Osteo Thread

[BauersMom]

We stopped bringing the dogs to my parents' place - just too stressful. And now with a tripod, it would be impossible because they have all wood/tile flooring and no rugs... I would have to drag a bunch of scatter rugs, and he hates going anyway, so they all stay home!

 

Hugs to all the new folks

 

Jen - I can't believe it's been a year.

[krissn333]

Interesting...my house is mainly ceramic tile, no rugs, and Pinky does fine. But, we had that when she was a four-legger too, so maybe that's the difference

 

The weather is so nice, I want to give her a chance to run in the big yard now that she's all healed up and raring to go

[BauersMom]

Berkeley never had any issues with wood or tile as a four-legger. Now he does bambi splits on occasion on slick surfaces. Generally, it's because he's being a maniac (playing, running, etc) but today he did it just going out the door a little too fast.

[krissn333]

Aw, poor Berk

 

Curious to know if being a rear leg amp vs a front leg amp has anything to do with things like that, or if it just has more to do with the individual dog...

 

I will say that while I'm kind of sad that we have no snow for Christmas, I am glad as well that Pinky doesn't have to deal with it yet. I have a feeling she will tackle it head on, as she's always loved playing in the snow, but keeping the patio ice-free might be a tougher task.

[winnie]

Happy Holidays to all of you and your greyhounds. I really miss that Faye Oops isn't here to celebrate this Christmas with us. Hugs to all the other osteo dogs. Enjoy your time together.

[krissn333]

I'm missing one of my babies today...but I'm so thankful that Pinky is here

[greysmom]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone here. Hugs your dogs and enjoy the season! Make the most of every minute!

 

We miss our Dude so much today..........

[joejoesmom]

In my family, all of the furkids get their fur cousins gifts. My two dogs procrastinated on the wrapping task, so I had to help them. When I was writing out the tags "To Luna, From ....." I accidentally wrote Twister's name down. When I realized what I had done, I just started sobbing. I lost her on July 21st and it seems like yesterday, but also seems like I've been missing her for years. She was a "whipador", not a greyhound. She died from lymphoma and kidney failure, not osteo. But I spend so much of my time on this thread that I thought it appropriate to share my sadness here. I know that you all will understand.

 

Jane

 

edited to add, I have apparently become an Ohioan (after almost 40 years here) by saying "you all" instead of "all of you".

Edited December 26, 2011 by joejoesmom

[BauersMom]

In my family, all of the furkids get their fur cousins gifts. My two dogs procrastinated on the wrapping task, so I had to help them. When I was writing out the tags "To Luna, From ....." I accidentally wrote Twister's name down. When I realized what I had done, I just started sobbing. I lost her on July 21st and it seems like yesterday, but also seems like I've been missing her for years. She was a "whipador", not a greyhound. She died from lymphoma and kidney failure, not osteo. But I spend so much of my time on this thread that I thought it appropriate to share my sadness here. I know that you all will understand.

 

 

I'm sorry. It's so tough.

 

I had something similar happen this week too - I lost Ivy on October 1, and it still hurts when I get caught off guard about her not being here. We lost Princess in March, and I feel a little more at peace with her for some reason. I miss her a lot, too, but it's not as raw as it is with Ivy.

[krissn333]

Hugs to everyone missing special pups

[TwiggysMom]

Hugs to everyone missing special pups

 

 

From me too.

 

I've lost quite a few pets around holidays, and it seems to make it just that much more painful.

 

I'm so sorry for all of your losses, as well as the new diagnoses.

[vjgrey]

Does anyone know whether leg cramps are common in (non-amp) osteo pups? We took Gabe for a short walk (maybe 1/4 mile) on Christmas Eve. We were careful (we thought) not to overdo it, and he was happy as a clam at the time. Later that night, 4-5 hours after the walk, he suddenly yelped while laying down. He had his non-tumor front leg fully extended, and we could see the muscles in his shoulder rippling and tightening. We rubbed the area, and he calmed down and went back to sleep. He had similar, brief episodes yesterday and this morning.

