Merlin's Continuing Health Issues

[Hubcitypam]

Rex had terrible colitis and a standing script for flagyl. His gurgly tummy would wake me at night.

 

Like Souls piece of bread if I could get him to eat anything it would calm down. However that anything might be a few bites of cheese one day, chicken the next, a scrambled egg another. I spent a lot of nights on the futon at 4 a.m. playing "what strikes your fancy tonight?"

 

However, once I primed his pump with just a litte bit of something yummy he'd go on to eat the canned and often on to kibble. I just had to get him started. Not sure what IBD dogs can eat, but for the last 13 years I've had to lock myself in the bedroom to eat a tuna sandwich in peace.

 

Rex was never diagnosed with IBD, just severe chronic colitis, so I know it is not the same, but the bloody runs and soft serve poo are.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this.

[HopeForHounds]

I missed this since I've been dealing with one crisis after another with Jake and Peanut.

 

Merlin honey you have to eat! I know just how your Mommy is feeling right now, and it's powerless and awful. I know you don't mean to make her sad, but try to eat something.

 

Kerry, when my daughter's dog was diagnosed with diabetes last winter she had no choice in the eating matter. In order to give insulin, she HAD to get her to eat. Faced with your frustrations, she went out and got a syringe then blended her food. She forced very small amounts down her throat. It takes ages, and dogs hate it, but......you have to do something when they are refusing to eat. I'm not sure if Merlin is at this point yet, but I would discuss it with your vet as an option.

[Guest jettcricket]

My heart goes out to you and your boy...it's so stressful and hard when our babies are not feeling well. Sending good thoughts to you and your sweet Merlin.

[EllenEveBaz]

[MerlinsMum]

I spent a lot of nights on the futon at 4 a.m. playing "what strikes your fancy tonight?"

 

That sounds soooooo familiar Been there!!

 

Kerry, when my daughter's dog was diagnosed with diabetes last winter she had no choice in the eating matter. In order to give insulin, she HAD to get her to eat. Faced with your frustrations, she went out and got a syringe then blended her food. She forced very small amounts down her throat. It takes ages, and dogs hate it, but......you have to do something when they are refusing to eat. I'm not sure if Merlin is at this point yet, but I would discuss it with your vet as an option.

 

Janet, you read my mind... that's basically what I started considering this morning as I sat on the floor with my head metaphorically in my hands, surrounded by three different kinds of food, pieces of kibble Merlin spat out all over the floor, and Merlin standing there with a gurgly stomach. Thanks. I think I will talk to my vet about this.

[LBass]

Kerry, I'm so sorry. I know how frightened and frustrated you must be feeling. I've no good advice but my thoughts are with you and your Wizard.

 

--Lucy

[4My2Greys]

Just a thought but maybe if the force feeding ID does not get him back on track and eating again you could post a list of the foods you've tried in the past that he had problems with. That way maybe others could make better suggestions knowing what he needs to avoid. I know you said that ID was the only thing that settled his symptoms so that is what you have stuck with. I can't help but think though of the saying that we always find something lost in the last place we look. Well that's because we no longer are looking. This may hold true for something lost, but maybe in Merlin's case the time has come that you need to start "looking" for something different. I know it's scary because there have been problems, but sometimes there is no choice but to start trying other things. The only suggestion I'll make on this is to try single ingredient foods that you prepare for him rather than kibbles with a variety of ingredients.

[FiveRoooooers]

Oh, Kerry, I thought the Wizard had been getting better ?? Did you try the Manuka honey? It might be enough to jump start his appetite and settle his gurgglies. One of mine turned his nose up at it, it can have a strong scent, but I was determined and got a teaspoon into him anyway. It was in fact the kick he needed and after a couple more doses (I forget right this moment how many) the gurgglies went away and his interest in food returned.

 

As to force feeding, I remember Lindsay having a really good method, maybe she will jump in here.

 

[PrairieProf]

No experience to serve as the basis for advice, but I'm so sorry you're going through this (and Merlin too, of course, but with the gentlest whack upside the head for his pickiness).

 

Egg is the #1 protein source in the canned I/D, so that might be something to try, and perhaps easier for you to cook than meat.

 

[tbhounds]

Regarding the Budesonide-- most internists are reaching for that over the pred-- Budesonide has little to no side effects. Have you considered seeking an internists evaluation??

My boy had severe IBD-- initially I almost lost him-- Budesonide was literally a life saving drug for him-- pred did absolutely zilch for him (among the other meds he was taking- flagyl, immuran...). He stayed stable for 3 yrs while on the Budesonide until the IBD morphed into cancer and I had to help him cross the bridge.

Budesonide is not inexpensive but, IMHO it was a small price to pay to see my boy well and enjoy life.

Edited January 29, 2012 by tbhounds

[sabrina]

Merlin please eat or I will tell Miss Kerry to give it to Sagan. So there, now starts the countdown

[4My2Greys]

Merlin please eat or I will tell Miss Kerry to give it to Sagan. So there, now starts the countdown

 

I don't know. He may be holding out in hopes she'll do that.

