not at home)?

 

My girl does the same- shaking whenever adrenalin is involved. She's a very shy dog but, a calm, relaxed dog at home. Lately she has appeared more anxious outside of her comfort zone. She'll shake whether she's happy, scared, nervous or excited. I had her evaluated by a neurologist- she was diagnosed with essential nerve tremors-- basically a benign condition- treatment=Xanax as needed.

 

This is interesting and more what I was getting at (or hoping for, you might say!) So these essential nerve tremors are an intermittent thing brought on by excitement or stress, mild or severe? That's what I am thinking may be it with Slinky.

[Guest DiforDan]

Please don't assume your dog was "abused and neglected" because he's the nervous type. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that are just born that way.

 

Panting is also a sign of stress.

 

I am not assuming anything about Slinky, although you are right generally in what you say. He was one of the most underweight, terrified, scarred greys my local rescue had ever had. We have had to work through loads of fear issues with him. One was that he was petrified of sticks, and covered in scars on his back, and the vet says he shows signs of having had a blow to the head which has lost him the sight in one eye. I think that tells enough of a story. I can now twirl a stick by his nose and he totally ignores it. He knows his days of abuse are over.

 

But your generalisations are nevertheless correct. We don't know his entire history and maybe it's better we don't. And he is the nervous type, I'm sure. Many dogs are scared of fireworks, even those who have had a charmed life. He is fine with thunder by the way, and really most noises as long as he can see where they are coming from and they are not too surprising.

 

Have tried all sorts of desensitization and positive reinforcement, but the shaking doesn't stop until he is comfortable enough to make it stop.

[greysmom]

I know you're looking for options, and grasping at the thought of a medical issue, but I agree with Phil77 that the shaking is fear/behavior. My spook does the same thing. At home and in the yard she's fine (unless it's windy). But as soon as we get in the car to go anywhere the shaking starts. She shakes so bad that I'm afraid she'll fall down. Her teeth chatter; her nails click on the floor. But also, she's the one who walks the best on leash of my five, even in the midst of a freak out session.

 

Is it your behaviorist who has prescribed the Prozac or a vet??? The dosage may need to be adjusted up a bit to help a little more. It can take quite a bit of fiddling to get it right. Or another drug may actually help him more. Prozac actually didn't help my girl at all, but within three days on Paxil she was already 100% better, and we've continued to see improvement in her fearful/anxious behavior.

 

This isn't to say he shouldn't continue to be taken on walks. It can take months and months for spooks to get the message that things are OK. The Rx's help put his mind and keep his mind in a state to accept desensitization training. They aren't a "fix" for the problem in and of themselves. So controlled exposure to his triggers will continue to help him.

 

Good luck.

[Guest DiforDan]

I know you're looking for options, and grasping at the thought of a medical issue, but I agree with Phil77 that the shaking is fear/behavior.

 

Is it your behaviorist who has prescribed the Prozac or a vet???

 

This isn't to say he shouldn't continue to be taken on walks. It can take months and months for spooks to get the message that things are OK.

Good luck.

 

Thanks Greysmom. I think you are right, I am clutching at straws, I hate to feel we are "putting him through it" every day just making him walk around and meet people etc. We have sometimes thought of leaving him home but I really think that both dogs would miss each other. Pingu, our other one, is blind with PRA and although he used to be a rock, he is less certain of himself now and walks alongside Slinky a lot, sort of in his slipstream. And of course if left home Slinky would never get any exercise as he rarely does zoomies or anything much.

 

To be honest with you it was me who pushed to put him on Prozac, after years of success on it myself for my own anxieties. Our vets here in the UK are not as experienced with these type of drugs as they are in the States. All they were coming up with was the idea of giving him Diazepam (tranqs) just before his walk, but he is so sleepy and laid back most of the time, we felt that him being tranqued out was not an answer. The vet has just gone along with it and observed with interest. He is improved though, when he is on his walks, if a bike backfires or something to upset him, he barely flinches now. And if he does, he is over it within a minute. This is a major result. This has been going on for years rather than months with Slinky, and all that is left of his uber-spookiness is this shaking thing.

 

Thanks so much for your concern and helpful suggestions.

[greysmom]

How long has he been on Prozac and at what dosage? If he has been making improvement(s) steadily and only this one issue is left, you have a couple ways to interprete his behavior.

