Has Anyone Ever Managed Serious Aggression?

[Guest firegypsy]

Many of you may have read my post a week or so ago. I surrendered a dog to my local chapter because she is extremely aggressive. I did what I could to manage it, but she was snarking at kids, made contact with one of their faces (I believe it was unintentional) and was just very unpredictable. She was muzzled whenever she went out because she was so mean to my other grey-who came home the same day she did. Last week was the last straw when she severely injured my male, who easily had 30 pounds on her. Again I DON'T believe she meant to hurt him, but she did. Badly.

 

I spoke to a few behaviorists and they across the board said she had to go, that they didn't even want to evaluate because they couldn't recommend that a dog that was that volatile and had known aggression issues stay in a house with young kids. My wonderful friend at the who runs the kennel suggested I bring her back before my guy got out of surgery and came home. So having everyone's advice be consistent I returned her.

 

I'm dying here. It's been a week and I've not been able to sleep well because I miss her so much. I just want her back. I can't deal with the guilt and the sadness. This was her second bounce and she's SUCH A GOOD DOG when she's not being a jerk. I truly love her and never felt afraid around her. She's just too aggressive and plays completely inappropriately.

 

I feel like there has got to be a way. This isn't a MEAN dog. This is a dog that is nutso. She hates other dogs and goes crazy when she sees one, she beats the hell out of my boy and even muzzled she's a nuisance. But what's killing me is that I never got professional help. It's like she made one mistake and because of the picture (kids in the house) everyone got really nervous. I get that. But if I hadn't used the language I did, "what do you think of this situation? can you help? and instead was more "I need you to help fix this" would I have gotten a different response?

 

I contacted the behaviorist I really respected and am waiting for him to call me. I'm willing to pay to have him work with her, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I do need to hear from other people so I can hold on to hope here. Has anyone else had a really aggressive grey paired with a really REALLY submissive grey and turned it around? Can it be done? I'm sick to my stomach and need to figure this out. I don't want to make my guy live in misery either and can't bring her back if the behavior doesn't change. Are there really greys that can't be in certain situations? Does this sound like a losing battle? I need a reality check from a group of people that get it.

[TheFullHouse]

Yes, but I had no small children and it took almost two years.

[gazehund]

There are people who have managed aggressive hounds before successfully.

I will be the bad guy and say I would never have a dog like that in my house. There are simply too many nice hounds out there for me to wear myself ragged trying to manage one with serious behavioral problems. I am out of the house too many hours a day to deal with a dog like that and I would never, ever subject my other hounds to a dog such as you describe. I do get that you love this dog and I am sure you have been agonizing over returning her. Only you can decide if you want to try to work with her. I would not.

Best wishes in whatever you decide to do.

[vjgrey]

Yes, but in our case, I think the "aggression" is medical, not behavioral. And we don't have kids.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I remember your prior post. Please do not think I am being mean, but know I am being totally honest, which some folks think is a fault I have, but I hate to see dogs set up for failure.

 

First and foremost, I cannot fathom a dog that has a child nip being put in a home with young children (read younger than teenagers).

 

Secondly, you said the injury was done to your male by your female's nails. That can happen in play, and yes, I have some that play rougher than others (read a 2-1/2 year old puppy). I have my dogs nails trimmed every other week, and I feel like a slacker. You said they were trimmed 2 times in 8 months,I am having a hard time wrapping my head around nails doing the damage the picture showed.

 

If you truly love her and care about her, put her needs first,it sounds to me (and I am not a behaviorist or trainer) like she needs a quieter, a bit more grey savvy home to thrive as a pet.

 

I also cannot fathom an adoption group placing a dog back in a home where the dog was returned for behavior issues.

 

I have had aggressive dogs, if you consider a dog that some of the kennel volunteers would not touch out of fear, a dog that also caused a woman to have three facial plastic surgeries. He was sleep and fear aggressive, and got kennel aggression after being in the adoption kennel for 2 years after his bite incident. I was able to give him the time and patience he needed to trust, to isolate him at feeding and treat time, to muzzle and isolate when I went to work. I would never have him around young (under teenage years) kids, as I would not trust him in that situation. When I lost him at almost 11 to osteo, the one gift we gave each other was trust,that trust was earned.

