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Lucy has had a few seizures and she will be going on medicine to control them but, before I start the medicines I am going to have a MRI to ensure that there are no other issues like a tumor that could be causing the seizures. The neurologist has said that they also like to do a spinal tap at the same time as the MRI to rule out meningitis as a cause.

 

The MRI is not invasive except that she needs anesthesia so I'm OK with that but the spinal tap is pretty invasive and there are a few things that can go wrong. The neurologist would be the one doing the procedure and he has a good amount of experience. Has anyone had this procedure done on your pet and did you find it worthwhile/would you do it again?

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She is not on medicine yet - she just had her fourth seizure (grand mals) on Saturday but they have still been out further than a month (last one was about 5 weeks since the last) but, I know she is escalating and the neurologist concurs. The reason for the MRI is that I want to make sure that I have the proper baselines in place before she goes on the medicines and in the case of an MRI - to rule out a brain tumor. If there is a tumor, there may be a chance to remove it and I would like to have the option of having that information and then possibly pursuing surgery if that is a viable option. The spinal tap would rule out things like encephalitis, and possibly meningitis both of which would likely have a different treatment plan than just treating for seizures.

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I'm kind of a wait-and-see kinda gal. No experience here, but in my mind, there would have to be a darned good reason not to start with the easiest, least invasive treatment and go from there.

Linda, Mom to Fuzz, Barkley, and the felines Miss Kitty, Simon and Joseph.Waiting at The Bridge: Alex, Josh, Harley, Nikki, Beemer, Anna, Frank, Rachel, my heart & soul, Suze and the best boy ever, Dalton.<p>

:candle ....for all those hounds that are sick, hurt, lost or waiting for their forever homes. SENIORS ROCK :rivethead

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How old is Lucy? If she fits the typical presentation of idiopathic epilepsy, has normal bloodwork, and is healthy otherwise, many neurologists will just start on anti-seizure medication without needing to do an MRI and CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) tap first. Although not unheard of, brain tumors are pretty rare in younger dogs. But if you want to be absolutely certain that you rule out all the possibilities, it's not a bad idea to do the MRI and spinal tap. If you haven't already, I would also recommend doing a tick-borne disease panel, and possibly also testing for other infectious diseases.

 

While it's obviously a more invasive procedure with some associated risks, spinal taps are very routinely done by neurologists. When I was in vet school, almost all the dogs who were anesthetized for an MRI also had a CSF tap done (by the neurologist), and I don't remember any having problems. IMO, there's probably more risk to the anesthesia than the spinal tap. So if you're going to have her put under for the MRI, I'd go ahead and do the tap too.

Jennifer &

Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On),

Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice

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I am wondering what is making the vet think this might be meningitis. Does she have symptoms other than the seizures? Have you run a tick panel to check for tbd's & also a full thyroid panel? (am assuming so but mentioning those just in case.) Would these procedures be done at the same time or done separately thus required sedation twice? most importantly would these be diagnostic in a way that would change your dog's current treatment? mri is noninvasive but the anesthesia required is not. though not highly invasive the spinal tap is done in a highly sensitive area & there are a few possible, though not highly likely, adverse effects. plus it also involves sedation.

 

My Daniel D. had a spinal MRI not brain. He had spinal tap, both lumbar puncture & up at the base of his skull. These procedures were done almost a year apart by two different vets, both neuros. The biggest problem with both was the anesthesia/sedation needed. Neither found any abnormalities that helped identify a cause of his disease nor did they change his treatment. However, in his case I considered the MRI to be diagnostic because it helped rule out several likely & quite treatable conditions, two of which might involve otherwise surgery. The spinal tap was really just a fishing expedition for extreme long shots. (Like dragging the bottom of the loch to find Nessie in hopes of finding the cause of depleted fish stocks.)

 

For the spinal tap Daniel had two areas shaved, base of tail & back of his head. Dan's new bald patch on his head left him looking rather monkish. (the first dad saw Dan afterwards dad was literally roflhao.) Dan came out of the procedure pretty ok but he was sore for a week or so. it wasn't anything profound, just two sensitive areas. he walked differently & I think some pain was involved but remember that his disease effected his motor function & anesthesia made that worse so I cannot say how much of the change was from being sore & how much was residual effect of anesthesia. either way it did pass in a couple weeks.

 

With hindsight I now consider the spinal tap to have been a waste. Of course, if we had found something treatable my opinion would be quite different. I don't regret having done it but if I faced with the exact same situation with a second dog I would likely skip it. That situation though is quite different from your girl. Good luck with this decision. I hope you are able to find something to help your pup.