[seeh2o]

This may be a naive question, but can dogs with IBD tolerate a raw diet at all? I don't know much about IBD, mostly what I've read from you and Soulsmom, but I don't remember if that was an option.

[tbhounds]

True IBD is an immune mediated condition requiring immuno suppression drugs like pred, Budesonide, imurane.... Those dogs usually require a novel protein/carb source of food.

I think the confusion lies where folks use IBD and food intolerance in the same light. They are different and treatments will be completely different.

Some dogs with food intolerance or sensitivity will respond to raw because it's a extremely low residue diet (as many of the grain free kibbles).

Personally, I don't feel a true IBD hound should be fed raw as many are immune suppressed (medications) .

Edited January 29, 2012 by tbhounds

[greyhead]

This may be a naive question, but can dogs with IBD tolerate a raw diet at all? I don't know much about IBD, mostly what I've read from you and Soulsmom, but I don't remember if that was an option.

Spencer's diet is 25-33% raw daily. Aware that it's controversial, our vets (including the two internists he saw), said to go ahead and do it (including raw food) because it was working for him. Just observing the nature of his poops is how we arrived at that percentage for the raw food. It's what works for him. And, importantly, he was not doing well on just kibble/canned alone. And he has been on the immunosuppressant budesonide for three years. So I think it must be one of those things where you have to weigh all the factors for the individual dog.

Edited January 29, 2012 by greyhead

[MerlinsMum]

I am reading all your posts with great interest and I am grateful for the advice and your experience with your own dogs.

 

Something has to change. I think it may be time either for Prednisone or, indeed, for Budesonide. I'll be calling my vet tomorrow.

[greyhead]

Regarding the Budesonide-- most internists are reaching for that over the pred-- Budesonide has little to no side effects. Have you considered seeking an internists evaluation??

My boy had severe IBD-- initially I almost lost him-- Budesonide was literally a life saving drug for him-- pred did absolutely zilch for him (among the other meds he was taking- flagyl, immuran...). He stayed stable for 3 yrs while on the Budesonide until the IBD morphed into cancer and I had to help him cross the bridge.

Budesonide is not inexpensive but, IMHO it was a small price to pay to see my boy well and enjoy life.

Prednisone didn't help Spencer either, and it hurt him by causing very fast weight loss on top of the weight he'd already lost with SIBO. I can never thank you enough, Tracy, for encouraging us to consider budesonide. We had the further stroke of luck that our vet had her own IBD dog and had already become especially familiar with the problem. But she did even more research for Spencer, as I did mine here on GT and the rest of the Internet. So when she said she wanted to try budesonide, that was just what I'd already decided I hoped she'd say!

 

It is a shame, but humans tend to stick with what they already know, and vets/internists are humans. It feels safer for them to do what everybody usually does. But I don't think pred is always the best choice for greyhounds in this situation, and I wish somebody would generate some more budesonide research to give greater support to choosing that over prednisone for IBD.

 

Kerry, we found that when we needed to prime Spencer's appetite, as people are suggesting for Merlin, a third to a half bottle of vanilla Ensure does the trick. As it is, he now gets a half bottle twice a day just for the extra calories. The internist recommended it and it seems to be fine for IBD dogs in general. As others have said, if you can get him to eat a little of something, anything, Merlin may then go ahead and eat more of whatever he's supposed to have. You and Merlin are very much in our thoughts!

 

ETA: When you talk to the vet, you might request a bottle of B-12 and some syringes. I didn't mention this before, when we were discussing the neuro aspects, but B-12 can also rectify deficient appetite!

Edited January 29, 2012 by greyhead

[MerlinsMum]

Thank you so much, Mary

 

As for the Ensure, I guess I've just been worried (ok, I'll admit it - terrified) about giving him ANYTHING that isn't I/D and causing a flare-up. Of course right now his stools are just awful anyway.

 

I am ready to try something different. As I said, something has to change. We keep going backwards and forwards and I feel that we are not getting anywhere. If he didn't mind the I/D I would keep him on it for the rest of his life, but he HATES it now. I mean, he is well and truly DONE. I gave him some Purina EN at lunchtime to see if he'd eat (I feed him smaller quantities three times a day now, rather than twice a day) and he was very keen - gobbled it right up. Tried to give him some wet I/D and masked it (yeah right) with some EN - no go.

 

I will talk to my vet about budesonide again. I have heard so many awful things about side effects of Pred that I have never been keen to try it. I really, really don't want to go there unless I have to. Unfortunately right now it looks as though our options are becoming more and more limited.

[greyhead]

Thank you so much, Mary

 

As for the Ensure, I guess I've just been worried (ok, I'll admit it - terrified) about giving him ANYTHING that isn't I/D and causing a flare-up. Of course right now his stools are just awful anyway.

 

I am ready to try something different. As I said, something has to change. We keep going backwards and forwards and I feel that we are not getting anywhere. If he didn't mind the I/D I would keep him on it for the rest of his life, but he HATES it now. I mean, he is well and truly DONE. I gave him some Purina EN at lunchtime to see if he'd eat (I feed him smaller quantities three times a day now, rather than twice a day) and he was very keen - gobbled it right up. Tried to give him some wet I/D and masked it (yeah right) with some EN - no go.