 

Let her find the home she needs where she is not as stressed, and she can thrive. That is my personal take on the situation.

 

Sometimes we have to put our personal feelings aside and do what is best for the hounds. I cannot imagine keeping up with young kids and an aggressive hound, but I can imagine dealing with an aggressive hound in a home where there are no children, and experienced greyhound owners.

 

Again, I am not trying to be hurtful, but I am being totally honest, having read your prior posts on the situation.

 

Oh and here is the obligatory

[Guest firegypsy]

I'm a little surprised at this reply. what would "more grey savvy" look like to you? What should have been done differently? I'll admit inexperience to aggressive greys, never crossed paths with one before. I know that people were upset that she was placed into my home, but I don't think anyone realized the extent of her issues. Maybe that's not an excuse but had anyone seen this coming it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.

Edited February 14, 2012 by firegypsy

[JAJ2010]

Not every home is right for every hound. You need to think of your existing pack (family) first. Try to beat yourself up and move on. There was a rescue organization to take the dog. It's not like you dumped her at a high kill shelter. (((hugs)))

 

I'm not sure I would take on a dog like that and I don't have small children. It just wouldn't be fair to my existing animals.

[Anne]

If you really want to help this dog, why not call the person/group who now has her and offer to pay for the behaviorist to evaluate her and work with her so she can find her perfect home?

I know it hurts, but I don't think your home with kids and lots of activity is the perfect home. She might do very well as an only dog with a couple of adults, let the behaviorist work with her and he can make his recommendations.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I'm a little surprised at this reply. what would "more grey savvy" look like to you? What should have been done differently? I'll admit inexperience to aggressive greys, never crossed paths with one before. I know that people were upset that she was placed into my home, but I don't think anyone realized the extent of her issues. Maybe that's not an excuse but had anyone seen this coming it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.

 

You asked, so I will answer. As I said before, first thing I would have done differently is not place the dog in a home with small chldren (under teenage years),no matter how much the person wanted that particular dog.

 

Secondly, I have never and would not have allowed ANY dog in my home to bully another dog at any time. I feel it is my job to keep all my dogs safe and secure and do whatever it takes to do that. TigerPower was babygated from the rest of the pack and muzzled (unless I was in attendance) for over 6 months, including going out to potty alone. When my dogs are in the yard, I am always there with them. He had to learn that he was safe too.

 

What I did with him is almost impossible to do with young children. I am not faulting you, I just feel that her issues are way more than you are equipped to handle. From what you said before, none of the behaviors just happened one day out of the blue, she bullied him from the get go. There are some of us here that have had a few greyhounds for a number of years that would not allow that behavior to happen, because once it does it usually escalates.

 

My suggestion is to move on, and let her move on. If you feel your male needs a companion, and you work with an adoption kennel and they are willing to re-adopt to you, I would suggest if they have a kennel taking your male to look at dogs, and do nothing more than watch him and see who he picks, he will pick one if he wants to.

 

Good luck with it all.

[Guest firegypsy]

If you really want to help this dog, why not call the person/group who now has her and offer to pay for the behaviorist to evaluate her and work with her so she can find her perfect home?

I know it hurts, but I don't think your home with kids and lots of activity is the perfect home. She might do very well as an only dog with a couple of adults, let the behaviorist work with her and he can make his recommendations.

 

 

that's what I've already set up. I just am having trouble with the outcome not being having her back.

[Guest firegypsy]

I'm a little surprised at this reply. what would "more grey savvy" look like to you? What should have been done differently? I'll admit inexperience to aggressive greys, never crossed paths with one before. I know that people were upset that she was placed into my home, but I don't think anyone realized the extent of her issues. Maybe that's not an excuse but had anyone seen this coming it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.

 

You asked, so I will answer. As I said before, first thing I would have done differently is not place the dog in a home with small chldren (under teenage years),no matter how much the person wanted that particular dog.

I understand, you did say that before. She was places with me because there were questions and it was felt, by both of us (organization and myself) that this would be a very different situation. Clearly we were wrong. But just to clarify, I didn't want that dog, that dog needed a home and I was looking to adopt. I never said, "hey, I NEED THAT DOG." She was available and was thought to be a decent fit.