 

ETA: Just read Jing's response. I have to agree with her. If I were in your position & had decided to do MRI I would go ahead & have the tap done at the same time.

Edited by kudzu
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They did a spinal tap on Minny without incident to rule out disease/infection. In reality he had brain cancer so of course results were negative. These were the same lazy people who so griveously injured his hip becauise they were too lazy/stupid to move him properly since he was non-ambulatory --so it must not be too hard or too much of a risk to do because they somehow manged to do it without injuring him further. Be advised... If your hound is large or heavy it would behoove you to have it officially noted that his hips are uninjured when he is admitted as Minny is the 2nd large greyhound that tech negligence/laziness severely injured that I know of so it must not be an unusual occurrence. (For the record this was confirmed by my personal vet who was not associated with the e-vet establishment where it happpenned.)

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Thanks for the good information.

 

A few points to address some of the questions raised..

 

The neurologist does not think that we are dealing with a tumor because of Lucy's age - she just turned 5. As mentioned above, since Lucy is going under for the MRI, the spinal tap would be done at the same time so she doesn't have to be subjected to anesthesia twice. The spinal tap would be done to rule out "possible but, unlikely diseases" - so it is a fishing expedition. The big expense is MRI running at 2K+ while the spinal tap is only about $200, so I'm more concerned about making the right choice for the current time and for the future. As noted above, it seems to be the process now that if a dog goes under for an MRI they do a spinal tap at the same time.

 

Lucy already had bloodwork and a check for TBDs back in March of this year when she had the first seizure and the results were unremarkable. She didn't have a full thyroid panel done but the results on what was tested for was unremarkable and the neurologist concurred. We also tested for lead as I live in an older home and just had extensive remodeling/addition and the seizure could conceivable been caused by exposure to "lead dust".

 

Good point about making sure that her "hips" are noted as being fine before she undergoes any procedures.

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Some of this may be dependent on some facts not known to me. Forgive me, I don't know anything about meningitis in dogs. First, is meningitis in Lucy a danger to you or your other dogs (if you have others)? How would it be treated? Will she die If there is no treatment if it is meningitis?

 

If it is a tumor what can they do for her? Would you be willing to pursue those paths? If there is little they can do, or that you would be willing to have her undergo, then why bother with one or both tests?

 

Seizures have a root cause. A seizure is only a symptom of something else that is wrong. It is termed idiopathic when they do not know why the seizures are happening. What kind is she having? It could be a brain injury, a tumor, a poison, a medication. But it can also be something more simple and correctable (at least in humans)- something nutritional. I doubt that unless you're sanding lead paint and she's eating the flakes or breathing them that it would cause seizures by the small amount in the air.

 

Of course I am am looking at the situation having had a 13 year old grey that likely had some form of cancer and had kidney failure. We would not have put her through surgery or chemo with her issues so we did not bother to test because it really did not matter what was wrong. We were going to make her as comfortable as possible until the time came.

 

Good luck.

 

 

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Whenever i am presented with decisions like this I always ask myself whether it would change the treatment I would provide to the dog in conjunction with how likely the diagnosis will show the disease it is testing for as "positive".

Since you are going ahead with the MRI and aneasthesia anyway I would say the $200 for the tap is a drop in the bucket at that point and it is best to do all procedures under one dose of aneasthesia then multiple. Although there are always dire side effects, they do not occur in most cases if you follow the post-procedure directions (keeping her quiet, no jumping ect.).

Good luck to you both!

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Saint fell right into the 3 - 6 year range for idiopathic epilepsy so we chose to go the medication route rather than spend the 2 grand for an MRI. In our case it was the right decision because he does indeed have idiopathic epilepsy. He is completely controlled on medication and his last seizure will be 6 years ago next Tuesday. He was a completely healthy greyhound other than having very dramatic seizures about every other day.

Judy, mom to Darth Vader, Bandita, And Angel

Forever in our hearts, DeeYoGee, Dani, Emmy, Andy, Heart, Saint, Valentino, Arrow, Gee, Bebe, Jilly Bean, Bullitt, Pistol, Junior, Sammie, Joey, Gizmo, Do Bee

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Again, very good points ...

 

Any results that would come back from the spinal tap would be a "ruling out" things like meningitis, encephalitis and so on and in this case, there are no issues with it being contagious to humans or other animals. In those cases I assume that antibiotics would be the drug of choice.

 

The MRI is to rule out a tumor, if there is one it would be questionable whether it is malignant and operable and as mentioned, whether it is a path I would want to pursue. If it is not operable and malignant, then her lifespan would be measured in months ... maybe a year...