 

He'll be in to see his oncologist on Thursday, so I'll ask about them then, but I wondered whether anyone here had seen something similar.

Edited December 26, 2011 by vjgrey

[BauersMom]

We had something similar happen with Princess - but she had degenerative nerve issues, and we attributed it to that (she didn't have osteo). As a one time thing, it might have been overexertion?

[TwiggysMom]

Does anyone know whether leg cramps are common in (non-amp) osteo pups? We took Gabe for a short walk (maybe 1/4 mile) on Christmas Eve. We were careful (we thought) not to overdo it, and he was happy as a clam at the time. Later that night, 4-5 hours after the walk, he suddenly yelped while laying down. He had his non-tumor front leg fully extended, and we could see the muscles in his shoulder rippling and tightening. We rubbed the area, and he calmed down and went back to sleep. He had similar, brief episodes yesterday and this morning.

 

He'll be in to see his oncologist on Thursday, so I'll ask about them then, but I wondered whether anyone here had seen something similar.

 

Well, I don't have personal experience with this, but from your description, it does sound like muscle cramps (especially since you could see his muscles contracting). I do know that before her amp, Twiggy did have some breakthrough pain a couple nights before her surgery, and yelped loudly while she was just laying on her bed, but what you describe sounds different, more like muscle cramp.

 

I hope he is feeling better with a little rest!

[krissn333]

Sutra had them from time to time. He took Robaxin to help with it, but I also massaged him a lot, and regular visits to the chiro helped too.

[NeylasMom]

Neyla didn't have muscle cramps like that, but we did seek out the help of a chiropractor as well. I think things just get out of whack because they're not fully weight bearing on the osteo leg. We only did it twice because it was something we tried later on, but I do think it helped.

[greysmom]

Dude got massages from a canine massage therapist eveyr 10 days or so. Once we started this therapy his cramping and GSOD-ing went down dramatically. And he felt so much better after every session!

[JJNg]

Does anyone know whether leg cramps are common in (non-amp) osteo pups?

Don't think it's specific to osteo pups. IME, it seems that greys in general are more likely to have muscle cramping than other breeds. The same thing has happened with my boy Wiki a couple times. Both times he was lying down and started yelping, and I could see and feel the muscles that were affected spasming - once was the back muscles along one side, and the other a muscle in the front of his thigh. I rubbed and massaged the areas, which seemed to help, although both times, he had a couple more episodes with the same muscle later the same night.

[duncan41]

First, please know that everyone on this thread is in my prayers. I won't be posting much only because I want to spend as much time with Anna as possible. I didn't do that when my best-first greyhound was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma - I spent so much time researching and worrying and trying this and that, I lost sight of what was important.

But, I do have a question regarding pain meds. Anna came home the day of her dx with the usual pain med combo and instructions to give her 75mg Rimadyl twice a day, 50mg Tramadol every 8 hours and 100mg Gabapentin once a day. After 48 hours, Anna did not seem to be getting any pain relief, and actually seemed more uncomfortable. I added another Gabapentin, but after 36 hours, no change. At that point I added another 100 mg Gabapentin and saw a huge improvement. She is now getting 50mg of Tramadol and 100mg Gabapentin at 6 am, 2 pm and 10 pm, and 75mg of Tramadol at 6:00 am and 5:00 pm - oh and a 10mg Pepcid 30 minutes before breakfast which is followed immediately with the first dose of meds.

 

I had to stop by my Vet's office today for something else, and mentioned that I may need another prescription for the Gabapentin and the message that came back through the receptionist (who had to catch her between patients) was "You can't do that.". If she was getting 150mg of Tramadol, 150 mg of Rimadyl and 100 mg of Gabapentin and that combo didn't seem to be helping, was I wrong in increasing the Gabapentin? Should the Tramadol have been increased instead? I'm not a big fan of Tramadol due to a bad experience with one of my other girls, but Anna seems to be tolerating it well. The strange thing is that the panting and general appearance of being uncomfortable went away with the addition of the 3rd dose of Gabapentin!