 

Secondly, I have never and would not have allowed ANY dog in my home to bully another dog at any time. I feel it is my job to keep all my dogs safe and secure and do whatever it takes to do that. TigerPower was babygated from the rest of the pack and muzzled (unless I was in attendance) for over 6 months, including going out to potty alone. When my dogs are in the yard, I am always there with them. He had to learn that he was safe too.

I believe this as well. I don't think I ever said I allowed it. This was her tendency and what she always attempted to do. She had swift consequences to her actions, but the point was I always had to be there, ready to dole them out. She was leashed, muzzled, gated (and chewed the trim in more than one room) and when she was being horrendous she wasn't let out with him.

 

 

What I did with him is almost impossible to do with young children. I am not faulting you, I just feel that her issues are way more than you are equipped to handle. From what you said before, none of the behaviors just happened one day out of the blue, she bullied him from the get go. There are some of us here that have had a few greyhounds for a number of years that would not allow that behavior to happen, because once it does it usually escalates.

I understand you're not faulting me, but I feel the need to clarify here. Yes, her issues were more than I could handle, else I'd still have her. However I'm not a newb. I guess I've been lucky that I've never had a grey like this, but I've had greyhounds, usually 3 at a time for over 25 years. I'm reasonably seasoned and did what I knew to do in this situation. This is the first time I've had them with young kids, but I'm familiar with the breed and we fostered above and beyond our pack from the mid eighties on. I've never seen a greyhound behave the way this one did.

 

My suggestion is to move on, and let her move on. If you feel your male needs a companion, and you work with an adoption kennel and they are willing to re-adopt to you, I would suggest if they have a kennel taking your male to look at dogs, and do nothing more than watch him and see who he picks, he will pick one if he wants to.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

They are certainly willing to re-adopt to me. I've known them and worked with them for a quarter of a century and have never had an issue before this one. I'm not sure he needs or wants a companion, but I've never given up on a dog before. It's not me. I want her to be happy of course and if it can't be with me, well....I'm going to leave that to the professionals. The behaviorist I hope can give me a good answer for my situation. If he's really opposed then I do feel like I have to listen to that, but not until he works with her. I just really need some perspective and support because as I've said, I've never had a situation like this before. It's totally foreign and I guess I've been really blessed in the past. If we do get a new hound then I will take that advice and see what he thinks, and if he perks up at all around other dogs.

[Guest firegypsy]

and p.s. I really appreciate your posting style. I much prefer people lay it on the line.

[inugrey]

I'm a little surprised at this reply. what would "more grey savvy" look like to you? What should have been done differently? I'll admit inexperience to aggressive greys, never crossed paths with one before. I know that people were upset that she was placed into my home, but I don't think anyone realized the extent of her issues. Maybe that's not an excuse but had anyone seen this coming it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.

 

 

My suggestion is to move on, and let her move on. If you feel your male needs a companion, and you work with an adoption kennel and they are willing to re-adopt to you, I would suggest if they have a kennel taking your male to look at dogs, and do nothing more than watch him and see who he picks, he will pick one if he wants to.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

absolutely agree with this advice. This was not the right dog for your environment. You are still a fine greyhound owner but she was not the right dog. She needs a calm quiet place. I have worked with a behaviorist who did in fact say "the dog needs to be an only or you need to learn to manage all interactions." I chose to manage all interactions because I was able to do so. If I were in your situation with a busy home the dog would have been gone the minute the behaviorist gave me that bit of advice.

[Guest mariah]

Are there really greys that can't be in certain situations?

 

I think if you take pretty much any individual dog, there are living situations in which that dog could not thrive. Really. This dog needs something that you couldn't feasibly offer her at this point in your life, and that's ok. Maybe she needs to be an only dog. Maybe she can't live with kids. Sometimes it's just not the right fit.

 

We went through many of the same feelings that you describe after we had to surrender our last dog. He was a wonderful dog, but he did have serious aggression (unbeknown to us or our vets, he turned out to be suffering from a rare brain tumor of the frontal lobe). We had also considered ourselves to be people who would never "give up" on a dog. It never occurred to us that we would have to. We tried very hard to manage it under the supervision of several different behaviorists, but it continued to get worse rather than better. He ended up attacking my boyfriend one night, completely unprovoked (entered a room while BF had his back turned to him while on the computer) and ended up seriously injuring him. In spite of all this, returning him was absolutely the most difficult thing I think either of us has ever had to go through. Prior to his diagnosis, part of me wondered if there was something I could have done differently to make it work, or if I had tried hard enough. I had to frequently remind myself that I didn't chose to bring him back for my own convenience. I did it because it was the best thing for Lane and the best thing for the dog.