 

I will talk to my vet about budesonide again. I have heard so many awful things about side effects of Pred that I have never been keen to try it. I really, really don't want to go there unless I have to. Unfortunately right now it looks as though our options are becoming more and more limited.

 

You're more than welcome, Kerry! (It's not like we don't know what you're going through!) I feel the need to mention, though, that while Ensure doesn't hurt an IBD dog per se, it can incline just about any dog toward loose stools until they get used to it. That's why we started with 1/3 bottle per day and worked our way up to 1/2 after a few days, and only after a few weeks did we feel safe enough to use it twice a day. So start slow. And if you find it working out well, cases of it at Costco are far, far less expensive than buying the four-packs from the grocery or drug stores!

 

ETA: Doing well on a food for a while and then reacting badly to it is the IBD pattern. That will probably only stop when he gets on an immunosuppressant. Then you should pick a novel protein (for us it was venison, but we can also use white fish), and he should be non-reactive to it from then on. Not that he won't have an occasional flare, because they all do. But you won't have the problem of becoming reactive to his food itself.

Edited January 30, 2012 by greyhead

[MerlinsMum]

I am getting a real education tonight. Very cool. LOTS to discuss with my vet. Thank you!!

[Trihounds]

Kerry - In reading the discussion on the immunosuppressant, I see a few drugs mentioned and thought I would add one to the list Bumper has been on for 3 years: Dexamethasone. It is an anti-inflammatory and acts as an immunosuppressant as well and has literally saved his life. Bumper doesn't have IBD, but as you may recall, a condition whereby his body attacks his spinal area by sending an inflammatory response (to nothing / for no reason) to it. The Dex has eliminated the problem and he is on a relatively low dose. I'm not sure if Dex is used to treat IBD as well.

 

Even as an immune suppressed houndie, Bumper has done perfectly on raw - in fact, we find it essential for his well being.

 

I'm hoping you get some clear advice tomorrow and more importantly, that your Wizard gets better.

[tbhounds]

I just one to make one point regarding raw and immunosuppressed hounds. I won't get into raw vs non-raw--that's a whole other debate but, an IBD dog has a very comprised GI-- complicate that with a suppressed immune system can possibly make your dog more prone to attacks from various bacterial diseases. Many, many diseases are. fought and won within the GI tract-- unfortunately a dog with IBD does not have that advantage like a dog with a healthy gut.

[Time4ANap]

Just catching up on GT and saw this thread. Sorry to hear that Merlin is continuing to have issues. Hope you can get him eating and that he's better soon.

[tbhounds]

Kerry - In reading the discussion on the immunosuppressant, I see a few drugs mentioned and thought I would add one to the list Bumper has been on for 3 years: Dexamethasone. It is an anti-inflammatory and acts as an immunosuppressant as well and has literally saved his life. Bumper doesn't have IBD, but as you may recall, a condition whereby his body attacks his spinal area by sending an inflammatory response (to nothing / for no reason) to it. The Dex has eliminated the problem and he is on a relatively low dose. I'm not sure if Dex is used to treat IBD as well.

 

Even as an immune suppressed houndie, Bumper has done perfectly on raw - in fact, we find it essential for his well being.

 

I'm hoping you get some clear advice tomorrow and more importantly, that your Wizard gets better.

Glad Bumper is doing well!! Just a quick point- not sure what dose of dex is currently given but, it sounds like he's on a maintance dose now- there's a difference between maintance dosing and a immunosuppressive dosage.

[Trihounds]

Kerry - In reading the discussion on the immunosuppressant, I see a few drugs mentioned and thought I would add one to the list Bumper has been on for 3 years: Dexamethasone. It is an anti-inflammatory and acts as an immunosuppressant as well and has literally saved his life. Bumper doesn't have IBD, but as you may recall, a condition whereby his body attacks his spinal area by sending an inflammatory response (to nothing / for no reason) to it. The Dex has eliminated the problem and he is on a relatively low dose. I'm not sure if Dex is used to treat IBD as well.

 

Even as an immune suppressed houndie, Bumper has done perfectly on raw - in fact, we find it essential for his well being.

 

I'm hoping you get some clear advice tomorrow and more importantly, that your Wizard gets better.

Glad Bumper is doing well!! Just a quick point- not sure what dose of dex is currently given but, it sounds like he's on a maintance dose now- there's a difference between maintance dosing and a immunosuppressive dosage.

 

Thank you!!! His health has aged him tremendously but he's a real trooper!

 

Yes, he is on a maintenance dose. 0.75 mg 2x a week. His initial dose was 1.5mg per day, but that was at the outset when he was having issues that needed to be quickly controlled. The neurologist tried Dex over Pred and Imuran (as a first shot) and we got lucky it worked for him. There is certainly a different dosage between managing a flare up and maintenance, though as I am not a vet, I can only comment on what worked in our situation.

 

I hope Mr Wizard man is doing ok today, Kerry. Interested to hear how the convo goes with your vet!