 

There is also some good advice given in just getting her on seizure medicine and if necessary, I could always do an MRI and spinal tap later.

 

I'm going to get back to the neurologist and discuss some of these points.

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Bumper had a spinal tap and it is what revealed an unusually high volume of lymphocytes. The neurologist used the MRI to rule out other things and the combination of spinal tap + MRI, while expensive, saved Bumper's life as it ruled out enough "stuff" for the neuro to diagnose an autoimmune condition that had attacked Bumper's spinal cord. Get the disease under control, no more spinal swelling, and he could walk again. Unfortunately, other vets didn't take this decisive action (at the time, Bumper's hind end coordination was deterioriting rapidly) and the swelling caused permanent nerve damage, which he (and we) lives through today.

 

Sounds like your situation isn't as acute and you therefore have a bit more time, but sometimes it's best to go with the 'big' test instead of trial and error little ones. That's how we looked at it, anyway. Good luck.

Doe's Bruciebaby Doe's Bumper

Derek

Follow my Ironman journeys and life with dogs, cats and busy kids: A long road

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My greyhound Zephyr came down with encephalitis in March. It's a long story, but I'm very lucky to have him. He had seizures when he got sick and some during recovery, but has been on meds for that and it's been going well. When he first became sick they could only do an MRI because his brain had too much inflammation and it would have been too much risk to do a spinal tap. In July he went back for a repeat MRI and a spinal tap. The MRI was completely normal, but the spinal fluid still showed some abnormalities. Based on the spinal fluid results we continued treatment. My neurologist told me, and I read, that the spinal fluid actually gives much better information for diagnosing things. I was nervous with the second MRI and spinal tap, but Zephyr had no problems. If the MRI is done first I think it will show whether it's generally safe to do the spinal tap.

 

Best wishes for Lucy. Seizures are horrible and it's so scary to not know what's wrong.

 

I should add that this all developed quickly for Zephyr, less than 2 weeks, and he was showing big neurological symptoms when he went to the neurologist and he had to have this done to save him, it was an emergency situation at that point.

 

Caron

Edited by hikinghounds
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It's good information to hear that other greyhounds have had the spinal taps and suffered no ill effects and that it really made a difference in the course of events. I'm glad to hear that both dogs made it through what was serious life-threatening situations.

 

Also, to respond to an earlier comment about nutrition, both Larry and Lucy are on home-made diets. One of the concerns with seizures is food additives, pesticides, preservatives and so on but, neither Larry or Lucy ever have commercial dog food and all the food they have is human-grade. They do have store bought treats if I do not have time to make them but, they are "natural" vegan ones. I also use "gentle" cleaning products and don't use any of the "sols" (like ly-sol, pinesol) around the house.

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Also, to respond to an earlier comment about nutrition, both Larry and Lucy are on home-made diets. One of the concerns with seizures is food additives, pesticides, preservatives and so on but, neither Larry or Lucy ever have commercial dog food and all the food they have is human-grade. They do have store bought treats if I do not have time to make them but, they are "natural" vegan ones. I also use "gentle" cleaning products and don't use any of the "sols" (like ly-sol, pinesol) around the house.

 

What I meant by nutrition is a nutrient deficiency. I'm not sure what dogs need and what yours are getting and the type of seizures. But, in humans lack of magnesium and other nutrients, or a malabsorbtion thereof can lead to seizures as can blood sugar issues. I really hope she feels better soon. Seizures are scary! Hugs.

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Also, to respond to an earlier comment about nutrition, both Larry and Lucy are on home-made diets. One of the concerns with seizures is food additives, pesticides, preservatives and so on but, neither Larry or Lucy ever have commercial dog food and all the food they have is human-grade. They do have store bought treats if I do not have time to make them but, they are "natural" vegan ones. I also use "gentle" cleaning products and don't use any of the "sols" (like ly-sol, pinesol) around the house.

 

What I meant by nutrition is a nutrient deficiency. I'm not sure what dogs need and what yours are getting and the type of seizures. But, in humans lack of magnesium and other nutrients, or a malabsorbtion thereof can lead to seizures as can blood sugar issues. I really hope she feels better soon. Seizures are scary! Hugs.

 

The blood sugar is one of the items that I read about earlier and I actually started to give just a touch of molasses with breakfast and I am keeping ice cream on hand for after seizures because the sugar can drop so much. I haven't heard about the magnesium but, will investigate further and also check the other vitamin levels.

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