 

In returning this dog to the group, you have also put your own feelings aside and thought about what's best for the children, for your other grey, and for this particular dog, and that is commendable. I know the first few weeks are very difficult, but try to remind yourself of this when things get especially tough. You did the kindest, most selfless, most reasonable thing you could do in the situation.

Edited February 14, 2012 by mariah

[Gryffenne]

In returning this dog to the group, you have also put your own feelings aside and thought about what's best for the children, for your other grey, and for this particular dog, and that is commendable. I know the first few weeks are very difficult, but try to remind yourself of this when things get especially tough. You did the kindest, most selfless, most reasonable thing you could do in the situation.

^^^ This. This so much.

 

You didn't fail her, your boy, or your family. I know how that guilt feels. Trust me, I do.

 

What she needs is beyond what you could offer her in your home, because there are others depending on you for their safety as well. After a complete medical and behavioral evaluation, if nothing shows up wonky, I am guessing that the best home for her is with adults with no children or other pets that can handle a nutbar. (I have a feeling that after my son is grown, I am going to be one of those homes but right now, I have him to think of first)

 

It will get better.

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

I have a Greyhound in my home who has aggression issues, she is/was very food and treat aggressive, we have had her since she was a small pup she was raised in the same manner as all my other dogs over the years but she has her issues and boundaries. We have worked very hard to work with her to lessen her reactivity in specific situations. We still have to supervise very closely when she has raw hide but she is no longer guarding and lashing out like she used to. When she is eating we make sure we are in the kitchen and keep her dinner area free of other dogs, my husband and myself are now able to reach into her dish and touch her food with no lashing out (she isn't happy about it but allows it to happen). We are constantly working with her to make sure she doesn't regress and she has done very well with us, i cannot say she would do the same at another home.

We never had any issues with her and our daughter but our daughter is very dog savvy and understands there is some things she cannot so our that specific dog that should could normally do with the others.

 

There are some dogs who sometimes would just do better with a change in life to suit there needs, honestly if you felt that she would do better away from your male then go with your gut feeling i know it can be hard when you think back but not all dogs work well in every home.

[Batmom]

I've had and worked with dogs that were aggressive in some way. Not easy.

 

At this point, if I didn't have kids or fragile elders in the home and if my other dog(s) was a rock and able to take care of him/herself, I might consider it. That is not your situation.

 

[JenniferS]

My first greyhound was aggressive to other dogs and sometimes to people. I did my best with him over the years, but he was an only dog for most of his life. I have no children, I separated him from children if they were in the home, and separated him from other dogs in the home if unattended. I also couldn't take him to a lot of places, pet stores, parks, etc. if there were a lot of other dogs around. I wouldn't consider him to have had serious aggression, but definitely moderate aggression and there were some trying times in the 7 years I had him. That being said, he was the love of my life and I couldn't imagine him ever being with anyone else but me. It was just right for some reason, but my life was also the right situation for him.

Good luck with your decision, I now how hard it is.

[sdisto]

Sometimes it seems harder to let them go then to keep them, but I think you did the right thing. She deserves a home where she is not set up for failure - one without kids and maybe without other dogs. You have given her a great gift by putting her needs before yours. I know it's hard but I hope you can find peace with that one day.

 

Edited February 14, 2012 by sdisto

[Guest verthib]

All of the above....and your boy really deserves to have a companion who treats him well, plays with him nicely, etc.

 

And I write that wondering if I should have made a different choice. Angus is extremely play aggressive to our meek Gracie. He's bit her, he beats up on her, he's very rough. He is perfect in every other way though. No food aggression, sleep or space aggression, toy aggression etc. We had to work with him to get him to that place though. But we can't let him play with Gracie unsupervised and he always wears a muzzle outside. He can't even play nice with other dogs. We also have no kids so we decided to keep him. It's stressful at times but I cannot imagine my life without that boy, particularly when I have my head resting near him on his bed or I'm giving him bear hugs or when he walks over and kisses my face. Unfortunately if I had kids I may have made a different decision. You made what you thought was the best decision. And that's ok.