 

1 - It's a leftover learned behavior as Phil77 said and in time it should disappear on it's own as his other fear behaviors have disappeared. If the shaking is for a limited time, and then goes away, I would continue a desensitization program and give him some more time. Realize that this behavior might never go away, and you will just need to give him emotional/ mental support in these times.

 

2 - OR - As I said above, it's a fear behavior that would benefit from some additional medication support (along with a desensitization program). Either consider upping his prozac dosage a little to see if that helps (results could take several weeks to appear); or , if this is an only isolated response to riding in the car, he might benefit from adding a fast acting anti-anxiety med like xanax. Xanax is often used for thunder /loud noise phobia here in the states as it is fast acting (within 30 minutes), and metabolizes quickly (within 6-8 hours).

 

You might also try putting a DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) diffuser in the car, or a DAP collar on him for rides. It doesn't help every dog, but it might help break the cycle he's on.

[Guest madredhare]

Sounds like my Tom. He is nervous Nellie. I've had him for over 8 years now. Get his leash out, he is ready to go. Shaking all the way! Shakes in the car, shakes when we get there. At the vet's office, his nails tap on the floor. Dear God, don't let a gun go off, fireworks or thunder. He has gotten so much better, but at his age of 12, I think it's as good as it gets.

[Guest sirsmom]

It sounds like fear with phobias. Our girl does this if she gets spooked by a noise or some perceived threat. But, she only does this occasionally

[Guest DiforDan]

Sounds like my Tom. He is nervous Nellie. I've had him for over 8 years now. Get his leash out, he is ready to go. Shaking all the way! Shakes in the car, shakes when we get there. At the vet's office, his nails tap on the floor. Dear God, don't let a gun go off, fireworks or thunder. He has gotten so much better, but at his age of 12, I think it's as good as it gets.

 

Aww, poor old Tom! I know, sometimes I feel that Slinky is as good as he is going to get, but it still distresses me to see the shaking.

 

How long has he been on Prozac and at what dosage?

Over a year and on standard 20mg pill (Same as I have been on for years. How much more could it be increased?

 

Realize that this behavior might never go away, and you will just need to give him emotional/ mental support in these times.

I think this is how it will turn out.

 

I am nervous to up his Prozac, especially with our vets being so clueless. I am trying to wean myself off it actually. Perhaps another med might help, but don't want him drowsy the rest of the time as he is so reluctant to get off his bed (except to get me up in the middle of the night!)

 

DAP collar/diffuser, have found useful for acute times like bonfire night, but don't think it stopped his shaking on emerging from car for walk.

 

Thanks again!

[Guest HoundyGirl]

As others have said, it sounds like fear, but I wanted to share a different explanation. I had a grey a few years ago who shook any time he was standing still. He shook a lot in the car while standing and anytime on a walk where we stopped to talk to someone. I never found out exactly why he shook like that, but he did have a fairly bad case of chronic Ehrlichia and I always wondered if that had anything to do with it. He had other symptoms, too, such as arthritis-like pain that got fairly bad sporadically. He was not a nervous dog, however.

[JJNg]

How long has he been on Prozac and at what dosage?

Over a year and on standard 20mg pill (Same as I have been on for years. How much more could it be increased?

Unless your boy is a very small greyhound, 20 mg is a fairly low dose of Prozac. Standard dose range is 1-2 mg/kg once daily. How long has Slinky been on Prozac? Is your vet doing regular bloodwork to monitor for potential side effects? I usually recommend bloodwork every 6 months for dogs that stay on Prozac long term.

 

Perhaps another med might help, but don't want him drowsy the rest of the time as he is so reluctant to get off his bed (except to get me up in the middle of the night!)

Medications like diazepam (Valium) and alprazolam (Xanax) are stronger, short-acting anti-anxiety drugs that work better for situational fears. Especially at the lower doses, they decrease anxiety without necessarily causing drowsiness. I mostly use it for intermittent situations, like storms and fireworks. These meds are not as ideal for daily situations like walks because many individuals start to become resistant to the effect over time. However, it might be worth trying it for a few weeks to try to break the cycle and then wean off of it and see how he does.

[Guest ScottH]

When on walks with the local greyhound groups, Argos tends to shake like a leaf at the start and on any rest stops. He will lean into people for pats and wag his tail, but still shaking. I also get told he is cold, but this happens in July. We have decided that it is his way of shedding nervous energy. He doesn't understand the stopping on walks. He just wants to get to the front and walk, preferably RIGHT NOW!.