[krissn333]

Your gabapentin 3 times a day is pretty similar to what many people here do-if you read back through some of the posts you'll see the exact information.

 

Personally I'd have done exactly as you did. I am not a big fan of larger doses of tramadol either. Recent research has shown that greyhounds metabolize gabapentin much faster than "normal." Seems that most people do much more frequent doses.

 

That seems like a lot of Rimadyl in one day too...that's one drug that I wouldn't personally do a high dose with due to the side effects in the liver and kidneys. I would lower that one and supplement with the tramadol and gabapentin to achieve comfort.

 

Jen (Neylasmom) is a great source of information on dosages and timing of these meds...hopefully she'll chime in here.

[duncan41]

Kristin, as a matter of fact, my decision to up the Gabapentin rather than the Tramadol was due to the experiences of others in this thread. Anna is a big girl - 71.5 pounds and all muscle - who has only been sick once in the 3.5 years since she was bounced to us; a UTI 6 weeks ago.

 

Am also considering palliative radiation therapy. I would appreciate hearing about the experiences of others.

 

Jen, would appreciate your input.

[45MPHK9]

Close to the end, Bee Wiseman was up to 300mg of Gabapentin three times a day. When the limp reappeared at that dosage, we made the decision to let her go. Bee was also taking Tramadol. I can't remember how much, though.

 

We did not opt for radiation, Pamidronate, or any other therapy for Bee. We made that decision after having a long talk with our vet about what Bee would gain as a result of such treatments, especilally at that advanced point in her cancer.

 

I am so sorry that you are going though this with Anna. It really sucks.

[vjgrey]

 

 

Am also considering palliative radiation therapy. I would appreciate hearing about the experiences of others.

 

 

Pallative radiation has worked VERY well for Gabe so far. Twice, he's gone from relatively fine to completely lame within less than 24 hours, and both times, he was walking again immediately after treatment and walking without a limp the next day.

[JJNg]

was I wrong in increasing the Gabapentin? ... The strange thing is that the panting and general appearance of being uncomfortable went away with the addition of the 3rd dose of Gabapentin!

Gabapentin is still a fairly new drug to veterinary medicine, so your vet may not be very familiar with it yet. It has a very wide dose range and is also a pretty safe drug. Some vets prefer to start low and slowly increase the dose to reduce the amount of sedation it can cause. The dose range can be anywhere from 3-30 mg/kg every 8-24 hours, and sometimes even higher. One of the main veterinary drug texts lists a dose of 3 mg/kg once a day for pain, but most vets who've used it much feel this is too low. I find that using it in the range of 5-10 mg/kg every 8-12 hours is more typical.

 

The fact that gabapentin needs to be given every 8 hours when used for seizures indicates to me that most dogs metabolize it faster, and that it really needs to be given 3 times daily. Doesn't make sense to me why you would only give it once a day for pain when it obviously isn't a med that lasts 24 hrs.

 

So for a 71.5 lb grey, 100 mg is only 3 mg/kg, right at the low end of the dose range. When I used it for my 55 lb girl (for severe pain but not osteo related), I gave her 300 mg 3 times daily. She'd already been on Previcox and tramadol, but I saw a huge difference when I added the gabapentin.

[duncan41]

Jennifer, sedation has not been a problem so far, but she is still limping. From her x-rays, the dark area is still well within the bright outline of the bone, (layman's terms for I-was-told-that-it-is-the-early-stages) so I am still questioning the amount and effectiveness of real pain relief she is receiving. On the one hand, she has a significant limp (but only while she's in the house), but it's not interferring with her ability to relieve herself and if it were left up to her, she would tear around the yard with her usual abandon! She is still bowing and doing all the normal postures, but the limp is pronounced.

Is there another med or another strategy that should or can be explored?

 

Valerie, is palliative radiation being combined with any other modality besides pain meds for Gabe? Are the treatments "as needed" or at regular intervals? How long are the treatments?

 

Tricia, Bee Wiseman's memory will always bring a smile to my face but a tear in my heart. You're right, it sucks.