Edited February 14, 2012 by verthib

[greysmom]

GT-er "Giselle" is a certified trainer/behaviorist who has worked extensively with her own aggressive dog. You might try and search for her threads as they are extremely informative and interesting.

 

It is hard to let go of a dog no matter what the circumstances. Whether it's a return because of a behavior issue or euthanasia due to illness, it's never easy and you always feel as if you could have / should have / would have done something differently you could/should/would still have your dog with you. You are feeling guilty and grieving her loss, which is made harder because she is still alive and you know where she is and it seems like if you only do "THAT" she could come back home.

 

But she can't and she shouldn't. You have small children and a very submissive dog in your house. You cannot manage her every single interaction with everything and everyone she comes into contact with 24/7/365. She can't be crated or safely separated while you are gone. She has attacked your child. She has attacked your other dog. There is too much danger involved both for the people and animals you still have and for her.

 

You did many things right, including the last thing - returning her to the adoption group so she has a chance to have a full and happy life. Let yourself miss her while coming to terms with the understanding you - and she - are better off in the long term.

[Guest dee]

I really don't think you had a choice. You had to keep your kids and your other dog safe. I can certainly sympathize with your feelings because you love him. I think you did the best thing for your family and for the dog. In a quieter home with no kids or other animals he'll probably be able to blossom. I hope you find some peace as you read all of these responses. Good luck to you.

[Guest twogreytkids]

Every so often, a hound comes into our adoption kennel that is just not "other-dog" friendly, even towards other hounds.

 

When I adopted my second boy, he was one of those. I was the perfect home for him. No other animals. No kids. We shared a marvelous eight years together.

 

There are many homes out there, just like mine was, that are looking for only a single hound.

 

Marcy

[Guest KennelMom]

Yes. But, I wouldn't take one on now that we're having a kid. Wanting to keep a dog that's not a good fit is about human ego and usually has nothing to do with what's best for the dog or the family...a fresh start can do amazing things for a "troubled" dog. We've adopted dogs that were going to be put down because they were so aggressive/unpredictable to people and/or other dogs. We still have several of them (some have passed away) and they needed a bit of work, but mostly they needed a different environment. Like I said, our days of taking on the aggression cases are behind us for a long while but there are people out there who can and will handle these dogs. Sometimes the best gift you can give to a dog is to let them go to a better-suited environment where they can work through their issues and become a balanced dog.

Edited February 14, 2012 by KennelMom

[Guest firegypsy]

This thread is helping more than you all know. It's helping clarify a lot for me.

 

I think one of the hardest things for me is that the area in which she's aggressive is play. That a wee bit of space aggression-only when she's lying down. No food aggression, no toy aggression, no real anxiety to speak of, very snuggly with me etc. It's like when you lay it out like that she only has the one real "issue." I mean, it's frustrating that she gets nippy when she's lying down but I do think that is fairly manageable. It's just that you have to give her such wide berth.

 

The real issue is how she plays. She's crazy. And she gets super aggressive if she thinking that the other dog may get attention first. But that's only OUTSIDE. Inside she'll get in front of him, but there's no snarkiness about it. She's just pushy. Outside? Hooo, boy. She's bitey and jumpy and snarly towards the male.

 

So yeah...that IS the issue. Even though her issue is big, and I have no delusions about that fact, it's so contained into that one area. So it feels as though it should be fixable. Even though the fact that it was a play issue was what gave the behaviorist the most pause. His feeling was that since that was the area in which she struggled she'd always be triggered by kids playing. NO matter how well you trained her, that would always be something that would set her off.

 

And yes, I'm mourning this. I've mourned all the hounds I've lost, but I've never lost one that was still alive and well. It's heartbreaking. I keep imagining her lonely and sad and feeling unloved. I know I'm possibly anthropomorphizing this a bit, but it's hard not to. Yes, she's at the adoption kennel with 17 other greys at least. And more come in and out all the time. I know that they'll do right by her, but right now she's just in limbo. NO home to call her own. That hurts.

 

Thank you for all the kind words, those that have reassured me this was the right thing. I know somewhere in my heart that it was. I know my other dog needs to not be subjected to that. I know my kids shouldn't live afraid of their pet. I just feel like I failed and that's hard to shake.