[philospher77]

Just a comment about the Xanax. You are a lot more likely to see "puppy playful" rather than lethargic/tranked behavior on it, at least in my experience. Katie can get incredibly hyper about two hours after taking it, and it can actually take some work to get her to calm back down. So I wouldn't be worried about drowsiness!

[Guest DiforDan]

Just a comment about the Xanax. You are a lot more likely to see "puppy playful" rather than lethargic/tranked behavior on it, at least in my experience. Katie can get incredibly hyper about two hours after taking it, and it can actually take some work to get her to calm back down. So I wouldn't be worried about drowsiness!

 

Thanks everyone, that is reassuring. I am going to take him to the vet and discuss these different options again. My fear is that if I take him off the Prozac to try different options it might set him back. There was a really loud bang yesterday on our walk and he took it in his stride, hardly missed a beat. I wouldn't want to change that in order to try to sort out the shaking that might not be solved by anything anyway.

 

Does anyone know if it is ok to have a dog on the prozac and try the Xanax/Daizepam option at the same time? I know my vet was nervous about doing that due to possible drug interactions.

[Guest DiforDan]

Unless your boy is a very small greyhound, 20 mg is a fairly low dose of Prozac. Standard dose range is 1-2 mg/kg once daily. How long has Slinky been on Prozac? Is your vet doing regular bloodwork to monitor for potential side effects? I usually recommend bloodwork every 6 months for dogs that stay on Prozac long term.

 

 

He has been on 20mg Prozac for about 15 months. Vet did a check-up at 12 months and just took our word for it that he was OK. What blood work would you recommend, and what side-effect risks are there which would show up on a blood test? If he was not tolerating the drug, wouldn't there be symptoms we could see? He weighs about 34 kilos. Thanks.

[greysmom]

You need to keep an eye on kidney and liver values to make sure there's no adverse effects. Any side effects would be apparent by now, if there were going to be any, similar to what you might expect in a human. I haven't experienced any dopiness or drowsiness in giving any anti-anxiety med.

 

Do NOT just stop giving him this medication. It needs to be weaned off slowly. But no one is suggesting that above. Rather, we are suggesting that his dosage is too low by about half. 20mgs would be a dose for about a 10-15 kg dog (if I have my maths right! ). So you should be able to nearly double his dose. At the least, he should be getting 1 mg per kg of body weight. Upping his prozac dosage to it's theraputic amount may take care of his residual shaking problem on it's own.

 

Prozac and xanax are two different classes of anti-anxiety meds. They work differently on different parts of the brain. Many GTers use them in conjunction - prozac for long-term control and xanax for acute flare-ups (like holiday fireworks and thunderstorms). In your situation, I wouldn't anticipate using the xanax on a continuing basis. Once he has his situational anxiety (the shaking on walks) under control through additional meds and behavioral conditioning, you should be able to wean him off the xanax.

 

After that, you should also try to wean him off the prozac and see what happens. If his anxiety returns, you can always put him back on his meds, but he may not need them.

[Guest Brindle2Black]

My Mabel shook (trembled) a lot too. Sometimes because of cold (even with a coat on). Sometimes just from fatigue when on walks when she was older. Some just shake! Have the vet check him out thoroughly. If nothing is found, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Guest DiforDan]

My Mabel shook (trembled) a lot too. Sometimes because of cold (even with a coat on). Sometimes just from fatigue when on walks when she was older. Some just shake! Have the vet check him out thoroughly. If nothing is found, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

Thanks for your input, but this is my point: Is it a case of "some just shake" or is it as others have suggested that my poor boy is actually terrified every day of his life when he is taken for a walk? I believe there is usually a reason for everything deep down, and the fact that the shaking is at such a specific time (on the outward bound part of any walk) suggests to me that he is indeed anticipating trouble.

 

I have doubled his dose of Prozac for 3 days and so far the shaking is worse. I know it's early days but I hope it is not having the opposite effect than we would hope. I find it very hard to believe that changes in his meds would take 4-6 weeks to take effect. My understanding is that Prozac leaves the system quite quickly if discontinued. Does that not mean that it takes effect quickly too? Most drugs "take" more quickly than claimed on myself, but of course in humans the placebo effect can be more powerful than we would imagine.

[Batmom]

If the shaking is *worse*, I'd certainly stop the increased dose and probably wean him off the drug altogether. Prozac can cause weakness, dizziness, etc. -- it may be contributing to your dog's problems rather than solving them.